AZhitman wrote:I thank God every day for allowing me to be born an able-bodied, healthy, middle-class, heterosexual US citizen.
You so sure about the heterosexual part?
Your Thoughts: Iraq and war.
An article from a respected defence journal. (sorry it's not complete but I'm not a subsrciber)
http://www.janes.com/security/...shtml
http://www.janes.com/security/...shtml
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MaineExport
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Curiouser and curiouser.
http://www.globeandmail.com/se...ional
Let's all thank W & Co. for opening this window of opportunity for N. Korea. And please spare me the Clinton stuff. Emboldened by W's preoccupation with Iraq, Kim has found his moment to drive a hard bargain with the US. This must keep W awake at night because the kicker is that there is no payoff for a war in Korea like there is in Iraq. No oil.
http://www.globeandmail.com/se...ional
Let's all thank W & Co. for opening this window of opportunity for N. Korea. And please spare me the Clinton stuff. Emboldened by W's preoccupation with Iraq, Kim has found his moment to drive a hard bargain with the US. This must keep W awake at night because the kicker is that there is no payoff for a war in Korea like there is in Iraq. No oil.
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MaineExport
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Yeah... no payoff, we'll see. It must be nice to live in a bubble.
You're one to talk. Remember, the US has a long tradition if isolationism. Islolationism doesn't merely refer to the US's reluctance to get in some major fights (WW's I & II) and assorted other minor ones (Ruwanda, Kosovo). It has more to do with the level of global consciousness in the US. After having lived in another country, I am very aware of how little coverage in the media or knowledge there is of foreign affairs possecced by the nieces and nephews of Uncle Sam. This has changed somewhat since the 9/11 murders but the learning curve is huge as far as getting the average US citizen to think outside the borders of the 50 states and see the big picture in this rapidly shrinking world. Getting them to "think outside the box"as it were.
Hey Vimy... about your signature.... do you live in a house of mirrors?
Are you familiar with the concept of remote viewing?
Actually, I think I've got to change my sig. Too many people are trying on that shoe and it's fitting even though it's supposed to refer to people's driving habits. Please tell us that you're a slow driver.
You're one to talk. Remember, the US has a long tradition if isolationism. Islolationism doesn't merely refer to the US's reluctance to get in some major fights (WW's I & II) and assorted other minor ones (Ruwanda, Kosovo). It has more to do with the level of global consciousness in the US. After having lived in another country, I am very aware of how little coverage in the media or knowledge there is of foreign affairs possecced by the nieces and nephews of Uncle Sam. This has changed somewhat since the 9/11 murders but the learning curve is huge as far as getting the average US citizen to think outside the borders of the 50 states and see the big picture in this rapidly shrinking world. Getting them to "think outside the box"as it were.
Hey Vimy... about your signature.... do you live in a house of mirrors?
Are you familiar with the concept of remote viewing?
Actually, I think I've got to change my sig. Too many people are trying on that shoe and it's fitting even though it's supposed to refer to people's driving habits. Please tell us that you're a slow driver.
WDRacing wrote:I have a quick question for the avid viewers of this thread. When we go to war with Iraq, are all of you going to keep the same opinion? Are you going to support your country or continue to bad mouth the White House.
This is an important question. Think before you type.
WD
If war comes about, I am 100% for the West but I'll continue to question the White House. You'll understand my conviction that there will be WW III between East and West eventually and I am totally for the Western World. (The Cold War was the final chapter of WW II, IMHO)
BTW, AZ. There is a refinery fire happening right here in Chicagoland as I write. Will there be no end to your generousity. You just give, give, give with nary a peep.
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by VimyJ "]You're one to talk.
WOW... devastating comeback! One major difference... I don't presume to know more than 95% of the US population, and I don't pretend to have all the answers.
Remember, the US has a long tradition if isolationism.
Ahhh yes.... we're a very 'hands-off' country...certainly not the most generous nation on this little spinning mass. :rolleyes
Islolationism doesn't merely refer to the US's reluctance to get in some major fights (WW's I & II) and assorted other minor ones (Ruwanda, Kosovo). It has more to do with the level of global consciousness in the US.
You've got to be kidding me?! Yes, we have our fair share of idiots (unfortunately too many of them think they are more enlightened than the rest of us), but as a whole we are a very globally-aware nation. If your inflated ego could get outside the confines of your own home, you might be able to see that.
After having lived in another country, I am very aware of how little coverage in the media or knowledge there is of foreign affairs possecced by the nieces and nephews of Uncle Sam.
Oh, darn it... I forgot you're not one of us! WHEW! <(wipes his brow clean of perspiration).
Vimy... not all of us get our news and current affairs while standing on our proverbial soapbox! Come down and join the rest of us and maybe you'll have a little better perspective.
Please tell us that you're a slow driver.
D'uhh huh... I don't get it?:jump
WOW... devastating comeback! One major difference... I don't presume to know more than 95% of the US population, and I don't pretend to have all the answers.
Remember, the US has a long tradition if isolationism.
Ahhh yes.... we're a very 'hands-off' country...certainly not the most generous nation on this little spinning mass. :rolleyes
Islolationism doesn't merely refer to the US's reluctance to get in some major fights (WW's I & II) and assorted other minor ones (Ruwanda, Kosovo). It has more to do with the level of global consciousness in the US.
You've got to be kidding me?! Yes, we have our fair share of idiots (unfortunately too many of them think they are more enlightened than the rest of us), but as a whole we are a very globally-aware nation. If your inflated ego could get outside the confines of your own home, you might be able to see that.
After having lived in another country, I am very aware of how little coverage in the media or knowledge there is of foreign affairs possecced by the nieces and nephews of Uncle Sam.
Oh, darn it... I forgot you're not one of us! WHEW! <(wipes his brow clean of perspiration).
Vimy... not all of us get our news and current affairs while standing on our proverbial soapbox! Come down and join the rest of us and maybe you'll have a little better perspective.
Please tell us that you're a slow driver.
D'uhh huh... I don't get it?:jump
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AZhitman
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by VimyJ "]If war comes about, I am 100% for the West but I'll continue to question the White House. You'll understand my conviction that there will be WW III between East and West eventually and I am totally for the Western World. (The Cold War was the final chapter of WW II, IMHO)
Glad to see some nationalism outta our boy Vim - I told you guys he's not ALL bad. By the way - This is the most CORRECT (i.e., universally true) thing you've posted yet, Mike. One need only remember back to Sunday school to be aware of this. Folks, spend a day with your favorite beverage and the Book of Revelations and you'll understand this implicitly.
BTW, AZ. There is a refinery fire happening right here in Chicagoland as I write. Will there be no end to your generousity. You just give, give, give with nary a peep.
Could be that I'm retarded, but I don't see the connection. Perhaps it is as Mike (and many a vanquished Ring foe) says, and I AM indeed the harbinger of all things bad.
Which is cool with me.
Glad to see some nationalism outta our boy Vim - I told you guys he's not ALL bad. By the way - This is the most CORRECT (i.e., universally true) thing you've posted yet, Mike. One need only remember back to Sunday school to be aware of this. Folks, spend a day with your favorite beverage and the Book of Revelations and you'll understand this implicitly.
BTW, AZ. There is a refinery fire happening right here in Chicagoland as I write. Will there be no end to your generousity. You just give, give, give with nary a peep.
Could be that I'm retarded, but I don't see the connection. Perhaps it is as Mike (and many a vanquished Ring foe) says, and I AM indeed the harbinger of all things bad.
Which is cool with me.
WOW... devastating comeback! One major difference... I don't presume to know more than 95% of the US population, and I don't pretend to have all the answers.
I don't pretend to be more informed than 95%, of the US population but I am. I also don't pretend to know all that much either. Scary, eh?
certainly not the most generous nation on this little spinning mass.
The US has the lowest per capita rate as a percentage of GDP of foreign aid in the developed world.
You've got to be kidding me?! Yes, we have our fair share of idiots (unfortunately too many of them think they are more enlightened than the rest of us), but as a whole we are a very globally-aware nation. If your inflated ego could get outside the confines of your own home, you might be able to see that.
Please try rereading the original post. I have lived in countries other than the US and base my statement upon fact. The US is a provincial place when it comes to global consciousness. It's a big province, though, so I can see how people in the US might not be able to see the forest for the trees.
Vimy... not all of us get our news and current affairs while standing on our proverbial soapbox! Come down and join the rest of us and maybe you'll have a little better perspective.
Boy don't I know it. Most US view pionts come from staring at thier navels. How ya going to get Vimy back on the farm after he's seen Paris (to paraphrase a WW I song). Climb down to a lower level? How typically US. Descend to the lowest common denominator and get a watery excuse for a beer as a reward. Dumb and fun. What could be more "American" than that?
D'uhh huh... I don't get it?:jump
That's not surprising. You're a drummer aren't you?
I don't pretend to be more informed than 95%, of the US population but I am. I also don't pretend to know all that much either. Scary, eh?
certainly not the most generous nation on this little spinning mass.
The US has the lowest per capita rate as a percentage of GDP of foreign aid in the developed world.
You've got to be kidding me?! Yes, we have our fair share of idiots (unfortunately too many of them think they are more enlightened than the rest of us), but as a whole we are a very globally-aware nation. If your inflated ego could get outside the confines of your own home, you might be able to see that.
Please try rereading the original post. I have lived in countries other than the US and base my statement upon fact. The US is a provincial place when it comes to global consciousness. It's a big province, though, so I can see how people in the US might not be able to see the forest for the trees.
Vimy... not all of us get our news and current affairs while standing on our proverbial soapbox! Come down and join the rest of us and maybe you'll have a little better perspective.
Boy don't I know it. Most US view pionts come from staring at thier navels. How ya going to get Vimy back on the farm after he's seen Paris (to paraphrase a WW I song). Climb down to a lower level? How typically US. Descend to the lowest common denominator and get a watery excuse for a beer as a reward. Dumb and fun. What could be more "American" than that?
D'uhh huh... I don't get it?:jump
That's not surprising. You're a drummer aren't you?
AZhitman wrote:
Could be that I'm retarded, but I don't see the connection. Perhaps it is as Mike (and many a vanquished Ring foe) says, and I AM indeed the harbinger of all things bad.
Which is cool with me.
I was just refering to your penchant for consuming mass quantities of fossil fuels and never complaining of the costs.
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lessthanjakejohn
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Every president has their failures, while Clintron was prez, the economy was in good shape(thats his plus, down is foreign matters). Bush handels foreign matters, but the economy is bad. Thats just every president, Ups and Downs.
During the first few years of the Clinton Admin he may of helped the economy but during the last years he sat there and watched. Im not saying the George Bush isn't at fault either but Clinton could of regulated business more and have kept awful things like Enron from happening.
P.S. I got this crazy message that the forums were down this weekend after I got back from snowboarding, It said:"All forumes are closed for the nite, gremlins in the server, go watch tv or sumthing, the monarch". I havne't been abble to read the Forums since I got back. Daunttless said all was well and he didn't get anything like that, did anyone else?
During the first few years of the Clinton Admin he may of helped the economy but during the last years he sat there and watched. Im not saying the George Bush isn't at fault either but Clinton could of regulated business more and have kept awful things like Enron from happening.
P.S. I got this crazy message that the forums were down this weekend after I got back from snowboarding, It said:"All forumes are closed for the nite, gremlins in the server, go watch tv or sumthing, the monarch". I havne't been abble to read the Forums since I got back. Daunttless said all was well and he didn't get anything like that, did anyone else?
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by VimyJ The US has the lowest per capita rate as a percentage of GDP of foreign aid in the developed world.
Which speaks volumes about our GDP, ayy!
though, so I can see how people in the US might not be able to see the forest for the trees.Boy don't I know it. Most US view pionts come from staring at thier navels.
Spoken by the living testament.
Climb down to a lower level?
If by that you mean giving yourself an intellectual colonic... then yes please climb down.
How typically US.
Yes, in the US those that can... do... the rest join internet forums and try to spread the 'good word'
Descend to the lowest common denominator
No, for you that would be an ascent (yes I know... impossible in theory ... yet in practice it somehow works).
That's not surprising. You're a drummer aren't you?
Percussionist none the less.
Hey... how do you know if the drum riser is level?
The drool comes out both sides of the drummer's mouth.
What do Ginger Baker and Denny's coffee have in common?
They both suck without cream.
How do you know when a drummer is knocking at your door?
The knocking keeps speeding up.
How else would you know when a drummer is knocking at your door?
He doesn't know when to come in.
What's the last words the drummer says at band practice?
"Hey guys, lets try one of my songs!"
Which speaks volumes about our GDP, ayy!
though, so I can see how people in the US might not be able to see the forest for the trees.Boy don't I know it. Most US view pionts come from staring at thier navels.
Spoken by the living testament.
Climb down to a lower level?
If by that you mean giving yourself an intellectual colonic... then yes please climb down.
How typically US.
Yes, in the US those that can... do... the rest join internet forums and try to spread the 'good word'
Descend to the lowest common denominator
No, for you that would be an ascent (yes I know... impossible in theory ... yet in practice it somehow works).
That's not surprising. You're a drummer aren't you?
Percussionist none the less.
Hey... how do you know if the drum riser is level?
The drool comes out both sides of the drummer's mouth.
What do Ginger Baker and Denny's coffee have in common?
They both suck without cream.
How do you know when a drummer is knocking at your door?
The knocking keeps speeding up.
How else would you know when a drummer is knocking at your door?
He doesn't know when to come in.
What's the last words the drummer says at band practice?
"Hey guys, lets try one of my songs!"
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MaineExport
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SilviaLuvr
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lessthen: i got that same message??
i think the whole war is because bush is a warattic (if thats even a word) and he wants revenge for what happen to his dad. i think that Bush is just some country redneck that grew up around guns and he just want to test out his biggest and baddest guns. i think bush did F*k up in his first few days in office. i think that bush is an idiot to be honest. i mean come on he wants everyone thats hates the US to turn in there weapons come on! thats like entering a race and telling all your oppnents not to go until you reach the finish line. then he's going to get pissed off b/c they are not doing it. This is why no one is backing us up in this bush vs the ppl that tried and killed bush senior war b/c everybody else sees how stupid bush plains are. damn i luv this country anywhere else we would all be killed right where we sit for talking about our prez.
i think the whole war is because bush is a warattic (if thats even a word) and he wants revenge for what happen to his dad. i think that Bush is just some country redneck that grew up around guns and he just want to test out his biggest and baddest guns. i think bush did F*k up in his first few days in office. i think that bush is an idiot to be honest. i mean come on he wants everyone thats hates the US to turn in there weapons come on! thats like entering a race and telling all your oppnents not to go until you reach the finish line. then he's going to get pissed off b/c they are not doing it. This is why no one is backing us up in this bush vs the ppl that tried and killed bush senior war b/c everybody else sees how stupid bush plains are. damn i luv this country anywhere else we would all be killed right where we sit for talking about our prez.
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SilviaLuvr
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Today it was reported that Turkey wants $30 billion to approve stationing of US troops on its soil. W & Co. had originally offered $24 billion. How much other money is being spent buying allies?
The Canadian goverement is saying that it must see Security Council approval before participating. However, Canada is taking over Kabul from the US freeing up 3000 US soldiers. Canada has also taken charge of the containment naval task force in the Persian Gulf. They command all ships except the Carrier group of an aircraft carrier and its immediate escort ships.
It is interesting how the game gets played. Turkey wants a bundle of US taxpayers dollars.
It's not commonly understood in the US, but Canada has a very good reputation in the world community. It is regarded as a very fair minded country while still being a very close ally of the US. Canada is trying to maintain this standing in the UN but also making sure that it has a place at the US banquet by relieving US forces from their duties in the continuing "War on Terror".
The Australian Prime Minister came right out and said Australia's security depends on the US in the South Pacific so it is getting right into bed with Uncle Sam.
70% of the British population is against the war but Blair (but his own Labour Party less and less) wants to tag along with the US so that it mght retain some regard as a world player. They also have a long history of being involved in the screwups in the middle east since WW I.
Anyway you look at it, this is going to cost the US taxpayer dearly! Tax cuts! Come on! This is going to very negatively affct the standard of living in the US for years and decades to come.
At what point does the accounting challenged W begin to see this war could turn into a very bad failure. Be aware W is the guy who never turned a profit on an oil deal in his whole life! This is not the kind of man I trust running the country and making foreign policy decsions. Even W supporters should make sure they are not wearing blinders.
The Canadian goverement is saying that it must see Security Council approval before participating. However, Canada is taking over Kabul from the US freeing up 3000 US soldiers. Canada has also taken charge of the containment naval task force in the Persian Gulf. They command all ships except the Carrier group of an aircraft carrier and its immediate escort ships.
It is interesting how the game gets played. Turkey wants a bundle of US taxpayers dollars.
It's not commonly understood in the US, but Canada has a very good reputation in the world community. It is regarded as a very fair minded country while still being a very close ally of the US. Canada is trying to maintain this standing in the UN but also making sure that it has a place at the US banquet by relieving US forces from their duties in the continuing "War on Terror".
The Australian Prime Minister came right out and said Australia's security depends on the US in the South Pacific so it is getting right into bed with Uncle Sam.
70% of the British population is against the war but Blair (but his own Labour Party less and less) wants to tag along with the US so that it mght retain some regard as a world player. They also have a long history of being involved in the screwups in the middle east since WW I.
Anyway you look at it, this is going to cost the US taxpayer dearly! Tax cuts! Come on! This is going to very negatively affct the standard of living in the US for years and decades to come.
At what point does the accounting challenged W begin to see this war could turn into a very bad failure. Be aware W is the guy who never turned a profit on an oil deal in his whole life! This is not the kind of man I trust running the country and making foreign policy decsions. Even W supporters should make sure they are not wearing blinders.
Quote »At what point does the accounting challenged W begin to see this war could turn into a very bad failure. Be aware W is the guy who never turned a profit on an oil deal in his whole life! This is not the kind of man I trust running the country and making foreign policy decsions. Even W supporters should make sure they are not wearing blinders.[/quote] GOD i've had enough of your ****, vimyJ. The only person wearing blinders here is YOU. So what if he didnt get a ****ing oil deal, its blinding YOU in everything he does! And stop pretending to be anti war, the only thing iv heard you rag on here is BUSH and his supporters. If you were anti war you would be pushing for sadam to disarm...the only real way to avert the inevitable. Yet i have only heard you criticize the big bad US...like iraq is some innocent bystander. Stop being a little bitter ***** with a skinned knee because bush won the election, and move on. ****!
Quote »i think bush might have some sort of inferiority complex, you know overcompensating for a small **** by trying to act all tough and attacking everybody[/quote] Quote » think the whole war is because bush is a warattic (if thats even a word) and he wants revenge for what happen to his dad. i think that Bush is just some country redneck that grew up around guns and he just want to test out his biggest and baddest guns. i think bush did F*k up in his first few days in office. i think that bush is an idiot to be honest. i mean come on he wants everyone thats hates the US to turn in there weapons come on! thats like entering a race and telling all your oppnents not to go until you reach the finish line. then he's going to get pissed off b/c they are not doing it. This is why no one is backing us up in this bush vs the ppl that tried and killed bush senior war b/c everybody else sees how stupid bush plains are. damn i luv this country anywhere else we would all be killed right where we sit for talking about our prez.[/quote] I think you two are bitter over your lack of manhood and increasing beer gut... dont agree with that? Well i have as much fact behind that statement as you do behind yours. you know nothing of what you are talking about, not a shred of supporting evidence. Stop making up **** please, and go read a history book instead of projecting.
89sxr:
I rooted for Bush during the election and LOVE his domestic policies, but I dont think Vimy deserves such a attack just because he dares to think for himself.nor does anyone else, dont pull this discussion into the gutter!
As for the substance:
Anyone who has followed this closely from day one, can't help but have a few misgivings.
I am not against war in general, actually its good for my career, but to take the original reason why "we " were "against" Iraq ( the invasion of Kuweit which actually deserved applause, cuz finally a country dared to challlenge the divide and rule borders draw by the brits) and now say they are a "threat" cuz they <might> have WMD.We claim Iraq is a threat cuz they Might give WMD to terrorlst cuz Iraq is our enemy?
"we" MADE Iraq an enemy for no good reason other than geopolitics, they would not be an enemy even after the Gulf war, if it weren't for our elites constant fomenting+ milking a crisis for political gain.
Iraq has alwasy FOUGHT islamic fundamentalists and has been among the most secular and progressive regimes in the region (unlike our "allies").
Many countires in the region have WMD Iraq almost certainly has very little.yes, maybe a bit here and there hidden away but you cannot have a useful arsenal under an insepction regime.
Other countries have a much more intact arsenal (Israel for example, which is currently engaged in settling the west bank against the will of its inhabitants).
The tendentious reporting on some of our news channels ("FOX special: how one underground hospital in the region is bracing for saddams worst, more at 11"," News special: Some PPL say the chemical attack was not done by Iraq! Do they have a political agenda?more at 11", ), is simply too much for many minds, who are raised in an environment that declares any war "we" are in, as inherently good, just because "we" are in it..
Be proud you are witnessing history:
A more clearcut/textbook case of artificially engineering a war out of no where, we haven't seen since the Spanish American War (read up on it a bit folks and you will be surprised bu the parallels, the more things change...)
It wont matter one bit, that it will be realtively short and successful war, because the reason most americans are buying into it, is because its sold as part of the "war against Terror" when it is really very much in the way, of the war against terror.
Fred...
PS I didn't really want to post anything more on this subject, but your unqualified attack on one of our nicest and more thoughtful members leaves me little choice.
I rooted for Bush during the election and LOVE his domestic policies, but I dont think Vimy deserves such a attack just because he dares to think for himself.nor does anyone else, dont pull this discussion into the gutter!
As for the substance:
Anyone who has followed this closely from day one, can't help but have a few misgivings.
I am not against war in general, actually its good for my career, but to take the original reason why "we " were "against" Iraq ( the invasion of Kuweit which actually deserved applause, cuz finally a country dared to challlenge the divide and rule borders draw by the brits) and now say they are a "threat" cuz they <might> have WMD.We claim Iraq is a threat cuz they Might give WMD to terrorlst cuz Iraq is our enemy?
"we" MADE Iraq an enemy for no good reason other than geopolitics, they would not be an enemy even after the Gulf war, if it weren't for our elites constant fomenting+ milking a crisis for political gain.
Iraq has alwasy FOUGHT islamic fundamentalists and has been among the most secular and progressive regimes in the region (unlike our "allies").
Many countires in the region have WMD Iraq almost certainly has very little.yes, maybe a bit here and there hidden away but you cannot have a useful arsenal under an insepction regime.
Other countries have a much more intact arsenal (Israel for example, which is currently engaged in settling the west bank against the will of its inhabitants).
The tendentious reporting on some of our news channels ("FOX special: how one underground hospital in the region is bracing for saddams worst, more at 11"," News special: Some PPL say the chemical attack was not done by Iraq! Do they have a political agenda?more at 11", ), is simply too much for many minds, who are raised in an environment that declares any war "we" are in, as inherently good, just because "we" are in it..
Be proud you are witnessing history:
A more clearcut/textbook case of artificially engineering a war out of no where, we haven't seen since the Spanish American War (read up on it a bit folks and you will be surprised bu the parallels, the more things change...)
It wont matter one bit, that it will be realtively short and successful war, because the reason most americans are buying into it, is because its sold as part of the "war against Terror" when it is really very much in the way, of the war against terror.
Fred...
PS I didn't really want to post anything more on this subject, but your unqualified attack on one of our nicest and more thoughtful members leaves me little choice.
