Your Thoughts: Iraq and war.

[TrueSlide]

What are you guys opinions of this war in the middle east(again).Personally I disagree with this war, we should of killed him the first, plus bush is a war monger and is after oil control. I think this time we are just trying to start ****, and bush is gonna use the military as his pawns for his plan, while he sits in the white house snorting crack and drinking booze.Should we goto war with Iraq?

[ninjak84]

The United States is in a place where they need a war for their economy. It's a shame you have such a horrible foreign policy that gives your citizens a bad name to the rest of the world. When a person wrote "One bad apple can spoil an entire bushel", he obviously was thinking of our world's leaders. It isn't JUST the USA with a bad foreign policy, lots of others do it too. They just don't do it as public as the States.

I hope the US can find a better economic patch than war.

[Repo Man]

What are you guys opinions of this war in the middle east(again).Personally I disagree with this war, we should of killed him the first, plus bush is a war monger and is after oil control. I think this time we are just trying to start ****, and bush is gonna use the military as his pawns for his plan, while he sits in the white house snorting crack and drinking booze. Down with bush!!!!

Hey TrueSlide, where did you do your basic training? What about AIT? Have you been to PLDC yet, or it's equivalent (depending on branch of service)? What about special schools? JRTC? NTC?

Why do you think President Bush is a war monger? Would it be better to have a two-faced, weak-kneed, dope smoking, adultering liar in the White House still? Bush is busy cleaning up the mess left by the Clinton Administration. Had Clinton dealt with Bin Laden when he should have, we wouldn't have most of the problems over there that we have today. UN Inspectors were kicked out of Iraq on his watch too. What did he do? Not a goddamn thing. It took 9/11 for the majority of the citizens of this country to see we had a problem. Well, the military knew we had a problem long before that. Remember the USS Cole? The Navy sure as hell does, and so does the rest of the military. The terrorists declared war on us long before 9/11, but it took the deaths of thousands of civilians for us to take notice. Sad.

Do you know why there is a book and a movie called "Black Hawk Down"? Because it wasn't politically correct for Billy Clinton to give those soldiers the tools they needed to go into the Bakara Market and complete their mission. But I'm sure you don't understand the concept of armor supporting infantry and vice-versa. I won't even start on air support. Had Bush been in office, there would be no "Black Hawk Down".

I could write a dissertation on why your post is completely ignorant, but NICO doesn't have that much bandwidth. Stick to posting about things that you understand.

Get rid of that stupid avatar while you're at it.

[Stoneage_Turbo]

i dunno , as a "PAWN" (as you put it) id say war is what we need to do , we need to remove saddam and his minons from power to try to stabilize the mideast , now whos to say whoever takes saddams place wont be just as bad? there isnt a real guarntee . if bastards like saddam are left to do what they want they will continue to supply terrosists with more refined means of destorying our people , instaed of our planes they would use the biolocial weapons saddam has supposedly made . in my opion the korea situation is similar , we are worried that the koreans will supply saddam with weapons that he could use against whoever gets in his way , also one of the missles they supposedly devloped can reach alaska from its home in korea , they can conciveably attack the US , more importantly , my current backyard ..this is all based on what can very well be war time propoganda or it could be fact , untill years from now we will never know the whole real story

on the other hand id would like to get out of the military this april , if we go to war i wont be able to leave untill we are finsihed stomping a mud hole in every bastard repsonisble for sept 11th (i have no quarrles with that), that being the case i would like to see them hold off for awhile (selfish isnt it?) so i can get out and go to collage before i have so much time invested in the military i would end up makeing it my career , after 20 years one can retire fromt he airforce , so if one spent 8 years in they are almost halfway there , makeing it stupid to leave

as for my commander in cheif , according to military law , im not allowed to doubt his postion, hes running the show now , and unless you are running next year and can do a beatter job then i wouldnt say much

by the way the phrase " Down with bush" could launch a investigation on you by the secret service if certain lucky eyes see it , hitman works for the governament and so do i , and a few others , the right person sees it wrong you could end up turned in ........not a threat but please watch what you say , some people are ****s ..and yes i know about the 1rst ammenment and all that so dont go there , you can say what you want , yes , but you also have the right to be punished or investiagted when it ccan be interprited as a threat to our president or national security:patriot

[MasterMan]

this isnt a good subject to talk about on this board because we will get people pis_sed off.. anyways.. how the hell can u nock clinton?! he was one of the best presidents we have had look at how good our econmy(sp?) WAs doing.. now look at it, we are at an all time low.. bush is a moron that cant run a country, and the only reason he became president is because he riged the election. he is killing people over oil wich is wrong. its a war on greed not over someone runing an airplaine into a building. what he is doing is murder and he should be locked up for it. i know flame my spelling and whatnot because i know u will and im gonna stick with my views.

[Stoneage_Turbo]

damn repo , your faster than me ...gotta get freddy on this , get somemore PAWNS opinons......

[MaineExport]

Bomb the ever-loving-b'jaysus out of them.

Bush is no war monger, he inherited a really bad and unbalanced situation in the middle east that Clinton decided to ignore. Look where that got us.

I don't blame you for your opinion, because you (nor I for that matter) know a FRACTION of the true story. It isn't a simple little situation, that if we ignore it then it will go away. Our government acts in the best interest of our country and all of its people. That means that a balanced political environment must exist outside of our little land mass. We have a vested interest in a stabilized world community and the government does its best to maintain that.

I wonder what it will take for these blithering leberal idiots to realize that we NEED to take care of this problem once and for all. How many of you little, whiney, brain-washed hippies would change your opinion in a heart beat if you lost a loved one in the 9/11 attacks? Is it going to take something like that AGAIN for people to wake up and realize that the US governmen is NOT the bad guy?

We are far from perfect, but we try to promote peaceful resolutions to the world's problems. These terrorists and middle-eastern sand dwellers would rather kill innocent people to force their opinion on the world. Our methods may not be flawless, but I firmly believe we are on the moral high ground here.

[Stoneage_Turbo]

i still think regan was the best prez weve had in awhile , we have the technology , lets rebuild him ...digital regan baby !!!!

[MaineExport]

Snorting crack sounds painful. And after going to all the trouble of cooking it down to base... why chop it up again? Just smoke it and leave the snorting to the coke heads. And Bush doesn't indulge anymore.... he's way too mellow.

[MaineExport]

this isnt a good subject to talk about on this board because we will get people pis_sed off..

Amen.... why didn't you stop there.

anyways.. how the hell can u nock clinton?! he was one of the best presidents we have had look at how good our econmy(sp?) WAs doing.. now look at it,

The economy is a tricky little thing. Whether it is good or not is all a matter of perspective. For example.... during Clinton's time in Washington, unemployment was very low. That means there are MORE people paying taxes, yet income tax was higher than ever. If more people are working, why were they taking even more of our hard earned money. Low unemployment is not good. There is a magic little balance of 4's, and when unemployment drops below 4% it's a BAD thing. Why? because it fuels inflation which is the WORST thing that can happen to an economy. This is all basic macro economics.

Long story short.... the economic indicators that the media uses are self serving to say the least. The actual health of the economy is measured with ten basic indicators, but a true picture can't be seen without several hundred. The media typically uses two... unemployment and interest rates. Sometimes they actually look at the GDP, but even that can be misleading.

bush is a moron that cant run a country, and the only reason he became president is because he riged the election.

Come on man.... who....... nevermind.

he is killing people over oil wich is wrong. its a war on greed not over someone runing an airplaine into a building.

That is debatable! How does Bush profit from this. It's not greed, Bush is doing what he thinks is best for our nation. How would it be in his best iterest to do otherwise?

what he is doing is murder and he should be locked up for it. i know flame my spelling and whatnot because i know u will and im gonna stick with my views.

I don't care about spelling... mine sucks too. I applaud anyone with strong conviction in their views..... even when I don't agree.

[TrueSlide]

Oh no doubt, I agree with his war on terrorism 100%.

But it seems like every situation bush gets in, something about bombing or whatever has to mentioned. But I also feel that this Iraqi situations is more then what is told, I mean the bush family is all about oil, and what better place then a country america already despises(ya probley far fetched, but along things in life are).

Repo, you get so angry, I asked for your opinions on things, not diss on the opinions of others, and there are plenty of people who view bush the same way, who knows he may feel like he has some shoes to fill, with his father as a former president.

I just read(not sure how true), that the bush family's oil company has dealt business with osama bin laden, and even back in the day they made deals with hitler, drug cartels, gun smugglers and so on. I honestly see this Iraq situation just a way to increase "the family business".

Thanks Stoneage, I didn't even think about it like that, I should change in case someone thinks something.

Thanks to the people who didn't flame, and respect people's opinions. And btw repo, I think I will keep my avatar, I have grown fond of it.

Probley more I can say, but I forgot, oh well.

[Sopdadope]

The United States is in a place where they need a war for their economy. It's a shame you have such a horrible foreign policy that gives your citizens a bad name to the rest of the world. When a person wrote "One bad apple can spoil an entire bushel", he obviously was thinking of our world's leaders. It isn't JUST the USA with a bad foreign policy, lots of others do it too. They just don't do it as public as the States.

I hope the US can find a better economic patch than war.

Can't quite agree with you here. War should and is the last resort to war, but to say the gov is using the war with Iraq is a remedy to the struggling economy is a bit much. The fact to the matter is, there's a man in Iraq who more than likely has extremely powerful weapons at his disposable and more than a few screws loose upstairs...

I usually keep my mouth shut on topics like this but I'm absolutely sick of the US-bashing that's ubiquitous in every online forum. The U.S. is in a difficult position, in fact an impossible one. Every move our gov makes will be looked under a microscope and scrutizined.

[Repo Man]

Repo, you get so angry, I asked for your opinions on things, not diss on the opinions of others, and there are plenty of people who view bush the same way, who knows he may feel like he has some shoes to fill, with his father as a former president.

Thanks to the people who didn't flame, and respect people's opinions. And btw repo, I think I will keep my avatar, I have grown fond of it.

How should I respect your opinion on this when you list your occupation as "Professional Serial Killer for hire"? You also have an avatar that promotes killing people and then you post something like this? Have you ever even seen so much as a picture of someone who has had their brains blown out? It's not very pretty.

And as far as my being angry, you haven't seen me angry. Nor have I flamed you. Show me where I called you any names. I have simply asked you a series of questions for which you have no answers. I called your post ignorant, which it is. I did not call you stupid. There is a marked difference.

Yes, there are people that view President Bush in the same way. Then there are those of us that do not. Don't believe everything you read, TrueSlide.

[TrueSlide]

My sig and avatar are just in fun, but that is irrelevant to this post. And no I have never seen a persons brain blown nor do I want too, I have heard the horror stories though from my dad who was a emt for a very active rescue station.

I have not been in the military, I thought about joining the air force, which my dad was in for a long time and has served in the gulf war, so Iam not showing any disrespect to any branch of the military, my hat is off to the people that did die and willing to die for this country, its heritage and the people apart of it.

I take it you are in the military? I guess the military sees and hears/understands alot more then what the average civilian is able to have access, I guess thats why a good % of the time a soldiers view is different from your every day civilian.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by TrueSlide "]Oh no doubt, I agree with his war on terrorism 100%

Then you must fail to see the correlation between terrorism and Sadam (not necessarily the government of Iraq).

But I also feel that this Iraqi situations is more then what is told, I mean the bush family is all about oil, and what better place then a country america already despises(ya probley far fetched, but along things in life are).

If this was about Bush's greed for oil... then the Bush FAMILY (not the US) must attack Iraq and take control. Freeing the people of Iraq and replacing their government will only HELP bring more oil here.... cutting in on the Bush family oil profits.

I just read(not sure how true), that the bush family's oil company has dealt business with osama bin laden, and even back in the day they made deals with hitler, drug cartels, gun smugglers and so on. I honestly see this Iraq situation just a way to increase "the family business".

Again... the present situation would benefit the Bush family oil business more than it would if we were on better trade terms with oil-produing countries.



Thanks to the people who didn't flame, and respect people's opinions.

Absolutely!

[miteymax86]

I know there are a few of you guys who are in the military, and it's your job to believe whatever your CO tells you and so on, as I have heard plenty of stories from my uncle who served in Vietnam along with his 2 brothers. Anyway, I'm voting against war with Iraq until a stabilization of the North Korea situation, that's where Bush is more ***-backward than anything, North Korea is far more a threat to world stability than Iraq at this time. Also, if you ask my Uncle(my other Uncle unfortunately has passed, and his brother, my father I haven't heard from since I was 4) he'll let you know that war is hell, and that it should only be a last resort from diplomacy

[MaineExport]

the North Korea situation, that's where Bush is more ***-backward than anything, North Korea is far more a threat to world stability than Iraq at this time.

I'm not trying to flame.... I would honestly like to hear your thoughts as to why Korea is more threatening than Iraq.

Korea (as far as we know) doesn't have ICBM's to deliver nukes. The only threat would be to their neighboring countries. Most of their neighbors have noting to worry about. Iraq doesn't have ICBM either, but they HAVE and WILL use weapons against their neighbors. We also have MUCH better relations with Korea than Iraq, and they are far more likely to resort to diplomatic resolutions.

I don't understand why people say we should use diplomacy with Iraq and try to coddle them, but then say we should use military force against Korea. It makes no sense.

[APEXi240]

Originally posted by ninjak84 "]The United States is in a place where they need a war for their economy.I hope the US can find a better economic patch than war.

Clinton was in office during a booming economy for 8 years and it is quite obvious he did nothing militarily...so I don't see how economy isn't dependant on war. War isn't today what it was, there will be no economic boom caused by was such was the case in WW2, this is a misconception.

Everyone sees this war with one perspective....oil. Everyone jumps on the US talking about our reasons for going to war. Oil IS obviously a reason. The entire Middle East is extrememly volitile right now. It needs to be brought under control. They are the holders of the largest oil reserves in the world, and the entire world (especially the US) is dependant on this. I'm sure if some of you were paying 2.50-3.00s a gallon you'd be less opposed to removing Saddam. The world's need for oil is simply inargueable, its not like just the prices in the US will go up, Canadians too will feel the effect, so do be so harsh when considering this reason.

Other countries are quick to jump, but I really haven't seen any other European or North/South American countries get targeted like the US, we simply need to defend ourselves and make the Middle East safe. Constant turmoil in that area has a history of being dangerous, do we really want to see what happens when it erupts? I know I don't, and it seems thats its been festering for way to long. Terrorists and others are bred and thrive in these areas, and this is not good for anyone. I for one think it is good that we are going to war, and my thanks and deep gratitude go out to those defending me.

Its funny to bash US foreign policy. The US dollar for dollar gives more foreign aid than any other country. We have food drops, humanitary aid, and give political and military support to countries....When our buildings dropped who came to our aid? Who helped out with digging out remains and physically showing support? What rehabilitation monies did other countries present to a still struggling NYC? We consistantly help other countries and at our time of need who helped us? There was a very good article written by a Canadian about lack of international sympathy and support after the attacks. No one can really knock US policy until they look at their own. The US wants to fix situations that not only benifit the US, but the world as a whole.

Finally, Bush is not a war monger, he is doing what Clinton should have done 5 or 6 years ago. People like Trueslide and Ninja really have to look at the other side of the coin.

[miteymax86]

Any nuclear is to be avoided at all costs, whether or not the US is involved, and we do kinda have something at stake as far as trade relations with South Korea, I mean, c'mon where do you think your Hyundai comes from? Furthermore I never stated that we should go to war against North Korea and how is Iraq in any way a threat to our country? I mean seriously, what are they going to do to the US directly? Jack up oil prices? Or is "terror" their big threat? Whoop-dee-freaking doo(yawn). Bottom line is, as terrible as war is, nuclear war is that much worse, and therefore a bigger concern on a global scale. Anyway, this all boils down to Israel's existence and the need for a true Palestinian state and their need to co-exist peacefully rather than Israel's current policy of bombing the hell out of whomever they think is responsible for the latest suicide bombing. Once Israel is reigned in and a Palestinian state established it will be less of an issue, something that Clinton was actually doing a good job of working toward if anyone cared to notice. I'll break it down for y'all it's about1. Religion(Jews pissed off that people still think they don't have a right to be there and using their military strength which we provided a large enough amount of to back their opinions up)2. Oil, we're too dependant on it, and how many of you really have a beef with Iraq as an entire nation? How many Iraquis have you met? Personally, I got no beef with anyone I haven't met, whom I will never meet, who hasn't done a damn thing to me, but I could be wrong here, you decide. I mean, Bush initially said we weren't going to be "a nation-building country" in enough of his campaign speeches, but what happened in Afghanistan? HMMMMMMMMMMM....Why not just send in some Rangers or Seals or a similar small, elite, tactical unit and assassinate Hussein, a bunch of his successors and then organize a mass invasion by the UN for peacekeeping and putting the government we want in place? It's short of a full scale war, and it accomplishes the same thing.(yes, I realize I'm getting a little off of topic #2, but I'm getting pissed off a major reason why I tend to shy away from politics or religion as conversation topics) Yes, I am willing to drive an electric car or something similar and sacrafice my automotive performance to decrease our dependence on foreign oil, that's why I'm motorcycle shopping right now, and I do own a mountain bike that I use to go to most of my friends houses and a few places to fish but it isn't practical for some things so I do own a car, cram it.3. W Bush is a Bush, look at some not so distant history(his father's term in office) if you need clarification4. W Bush is the dumbest Bush(possibly tied with Jeb, just because you don't have the name Jeb, c'mon what kind of name is that??) Look to the speeches delivered by our fearless leader if you need further clarification. ("Fool me once...")<<<How the hell do you get that wrong?In short, religious zealots+oil shortages+stupid president with a need to correct his father's mistakes=War with IraqNote: I will not be posting further as this thread is already getting into a Democrats v. Republicans debate, and since there is not one compelling reason to vote for a Republican I will keep my blood pressure down and not even read this.

[miteymax86]

If you feel so damn strongly about it, why don't you go suicide bomb some Iraquis!

[skydragoness]

Sure, let's go to war with Iraq. I think our economy in its present state can handle it (seething sarcasm).

It's going to be a cycle, IF we bring down Hussein, it will be a temporary fix, then someone else will rise up, the terrorlst acts will continue, because it is not only the middle east that houses terrorists....they are everywhere. Especially in Indonesia, Austrailia--whom have been subject to many bombings as of late. What have those countries done as a nation to incite such violence? There is no reason to how these 'minds' work. This violence will continue. It's all about ignorance, religious fervor and lack of education, the US can't shake off a mindset like that. No matter what leader they take out.

i think it was an ancient egyptian quote that said: "there is no darkness like ignorance"

all IMO of course...

[MaineExport]

If you feel so damn strongly about it, why don't you go suicide bomb some Iraquis!

Settle down Beavis.

BTW..... it's no mystery who bombs Isreal. For nearly a decade Clinton told them not to retaliate while the world watched them get bombed. I wonder how you would feel if you lived there and every other day another suicide b0mber killed 10 or 20 of your neighbors, family members, and friends.

I don't think anybody has a 'beef' with the people of Iraq... just the leadership that uses weapons of mass destruction against their OWN PEOPLE and their neighbors. Korea may be a threat, but the aren't a loose cannon like Iraq is.

Also, Iraq doesn't affect our oil prices in any noticable way. Venezuela on the other hand, really does affect our oil supply.... and if it's all about the oil, then why haven't we invaded them so we can have their oil back? They are the 4th largest oil producer in the world... way above Iraq.

You're obviously very convinced that your opinion is correct, and I would be the last to tell you otherwise. I'm not attacking your position, I genuinely wanted to hear your defense of the Korea statment. This is simply a matter ofconflicting opinions, and hey.... at least we have the right to talk about these things in an open, public forum, without fear of retribution, without bombs falling on our houses, without our own government being in posession of ALL of our property, without being forced to worship a certain way (or at all), with plenty of food in the cupboard, with the best highway systm in the world, with one of the highest stndards of living in the world, with choices to do whatever the hell we want to tomorrow.... etc....etc...

Any hey... if you "feel so damn strongly" about it.... run for office. That's how we do thing in this country. Or you could just move to Iraq if you don't like how our democracy works.... I won't lose any sleep over it. :rolleyes

Peace!

[AZhitman]

Wow - I was avoiding this thread for a LONG time, just to see where it would go.

As I'm reading, I am incredibly impressed at the level of maturity and interest each of you has in these areas. Some of these posts were not dashed off hastily, they took some time and effort, and for that I applaud you, one and all. Even TrueSlide (whose first post here lit me up) has reconciled his position such that I no longer feel like strangling him (:D).

I will withhold most of my opinions on this matter as Repo and Maine (and Apex) have said all I would say already. Bravo.

I might be persuaded to add the following:

The N. Koreans concern me more than those pathetic miserable basturds in the desert. Watch and see.

The elite tactical units Mitey referenced is a brilliant idea, but does not send the international message we have become accustomed to sending - AND warfare styles change ever so slowly, unfortunately.

Leadership is a funny thing, and the US, as a leader, must be at the forefront of dictating what is right and wrong on a global level. With great power comes great responsibility, and while many would just as soon see the US retreat from this role, it is our responsibility to defend the defenseless, promote democracy, and right wrongs.

With that said, what is so terribly wrong about warfare for the sake of oil? People have been overpowering others for natural resources since mankind appeared. Perhaps it'd be a good idea to make Iraq/Iran the 51st state in the union. Assimilate the natives, educate, employ and feed them (and teach them to respect women).

While we're on the subject, let's just snatch up Canada while we're at it - I hear there's good fishing, hunting, and the land is cheap... Whatever we don't buy we can pave and stripe. After all Canada IS the answer to all our parking problems...

I named my dog Reagan. 'Nuff said.

For True and Mitey, I would encourage you to continue to defend your positions - However, using terms that are not measurable and verifiable (i.e. "dumbest", "war-monger", "stupid", and my favorite - "crack-snorting") will only dilute and weaken your position.

Anyway - good on all y'all - Keep it rolling, and keep it civil.

[AZhitman]

There is no reason to how these 'minds' work. This violence will continue. It's all about ignorance, religious fervor and lack of education, the US can't shake off a mindset like that. No matter what leader they take out.

All the more reason to act decisively and without delay. To say "things will never change" is the same mentality that propogates and reinforces domestic abusers, schoolyard bullies, sexual predators and common criminals.

To fail to act means that all the victims of the ignorant will have died or suffered in vain - and I certainly couldn't sleep at night with THAT on my conscience.

BTW, welcome to the debate - good to hear from you Sky!!!

[Mayhem_J30]

The N. Koreans concern me more than those pathetic miserable basturds in the desert. Watch and see.

agreed.

i'll just keep it short like that

[Repo Man]

I know there are a few of you guys who are in the military, and it's your job to believe whatever your CO tells you and so on,

Ok, here's a huge misconception. Believe what my CO tells me? Hell no, it's only my job to DO what my CO tells me. I can believe whatever I want as long as I'm doing my job and maintaining the esprit de corps.

The fact is that we do not have all of the facts and I'm sure we never will. There is so much more going on that we don't hear about, so we can debate the economy, ethics, geopolitics and so on until we run out of bandwidth, but without all of the facts I see it as an exercise in futility.

What I do know for sure is that I have many friends on their way to Kuwait as we speak. I missed going on that trip by a few months and I feel like a real tool for not being on that plane with them. I would really prefer we not go to war. I don't want to lose the guys I trained with to war, but the fact is that soldiers DO die. Not by choice of course. I hope as much as anyone for the simple aforementioned fact that our Commander In Chief has done everything he possibly can to avoid war.

If we do go to war however, I will support them to the end. Vini, Vidi, Vici. :patriot

[skydragoness]

Quote »All the more reason to act decisively and without delay. To say "things will never change" is the same mentality that propogates and reinforces domestic abusers, schoolyard bullies, sexual predators and common criminals. [/quote]

I wouldn't say it is the same mentality, because dealing with/correcting bullies, sexual predators and common criminals is far easier and more fruitful than dealing with a dictator, his country, and various terrorists in between.

And by no means do i mean we shouldn't defend ourselves either.

I do agree with whomever said before, that this is a problem that should have been dealt with before when the economy was stronger. Despite it all, it looks like we will go to war eventually. I voted for "no, we shouldn't go to war" because i believe the economy in its present state can't handle the billions of dollars that goes into dropping bombs and such. If we win, we'll be weak afterwards, a strong economy makes for a stong country.

I hope we'll be able to bounce back.

[Repo Man]

I hope we'll be able to bounce back.

When have we ever not?

[skydragoness]

we shall see

[APEXi240]

While we're on the subject, let's just snatch up Canada while we're at it - I hear there's good fishing, hunting, and the land is cheap... Whatever we don't buy we can pave and stripe. After all Canada IS the answer to all our parking problems...

Colin Quinn said it best in a recent comedic act...Canada is like a quiet upstairs neighbor in your two family. They been great so far, but they are starting to act up. They need to be evicted.

I'm paraphrasing, but you get the idea.:evilhaha