At least 14 dead in shooting at Batman opening.

[biggie]

To begin with the shooter would have second thoughts of going into a place that could have guns to fire back. And a person with a CC permit wouldn't have an AR and also have been trained when/where to shoot and look beyond the target. Either way, no way in hell 71 people get shot if there is a person immediately on scene with a gun to fight back.

[bigbadberry3]

To begin with the shooter would have second thoughts of going into a place that could have guns to fire back. And a person with a CC permit wouldn't have an AR and also have been trained when/where to shoot and look beyond the target. Either way, no way in hell 71 people get shot if there is a person immediately on scene with a gun to fight back.

You're making a lot of assumption there. You're assuming the CC holder hits the target, which is not guaranteed especially in a chaotic scene. What if the shooter shoots the CC holder and then takes his/her gun and then shoots more people with it?

You can't play what if.

[biggie]

You can. Any resistance is going to be more time for the cops to show up. If he's busy shooting at one person who's shooting at him there is the time for first responders and for people to run out while he's concentrated on one person.

No need for the guy to have another gun, he had 4 with 6000+ rounds.

There's reasons you can't find instances of a mass shooting where guns are allowed.

[bigbadberry3]

You can. Any resistance is going to be more time for the cops to show up. If he's busy shooting at one person who's shooting at him there is the time for first responders and for people to run out while he's concentrated on one person.

No need for the guy to have another gun, he had 4 with 6000+ rounds.

There's reasons you can't find instances of a mass shooting where guns are allowed.

What if the shooter shoots at the CC holder and just sprays the area instead of trying to focus on one by stander killing people in the area instead of never firing on the area?

You can't play what if.

[audtatious]

You can. Any resistance is going to be more time for the cops to show up. If he's busy shooting at one person who's shooting at him there is the time for first responders and for people to run out while he's concentrated on one person.

No need for the guy to have another gun, he had 4 with 6000+ rounds.

There's reasons you can't find instances of a mass shooting where guns are allowed.

What if the shooter shoots at the CC holder and just sprays the area instead of trying to focus on one by stander killing people in the area instead of never firing on the area?

You can't play what if.

yet you are using "what if" in complaining about "what if's"



What if SuperMan was watching the movie when the shooter entered?

[biggie]

What if the shooter shoots at the CC holder and just sprays the area instead of trying to focus on one by stander killing people in the area instead of never firing on the area?

You can't play what if.

Uhm, he was already doing that. There is absolutely nothing lost by shooting back in this situation. Would be different if he came there to shoot one person then left.

If you can't play what if, then risk assestment, budgeting, and everything else is useless. A lot of what ifs are going to be used, especially by politicians/anti-gun groups in the near future. What if he wasn't allowed to get that much ammo, what if he couldn't buy an AR, etc, etc.

[bigbadberry3]

yet you are using "what if" in complaining about "what if's"

No, my point is no one can say what if. I am showing how ridiculous it is to play what if.

[audtatious]

yet you are using "what if" in complaining about "what if's"

No, my point is no one can say what if. I am showing how ridiculous it is to play what if.

Somewhat true. Stats are on the pro-gun lobby as shown via limiting gun ownership has not shown a decrease in violent crime. Limiting of assault rifles (assault rifle ban) did nothing. Locations which demand households have a gun (like Kennesaw GA) have hardly any violent crime. Cities which limit or end public access to guns have some of the highest violent crime rates. Large scale killing sprees like this are always in "gun free zones". There have been many a situation where the public owning a gun has resulted in less crime and using said gun has saved lives. Yes, there are also a small percentage of accidental shootings and kids getting ahold of guns and killing/getting killed.

The "what if" in this case is relatively valid. Some people are calling for police or Marshall's to be in theaters for protection. That means they believe a "what if a cop was there with a gun" would have helped save lives.

[frapjap]

What if we ban all future showings of this movie because it obviously provokes violence?
That should work.


(SARCASM)

[audtatious]

I posted something similar elsewhere. 11 people were killed and 12 injured when a truck loaded with 23 passengers went off the road and hit trees today in TX. We need to increase regulation or ban trucks....It was not the drivers nor adults decisions that caused such death and injury.

Of course, the following reply of a gun hater was "trucks were not invented to kill people"

[bigbadberry3]

I posted something similar elsewhere. 11 people were killed and 12 injured when a truck loaded with 23 passengers went off the road and hit trees today in TX. We need to increase regulation or ban trucks....It was not the drivers nor adults decisions that caused such death and injury.

Of course, the following reply of a gun hater was "trucks were not invented to kill people"

Of course, guns were designed to shoot and destroy things as efficiently as possible. What they shoot and destroy is the owners choice.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I think even if there were people in the theater with guns, lots of people still would have died. The guy almost seemed prepared for it... he was decked out in body armor. That's not saying you don't feel it when you get hit though. To Biggie's credit, it would have at least distracted the guy while police were en-route.

Now, Concealed Carrying an AR-15 around at all times seems a little unrealistic... I would imagine it would get quite uncomfortable.

[themadscientist]

You can't play what if.

What if the shooter shoots at the CC holder and just sprays the area instead of trying to focus on one by stander killing people in the area instead of never firing on the area?

I agree what ifs are dubious despite the delicious irony of you contradicting yourself repeatedly. Let me give you something definite.

Without the presence of a hostile gun in that crowd to provide some resistance to the assailant the crowd is 100% at his mercy. Open and shut, no dispute, you are done.

The argument that the addition of one more gun to the arsenal of a man already carrying four is patently asinine. The shooter has two hands, he can only shoot two weapons at a time. He already has adequate ammo to execute every person in that theatre so the argument that he needs 32 more rounds is just as pathetic.

All of your arguments on this one appear to focus, again, on the law-abiding gun owner's weapon. Where is your concern for stopping the criminal's weapons? The fear of more injuries because there is one more gun at work, but aimed in the direction of the guy killing people? Really? are you going to say the IF of people getting hit in the crossfire is more scary than the DEFINITE of the only gun in the place being put to use executing innocent people? I'll feign shock as best I can, but I hear that argument too much to pretend it makes any more sense that the thousands of other times I've heard it.

To my fellow concealed carry holders. If we are in the same crowd and for whatever reason I am not carrying and some nutball starts firing at us you have my approval and confidence to draw your weapon and return fire. If you hit me stopping this person I will not blame you as you were doing what you had to do to stop a threat to all of us precipitated by another. I will accept death if by your actions saved someone else, someone who would have been killed in addition to me by that a$$ in absence of your reluctant, but necessary use of force. If you just wound me I cannot promise that after it is all said and done I don't razz you mercilessly and make you pay for range time for clipping me.

[themadscientist]

Of course, guns were designed to shoot and destroy things as efficiently as possible. What they shoot and destroy is the owners choice.

Wisest thing you have said to this point.

[themadscientist]

Now, Concealed Carrying an AR-15 around at all times seems a little unrealistic... I would imagine it would get quite uncomfortable.

My556 would fit under my arm and conceal with a loose coat.

I can't imagine trying to seriously do so, though. It's overkill and I do not deny really scary-looking. A quality handgun in a significant caliber with a judicious amount of available extra mags is more than adequate for any situation I could imagine. If I felt the need to leave the house with a loaded AR we would have to have rioting in the streets.

I return to my inquiry of how this guy walked through the lobby with that kind of hardware and nobody said or did anything. Alarms should have gone off in every person's head.

[AppleBonker]

To my fellow concealed carry holders. If we are in the same crowd and for whatever reason I am not carrying and some nutball starts firing at us you have my approval and confidence to draw your weapon and return fire. If you hit me stopping this person I will not blame you as you were doing what you had to do to stop a threat to all of us precipitated by another.

This. Very much so this. I would rather take my chances in the crossfire than take the guarantee of being placed directly in the psycho's cross-hairs (assuming he's given enough time to get through enough people to land on me - and unchallenged he likely will be).

[themadscientist]

Here's the little scumbag.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8a5tmBo ... r_embedded[/youtube]

[Oatmealman]

I cc a taurus raging judge under my shoulder and it's always loaded in 454 casull.tell me that s*** a** body armor he was wearing would stop a 1800fps slug,even if it did it would knock him off his a**.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I return to my inquiry of how this guy walked through the lobby with that kind of hardware and nobody said or did anything. Alarms should have gone off in every person's head.

An article I read on Yahoo stated that he bought the ticket, walked into the theater, and barely propped open one of the exits at the back of the theater (the ones that lead directly to the parkinglot). He then went out (assuming to the parkinglot to get dressed/deck himself out), and re-entered through the aforementioned propped open exit door, threw a couple smoke bombs (or something of the sort), and started raining hot lead onto the crowd. This way he would have no one behind him, and everyone in front of him.

[biggie]

I return to my inquiry of how this guy walked through the lobby with that kind of hardware and nobody said or did anything. Alarms should have gone off in every person's head.

He didn't. Bought a ticket, sat down, then walked out side door, went to car. Apparently propped the door open and returned.

My friends say I can conceal a shotgun, may I should try some things at home for entertainment.

[themadscientist]

Pretty well executed plan except the part where he got caught. I guess he wanted to get caught?

I've shot a raging judge. It's heavy for a reason, cripes man!

[biggie]

Will say that 1-2 rds to the chest and something doesn't look right I start putting the through that gas mask.

[biggie]

Pretty well executed plan except the part where he got caught. I guess he wanted to get caught?

I've shot a raging judge. It's heavy for a reason, cripes man!

He had on a couple dating/sex sites asking if women would visit him in prison. Many suspect the insanity plea, bastard.

[Rager]

in vermont you cant go to you local general store buy, cigs, beer, vodka as many guns as you want including, ak47/m14 style weapons. and as many rounds as you want, walk out of the store. as long as you are not a felon, and have a vermont DL. you canalso buy as many hand guns as you want, load them up , carry them on you with no permit required.

crazy thing is you never hear about violent gun crimes in VT, you know why? cuz EVERYONE has a gun. You are F******* crazy to think about breaking to someones house in VT or try to rob someone! gun laws are really lax her ebut i dont feel any fear at all. people her are born and raised around guns and tought how to be responible with them. i nevrer owned a gun till i mover hear and i own 2 now. i dont CC but it happy to have them if need be for protection .

so im all about people CC but it doesnt always matter when you have a nut with a hi powered rifle,
BTW some one with a small caliber pistol would get rocked by someone with an AR15 wearing body armor .

[bigbadberry3]

You can't play what if.

What if the shooter shoots at the CC holder and just sprays the area instead of trying to focus on one by stander killing people in the area instead of never firing on the area?

I agree what ifs are dubious despite the delicious irony of you contradicting yourself repeatedly. Let me give you something definite.

Without the presence of a hostile gun in that crowd to provide some resistance to the assailant the crowd is 100% at his mercy. Open and shut, no dispute, you are done.

The argument that the addition of one more gun to the arsenal of a man already carrying four is patently asinine. The shooter has two hands, he can only shoot two weapons at a time. He already has adequate ammo to execute every person in that theatre so the argument that he needs 32 more rounds is just as pathetic.

All of your arguments on this one appear to focus, again, on the law-abiding gun owner's weapon. Where is your concern for stopping the criminal's weapons? The fear of more injuries because there is one more gun at work, but aimed in the direction of the guy killing people? Really? are you going to say the IF of people getting hit in the crossfire is more scary than the DEFINITE of the only gun in the place being put to use executing innocent people? I'll feign shock as best I can, but I hear that argument too much to pretend it makes any more sense that the thousands of other times I've heard it.

To my fellow concealed carry holders. If we are in the same crowd and for whatever reason I am not carrying and some nutball starts firing at us you have my approval and confidence to draw your weapon and return fire. If you hit me stopping this person I will not blame you as you were doing what you had to do to stop a threat to all of us precipitated by another. I will accept death if by your actions saved someone else, someone who would have been killed in addition to me by that a$$ in absence of your reluctant, but necessary use of force. If you just wound me I cannot promise that after it is all said and done I don't razz you mercilessly and make you pay for range time for clipping me.

My "what ifs" were put there to prove the point that playing the what if game does nothing. Mission accomplished.

[bigbadberry3]

Is Colorado a no CC state?

[themadscientist]

Backpedal/a**-cover accomplished.

I'll take a possible better outcome over a certain bad any day. It again illustrates a difference in our perspectives. I don't mean this in an insulting way, truly.

I seek to retain maximum freedom with the understanding that I may need to respond to the misuse of said freedom by others. Your approach is to erect static restrictions that take freedoms away from everyone with the hope that it might reduce the violence. To each of us, our perspective and the policies we advocate make the most sense to us.

We have evidence to neither support nor detract from my perspective, just put some numbers on it. It neither supports or detracts because your perspective is untried in this country, it's an "if."

While there are countries that have banned guns that we could discuss, it does ignore the fact that Americans are not European, we are not Asian; we are not the same people. Americans are individualistic and violent and as much as the anti-gun people hate it, we are a "gun culture." it comes from our pioneer roots.

As a side note Pioneer= "discovering" land occupied by other people and taking it from them with a gun.

Guns are, like it or not, part of the fabric of American. European models will not effectively translate here.

[bigbadberry3]

Backpedal/a**-cover accomplished.

I'll take a possible better outcome over a certain bad any day. It again illustrates a difference in our perspectives. I don't mean this in an insulting way, truly.

I seek to retain maximum freedom with the understanding that I may need to respond to the misuse of said freedom by others. Your approach is to erect static restrictions that take freedoms away from everyone with the hope that it might reduce the violence. To each of us, our perspective and the policies we advocate make the most sense to us.

We have evidence to neither support nor detract from my perspective, just put some numbers on it. It neither supports or detracts because your perspective is untried in this country, it's an "if."

While there are countries that have banned guns that we could discuss, it does ignore the fact that Americans are not European, we are not Asian; we are not the same people. Americans are individualistic and violent and as much as the anti-gun people hate it, we are a "gun culture." it comes from our pioneer roots.

As a side note Pioneer= "discovering" land occupied by other people and taking it from them with a gun.

Guns are, like it or not, part of the fabric of American. European models will not effectively translate here.

I due not mean to show any disrespect to your position either. I believe that the situation may have gone differently if there were more fire arms in the theater. You too believe things may have gone differently and our 2 views do not mesh. Unfortunately neither of us can say in absolute what the results would have been.

[themadscientist]

Is Colorado a no CC state?

Colorado is a "shall issue" state.
http://www.usacarry.com/colorado_concea ... ation.html

Now, pay special attention to what it takes to get a permit to carry legally.

Requirements:
1. Colorado resident
2. Age 21 or older
3. Not precluded by state or federal law from owning or possessing a firearm (e.g. felony conviction, mentally incompetent)
4. Does not chronically or habitually abuse alcohol
5. Is not an unlawful user of or addicted to controlled substances
6. Is not the subject of a civil or criminal restraining order
7. Complete background check, including fingerprint verification by FBI/CBI
8. Demonstrates competence with a handgun by one of the following means:
a. evidence of experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competitions or current military service
b. certified firearms instructor
c. honorable discharge from the Armed Forces within past three years
d. proof of pistol qualification in Armed Forces within past ten years, if discharged
e. retired law enforcement with pistol qualification within past ten years
f. proof of completion of a handgun training class within the past ten years

Required Documents:
1. Completed application
2. Copy of your training certificate
3. Cop0y of your driver’s license
4. State ID Card or Passport photo
5. Application Fee

I can guarantee you the scumbag that shot these people doesn't have a permit. You seem to lump both he and licensed carriers in the same group based upon the fact that they both desire to and have possession of a gun. I am extrapolating this from your previous comments, not that you specifically said this, rather it can be reasonably led to based upon your stated opinions.

[themadscientist]

I due not mean to show any disrespect to your position either. I believe that the situation may have gone differently if there were more fire arms in the theater. You too believe things may have gone differently and our 2 views do not mesh. Unfortunately neither of us can say in absolute what the results would have been.

I think we are both in agreement that it was a terrible thing and regardless of the weapons used any time a whack job kills innocents it's repulsive and sad.