Your Thoughts: Iraq and war.

[Sopdadope]

Bravo Fred -

Always nice to get a different viewpoint on matters such as these. You guys don't know what a wealth of information this guy (Fred) is... Hope you all get an opportunity to talk with him on the phone (or meet in person). Made all the more impressive when you consider he isn't born and bred in the US.

BTW, I have some more history for you guys, while we're on the topic of international relations, history, oppression, terrorism, and the like. Regarding the Armenian people, who were persecuted, sought out and systematically slaughtered by the Ottoman Empire (Turks) around the turn of the century. The atrocities committed against this group (a Christian nation, I might add) far exceeded (in numbers killed) those experienced by the Jews during Hitler's reign of power (true - look it up). Many fled to neighboring countries and even overseas to avoid the horrible conditions imposed upon them. At present, their country no longer exists, and their language and customs are pretty much lost forever. These little-known facts are made all the more obscure because they're not a "sympathetic" group (Armenians were stereotyped as gypsies and thieves) unlike like the Jewish people.

How do I know? My grandfather had no family remaining. Fled his homeland and arrived at Ellis Island, New York. There he lost his given name and was "assigned" an American name. He met a woman there and my father was born soon thereafter as a first-generation American.

That was a very tough read for me AZHitman. But I totally empathize with you.

In fact, my ex-gf's best friend is Armenian. For one of her oral essays, she picked the "Armenian Holocaust" and everyone was totally shocked that millions of innocent Armenians were slaughtered yet a roomful of high school students hadn't a clue this horrific event ever happened.

I understand because my family endured the hardships of the Khmer Rogue regime in which nearly three million Cambodians were methodically tortured and killed. During a college study I surveyed how many people were aware of this dark segment of human history and was appalled that only 1 person out of 35 college students even had a hint of what went down.

On top of the millions slaughtered by the KR, apprx. 13,000 Cambodians were killed and countless maimed during the US Air Force bombing campaigns which were intended to "root out" Vietname comm. guerilla forces. Not surprisingly, the bombings hardly registered as a minor blip in the news.

Even today, thousands of landmines (many of which were placed by the U.S.) continue to maim and kill Cambodians today. The country currently has among the highest casualty rates caused by landmines.

Fred, I'm sure you also know exactly what occurred in East Timor. as well.

Also, I'd like to say I admired the gorgeous aesthetics of the Black Hawk Down movie but literally felt my skin crawling when I watched that movie in theatres. International reports stated that literally hundreds of Somalians (a large majority of women and children) were killed. It hits even harder since I'm close friends with a Somalian whose relatives were slaughtered by American arsenal. I felt my heart sink when the theatre crowd screamed "kill those ****ers!" during the rooftop bombing scene. It's just horrible how the media twists around the truth and depicted the ENTIRE Somalian population as a bunch of bloodthirsty fiends bent on killing US soldiers when it was a bunch of warring militants. The movie should've been unbiased and tried to convey a point that "war is hell and everyone pays."

All over CNN there were repeated showings of American soldiers being dragged on the ground but that's about all you saw.

I'd like to end this posting by stating that in no way shape or form I'm trying to demonizing the US military. In fact, I have friends who are in the Marines and Army and I have the utmost respect for those who are risking everything for us. The only party I'm blasting here is the media for brainwashing the American public. People don't see everything going on, just what the media decides we should see or know.

[AZhitman]

Soph - Funny that you replied - I thought about you when I was posting this... Thanks.

Only reason this information sticks in my craw is because the professor at the U of A (where I presented this as a research project for a freshman linguistics course) was Jewish and totally mocked me AND my paper... My grade reflected it. This was my first lesson on how easy it is for people to cling to past wrongs done to others as if they were their own.

Incidentally, I went and saw BHD at a theater in Yuma AZ on a business trip. Me and only four other people were in the theater that evening. Turns out they were Marines stationed close by, and it was obvious that every one of us was crying when we left at the end of the movie.

I'd add that I don't identify with my heritage and am of the strong belief that we are Americans above all else. I abhor the "tags" people attach to themselves, and I refuse to acknowledge any word that precedes "hyphen American".

[Sopdadope]

I'd add that I don't identify with my heritage and am of the strong belief that we are Americans above all else. I abhor the "tags" people attach to themselves, and I refuse to acknowledge any word that precedes "hyphen American".

I understand you 100% but for a time, I didn't consider myself American at all.

For one, I was born in a refugee camp in Thailand where my parents had been living for half a decade since being persecuted by the Rogue. When I was two, we left for Manila and stayed there for another year before being sponsored by a nice Christian family in Burlington, VT and stayed there for about a year.

My family was (still is) immeasurably grateful for their great efforts to bring us Stateside but when we arrived, things took a turn for the worse. Within the next day, they had demanded that both my parents work at the local machinist shop (my mother was pregnant with my sis) and basically forced us to assimilate and convert. Not willing, our temporary Visas were retracted and off we were back to Manila. It wasn't until the '87 that I became a permanent resident of the States.

Living in a rural, northern CA town, I never really felt like I fit in and so I always felt like I was never quite American enough. But this all changed when I watched hours upon hours of home video footage my sister took when she visited my parent's homeland back in '94. Everything was so strange and traditions were such a polar opposite of our lifestyles here in the States that I never ever felt so American in my life.

Still though, once in a while I'm reminded when someone comes up to me and asks "what are you?" But it's okay...

[FrEaK]

Now now children don't argue.... we all know Blinkor is the patient.... he'll get jealous if he isn't

[TrueSlide]

hmm, so you like playing doctor with blink0r?

[FrEaK]

Sorry Truslide... thats not my thing...

[Stoneage_Turbo]

no but according to that video your mom always plays you only play the patient when its time for the proctology exam

YOU DIRTY LITTLE CANUCK BASTURD!!!!!

glad freak came in , kinda livend this thing up a little

and dont be jelous of bush because he gets more bush than you , if you would quit playing with "the truckers delight" and put your mind to it you could catch up , candian girls are easy

[FrEaK]

Sometimes things get too serious.... that when they bring me in... as for truckers delight.... i think he picked up something from blinkor so i dare not go near him...

[yashin]

i didn't want to get in on this but i just have some things to say

1) saddam hussein, was a monster created by US foreign Policyalong with many other evil people such as bin laden and the former dictator augusto pinochet

2)almost all the weapons iraq has were given to them by the USin the report that was just released, the US government blacked out all the names of the US companies that gave saddam weapons

3) saddam poses no real threat to the US. Saddam Hussein has never directly attacked America, he nows if he did then he'd be dead for sure

4) the only way that he will use WMD is if he is direclty attackedso he isn't a threat unless the US attacks him

i'm going to stop now because i don't want to get off on a whole rant about bad things the US has down (that could last days)

[slw240sx]

MOVIE ABOUT THE SITUATION!

[AZhitman]

Soph, that was a great post - Thanks for sharing.

In my opinion, reading that makes me all the prouder, knowing this is a country where people can come to make (earn) a better life for themselves and future generations, and don't have to fear a recurrence of the atrocities they left behind.

[VimyJ]

Quote »

Do you know why there is a book and a movie called "Black Hawk Down"? Because it wasn't politically correct for Billy Clinton to give those soldiers the tools they needed to go into the Bakara Market and complete their mission. But I'm sure you don't understand the concept of armor supporting infantry and vice-versa. I won't even start on air support. Had Bush been in office, there would be no "Black Hawk Down".

[/quote]They say that hindsight is 20/20. I find it interesting how history evolves. If memory serves, the right wing in the country were dead set against any military involvement in foreign affairs. If the troops lacked the sufficient munitions and hardware to get the job done, then some blame has to be laid at the feet of xenophobic conservative isolationists who wanted US involvement in that humanitarian catastrophe to be kept to the absolute minimum. Remember the cry from the right about not sending our precious troops on a fool's errand? These same folks are now clamouring for war with Iraq. Do you remember the whining from the right wing over the successful Kosovo war? Selective memory is a polarizing phenomenom that only serves to prove one's ignorance. Very little in life is black or white. Only differing shades of grey.

[MasterMan]

Quote »I'd like to end this posting by stating that in no way shape or form I'm trying to demonizing the US military. In fact, I have friends who are in the Marines and Army and I have the utmost respect for those who are risking everything for us. The only party I'm blasting here is the media for brainwashing the American public. People don't see everything going on, just what the media decides we should see or know.[/quote]its so true, thats one of the reasons i would like to have satellite TV because then you can get news from around the world, its so sad how our meda leaves out so much just to make the US look good. i think if they are gonna give us a story it should be the WHOLE story, but eh nothing will ever change. for now i just stick to local news.. and look around the internet for international(SP?) news.

[MaineExport]

I'm almost sorry to rehash this thread, but I believe this gentleman's speech touches so eloquently on many of the issues we have discussed here.

Marine Gen. Hawley's Speech >"Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such >surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too. >Here they are:" > >1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative." > >Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is relative. Say it >with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" >doesn't mean, "We're perfect." Okay? The only perfect being is the >bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. > >The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and >blunders, always been and always will be, the greatest beacon of >freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need >proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half >a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States >would look like one giant line to see "The Producers." > >2) "Violence only leads to more violence." > >This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy >League University to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your >heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more >violence. > >Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, >fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads >to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all >dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not >"nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E- Well, you get the >idea. > >3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community has failed us." > >For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the >ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not >protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter appointee >Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided >that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy >satellites. "After all," they reasoned, "you can see a license plate >from 200 miles away." > >This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. >Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not >possible with satellites. You have to use other humans. > >When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's >the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans >into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks >like Gary Busey in a Spring Break '93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a >coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hi ya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to >meet that bin Laden fella." Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is >giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years. > >4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at >us." > >Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate >cry for he! lp. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton >John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless >people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in >power. > >Mohamed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the >killing grounds (I'm sorry, one of the "alleged hijackers," according to >CNN. They stopped using the word "terrorlst," you know), is the son of a >Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. > >In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war >were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could >think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. > >At least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the >Anti-Global-Warm-ing (or is it World Trade? >Oh-who-knows-what-the-hell-they-want) demonstrators. They all charged >their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card(!) before >driving to the airport in their SUV's. > >5) "Any profiling is racial profiling." > >Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the >New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the >gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of >reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and >using too much Drakkar. I'm crushed. I think we're all crushed. Please >come back. With a cherry on top? > >Why don't they just change their names, anyway? It's happened in the >past. Think about it. How many Adolfs do you run into these days? > >Shortly after that, I remember watching TV with my jaw on the floor as a >government official actually said, "That little old grandmother from >Sioux City could be carrying something." Okay, how about this: No, she >couldn't. It would never be the grandmother from Sioux City. Is it even >possible? What are the odds? Winning a hundred Powerball Lotteries in a >row? A thousand? A million? > >And now a Secret Service guy has been tossed off a plane and we're all >supposed to cry about it because he's an Arab? Didn't it have the >tiniest bit to do with the fact that he filled out his forms incorrectly >three times? And then left an Arab history book on his seat as he >strolled off the plane? And came back? Armed? Let's please all stop >singing "We Are the World" for a minute and think practically! > >I don't want to be sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four >seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy >next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them." > >SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year: > >Never to forget our murdered brothers and sisters. > >Never to let the "relativists" get away with their immoral thinking. > >After all, no matter what your daughter's political science professor >says,we didn't start this. > >Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More Hiroshimas"? I >wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Pearl Harbors." > >Semper Fi! >

[AZhitman]

WOW - Maine, that rocked. Send me that at my office (I'm gonna be away for a week and will forget to copy it). Didja catch that Repo?

I'm doing my Master's thesis on the effectiveness of profiling... You wanna see a bunch of p****ed-off academic-types? Man, I have gotten crap at every turn... Basturds.

[MaineExport]

Hah... thanks AZ.... I couldn't resist that little gem. As politically motivated as I am, I pale in comparison to my brother and father. They, on occasion, send me their chewed up remnants as fodder for discussion.

I'm not sure what you meant by sending that to your office, but I emailed you a copy.

BTW... I'm sure that the academia must have been caught off gaurd when you disclosed your topic!!

[slw240sx]

i found that Quote/speech to be pretty ingnorant and close minded myself, like it was written by a person with that 8th grade comprehension level, not that im one to talk about intelligence, but to have some one be praised for that rant you call a speech ,is appalling to me, im far from a real american patriot, but i do believe in somthings about this country, and i believe we are in some ways on a high, societital (sp?/word?),moral,and,economic level, we are also in some ways leaders of the world, and for that rehtoric to be praised is a slap in the face to all of those advantages we might hold over other nations.

Quote » 2) "Violence only leads to more violence." > >This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy >League University to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your >heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more >violence. > >Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, >fully-thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads >to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all >dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not >"nurtured back into the bosom of love." Dead. D-E- Well, you get the >idea. [/quote]

this i idea right here is one of the most ignorant statments ive ever had the misfourtune to read! violence will always lead to more violence! look at 9/11 fully thought out violence, not perfectly excuted ,but it was close enough an its done what ???started a war, in which people have and will continue to be killed!!!and if we did happen to kill every one that would ever pose a threat after out act of viloence it would be GENOcide, you know the killing off of an entire race/ culture, which is as i recall from early parental/religious lessons, is IMORAL which leads me into another quote i find very irritatiing!

Quote »Never to let the "relativists" get away with their immoral thinking.[/quote] Q. hmm what were your thoughts through out this entire rant????

A. IMORAL

Quote »In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war >were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could >think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. > >At least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the >Anti-Global-Warm-ing (or is it World Trade? >Oh-who-knows-what-the-hell-they-want) demonstrators. They all charged >their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card(!) before >driving to the airport in their SUV's[/quote]yes maybe they arent in the movement for the right reasons but at least they are listening to differant view points and NOT killing people !!! Quote »5) "Any profiling is racial profiling." > >Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the >New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the >gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of >reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and >using too much Drakkar. I'm crushed. I think we're all crushed. Please >come back. With a cherry on top? > >Why don't they just change their names, anyway? It's happened in the >past. Think about it. How many Adolfs do you run into these days? [/quote] im not sure why hes arguing this point?it seems to agree with his point of view. maybe im just tired and not reading it correctly !

Quote »I don't want to be sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four >seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy >next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them." [/quote]if your still sitting on the floor of a plane turning to another passenger cracking a sarcastic joke then you sure are one hell of a P*SSY!!!!!, hell your going to die anyway do somthing to try an stop it !! id be ashamed to have him as a fellow soldier if i were a marine !!!

one last quote that i kinda got lost with, i must assume its talking about some one carring some sort of weapon be it biological, explosive what ever !Quote »Shortly after that, I remember watching TV with my jaw on the floor as a >government official actually said, "That little old grandmother from >Sioux City could be carrying something." Okay, how about this: No, she >couldn't. It would never be the grandmother from Sioux City. Is it even >possible? What are the odds? Winning a hundred Powerball Lotteries in a >row? A thousand? A million?[/quote] why couldnt an old grandmother be a suicide b0mber???whos to tell, maybe shes about to die or shes felt a spark fueld by recent violence to avenge some sort of vendeta on the white man, for the killing and raping of her people and land back in the 1700s.

im done. complete thoughts or not. too tired to give a damn!

yes the american people are brainwashed , but so are the nations troops, we all are one way or another!!!

i do not support war as answer to a problemn that is not threating, or as a proactive solution to a possible problemn. thats murder an imoral in my book, also launching an attack to impose demoracy and freedom on other lands ,in my opinion is not freedom at all rather a type of slavery, those people did not have a choice to choose our system and beliefs there fore they are nolonger free which is a great injustice

i know this may offend you millitary types and patriots of this country, but that is part of its intent, if we do not challenge each others views we will lose our freedoms, our indiviualitys, that are so valued by all of us, even those of us that take them for granted ,and, or, complain about our country and government...

thanks for your timeill re read this tomorrow an proof its mistakes and what not Jon

[PalmerWMD]

I am a career "military type" but I am not offended by your post, even tho I dont agree with all of it.

I have seen the "general's quote" before and even tho it makes some fun points the more one reads it, the more one gets a bad taste in the mouth.I liked it a lot the first time I read it now it just strikes me yawnworthy for the most.

I actualy agree with some of your points and the "generals' quote is not insightful (except I like the profiling part), but it just sim[plifies things a much as those he accuses simplify things.

The truth is NEVER simple in todays world the Osama Bin lAdens of teh world are wrong because they simplified things and there fore came up with a simple course of action.But we as country simplify things as well, cuz our politicos need to have something that can be "explained" in a 6 second soundbite.

I do believe however, you will find at least as many PPL in the military, that really think these issues thru, than among the civilian population (if not more so).

And while we all will go when ordered, many in the military reflect quite a bit about what goes on.Not the 18 year old private maybe, or the 58 yo old full colonel, but I have found that junior officers as well as some of the younger senior enlisted reflect quite a bit about our foreign policies.

Fred..:patriot

[MaineExport]

I posted the qoute for people to ponder, laugh at, cry at, or do whatever they would with it. I don't recall where I said, 'hey guys check this out... I think this sums my opinion of the situation up perfectly!'

I agree with a lot of what the General has to say, and I find his wit and sarcasm funny. But anyway, it was provided to add a little light-hearted humor to our dscussion. If anyone takes it so seriously I pitty you.... get out more, slw240sx.

[VimyJ]

>"Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such >surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too. >Here they are:" .....>

Some common sense but mostly :bsflag

[VimyJ]

I haven't voted in the poll becuase the questions don't seem to apply to me. You use two different verbs in the opinions. "Shouldn't" and "need" are very different ideas. Therefore I can't answer. War might not be needed or maybe it would.

"Shouldn't go to War?" Way to general. If something is found then may be we should. If nothing is found, then maybe we shouldn't.

"Don't care?" Yes, I do.

I am totally in favour of war if the UN or at least NATO is fully in favour of it. This action would have to have some form of legitimacy. But look at what's happening already! The Afghan war let Pakistan and India f**k around with nuke BS and now N. Korea is acting crazy hoping to take advantage of the confusion and uncertainty. War would have serious consequences including possible real war with Islam and/or war in Korea with a desparate despotic regime that has nothing to lose.

Then what? Well, maybe China grabs Tiawan when the US has its hands full with two other serious conflicts. Russia becomes involved via Chechnya (sp?), Quebec separates from Canada , the cats start chasing the dogs, and generally all hell breaks out. And, of course, Kenny gets killed again.:chef

[Stoneage_Turbo]

"And while we all will go when ordered, many in the military reflect quite a bit about what goes on.Not the 18 year old private maybe, or the 58 yo old full colonel, but I have found that junior officers as well as some of the younger senior enlisted reflect quite a bit about our foreign policies."

yup , and it keeps me up at night fred

[FrEaK]

I think we should sttle this war through a giant hockey game... bastard Iran and Bastard Osama vs US and Canada in a hockey game...

[yashin]

FrEaK

Did you type Iran in your post by accident?What the hell does Iran have to do with anything?

And if it is on purpose why the hell are you calling Iran a bastard?

[FrEaK]

That my friend was a typo..

[AZhitman]

if your still sitting on the floor of a plane turning to another passenger cracking a sarcastic joke then you sure are one hell of a P*SSY!!!!!, hell your going to die anyway do somthing to try an stop it!! id be ashamed to have him as a fellow soldier if i were a marine!!!

But whatever you do, make sure you don't accidentally KILL your adversary - THAT would be immoral. :rolleyes

I'd have responded to the rest of this post but it looked like 6th grade drivel. There's a lesson to be learned here: Argue your point if you must, but for God's sake do it well. Otherwise you're just misguided noise.

Say no to typos - Don't post tired!

[FrEaK]

Amen

[VimyJ]

But whatever you do, make sure you don't accidentally KILL your adversary - THAT would be immoral. :rolleyes

And make doubly sure that you don't accidentally kill your own guys while they're practicing. PPCLI.

Cats chasing dogs? Just wait.

Our leader? The guy that didn't finish his stint with the Air Guard?The guy who said that he'd like to get Saddam because, "He tried to kill my dad"?

$670 billion in tax cuts and possibly two major conflicts to deal with?

There is a Chinese curse/admonition/insult that goes, "May you always live in interesting times." Times'll be more interesting than we'd all like, I'm afraid.

Think of all those "moms and dads" who'll lose sons settling W's score.

The near future: "Thank you for your support and reelcting me President of Amurica. All you moms and dads who sacraficed your sons and daughters for our noble cause were a great source of support in our war against terror. But we have some terrible decisions to make. There's no money left but we must go on. To balance the budget I will introduce legislation to remove the shackles put on industry by repressive enviromental and trade laws. Medicare and Medicaid will be reduced by 50%. We will privatize the National Park system. We will return to the true vision of our founding fathers over eleven score years ago. God bless Amurica."

And, of course, Kenny gets killed again.

There is a western adage/admonition/curse that goes, "A people get the government they deserve."

Sorry for being so dark.

[VimyJ]

PPCLI, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. 4 dead, 8 seriously wounded in a classic "cluster ****" through no fault of their own.

"We hope that he'll be able to feed himself one day." - Mother (not "mom") of a wounded 24 year infantryman

[AZhitman]

How the hell did Canadian Infantrymen get killed/wounded?

Trip wires for the horsies? Somebody substituted live ammo?

BTW, I'd be surprised if we lose anyone (if we even wind up intervening in the Gulf).