Your Thoughts: Iraq and war.
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GatorS14
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"wars in the middle east have been going on forever, and will go on till the earth quits spinnin'"
If we go to war and do not take over the oil fields....we fail.
even if we go to iraq and tear them a new ***hole,if we dont take over their oil fields for our own use....WE FAIL!
America is money country, we have nothing if we dont have our economy.Therefore if we go to iraq and spend 30 or 50 billion dollars on the war we need to be compinsated(worth our wild).and all of iraq's oil sounds fair to me.
think about it 30-50 billion dollars and what to show for it?....news coverage?....dead soldiers?....a possibility of a deceased saddam? Sounds like the u.s.a. will be ripped off unless we come back with 800,000,000,000,000,000 drums of oil.
if we dont make some kind of money off this war we lose the war.because if we spend 40 billion on iraq and then 3 or 4 months later another country poses a threat thats another 40 billion(to go to war with) untill we are poorer than dirt and cant even defend our home front.
my 2cent
If we go to war and do not take over the oil fields....we fail.
even if we go to iraq and tear them a new ***hole,if we dont take over their oil fields for our own use....WE FAIL!
America is money country, we have nothing if we dont have our economy.Therefore if we go to iraq and spend 30 or 50 billion dollars on the war we need to be compinsated(worth our wild).and all of iraq's oil sounds fair to me.
think about it 30-50 billion dollars and what to show for it?....news coverage?....dead soldiers?....a possibility of a deceased saddam? Sounds like the u.s.a. will be ripped off unless we come back with 800,000,000,000,000,000 drums of oil.
if we dont make some kind of money off this war we lose the war.because if we spend 40 billion on iraq and then 3 or 4 months later another country poses a threat thats another 40 billion(to go to war with) untill we are poorer than dirt and cant even defend our home front.
my 2cent
Please excuse the typos below ,the ergonomics of my worksatuion are horrible:
I dont mind going to war, actually I would like to see action.
BUT:
I see national dicussion foucsses too much on how to fight and if and how we can do it.
I belive the "why" is the most important.The current demonization ( VERY transparent how "findings" are carefully leaked to media etc) is not helpful, one needs to look at the roots of the current issue.After all when its comes to weapons of mass destruction, Iran, No Korea and Israel are known operators of WMD arsenals vastly exceeding that of Irak.
Irak is just so convinient, cuz the Propaganda for demonization has already been paid for.We had a war w/ them once, so they are bad right?Easy sell, to US public.
Then lets look at why we went to war originally:
1) They invaded Kuwait+anexxing it.We said that;s BAD. Why?Shouldn't we applaud when an Arab country tears down the divisive legacy of british colonialism which drew those border for it's own interests, which had nothng to do with the interests of teh local population and often opposed local interests?
2)If in the process the British, decided to declare some local Pirates the new "royal family", such cliques deserve no defense.
As a matter of fact some reports indicate that many of teh non citizen, Arab population welcomed teh Iraqis.
3) Half the popualtion of Kuwait lived as servants to the other half of original citizens, with rape of foreign maids demeaning conditons, no votes for the "foreign" workforce (some of which been there for genrations unlike many of our newly minted "citizens") in general were commonplace.Actaully anyone who understands the local conditons uinderstands that they are just barely one step above the Aprtheid of South Afica of the 70's and 80's.
And as if they werent rich enough, they were using cross drilling techniqiues to steal Iraqi oil, at the time which was the most contentios issue between the countries for which Irq had previsouly threatened invasion.
And this is the "democracy" we were defending?
3) All along Iraq wanted to become a US client state, even asking veiled permission to invade from the US ambassador, who stated to Iraqi officals:"The United States takes no sides in Inter Arab conflicts"
Iraq had also made a point in the preceding years to distance it self from the then still strong Soviet Union and buy more of theri goods from western sources.
4) During Desert Storm and desert Shield all sorts of atrocity stories were floating around teh US media whipping up a war frenzy.Almost all of those were freely invented.Who remembers the gripping story of a little girl presumbaly rescued from occupied Kuwait?She testified in front of congress sobbing about how she saw evil Iraqi soldiers lift babis from incubators so they could steal the incubators, killing the bais in process.
After the war it turned out she was the Kuwait ambassadors daughter who never was in Kuwait at the time and hadnt been there in years!!
I hate being lied to!
The same with the majority of all the other atrocity stories, but they galvanized the US public into going to war.
Anybody remebr the chemical massacre at the kurdish village oif Halabja?
It frequently gets quoted even now by elected officails in their efforts to demonize S H. (supposedly "the man who gasses his own people")
What many may not know, is that just before desert Shield the US war Acamdemy made a study, published at teh time in (among otehrs) the US Army Chemical Corps Magazine.this study found with a hi dregree of confidence, that it was NOT teh Iraqis who made that attack.
Why? and How?
Iran was also fighting the Kurds at the time (the kurds get it from everybody: a third of turkey our "glorious Ally in the fight for democracy" is actually kurdish and its population opressed via beatings. murders rapes etc)
Iran also used chemical weapons, so why did they find it was Iran?
Among the agents used other than teh common Mustard ,which was in both Iraq's and Irans arsenal, was also Cyanide.
An agent that had NEVER been used by the Iraqis and however had been a mainstay of the Iranian chem arsenal for years.
As a result teh Army investigators concluded it was Iran not Iraq that attacked that kurdish village.I wished I would ahve saved that editon then I think our magazine was called "the dragon Soldier" or something like that.
In the meantime the halabja massacre has been used time and again to demonize a regime, that to this day allows christian kurds to serve in responsible postions in its military.
Do most Kurds want autonomy or even seccesion? yes! Do many of them fight the Iraqui regime? Yes! BUT: and they have always had much more autonomy and rights in Iraq, such as teaching theiri language in schools, than they do in the "pillar of the free world" Turkey.
Turkey to whom we have been selling billions of $$ worth of arms including a prodction facilty for F16's.
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After the war PPL get talking about the need to "finsih the job", what job?Just becasue they were so caught up in teh dmonization Of iraq and their attitudes were formed by atrocity stories long admitted to be inventions?
Also waht about terrorism?
Iraq is ruled by teh Baath party of with sadaam Hussein is merely the strong man.This party for decades has spent it' s oil revenues on building bridges hiways, hospitals, and buildign up domestic manufacturing capabilty.
Their government is acting mcuh more responsible with its peoples intersts in mind, than those of the gulf states, our 'aliies' who spedns billions of $$ on building palaces , pleasure gardens in the desert, fleest of Mercedes Benzes.
What about terrorism?Iraq has often fought islamic extremists (funny story they have an anti -terror training camp south of bagdad which was advertised in the US media lately as a trainingcamp for terrorists "according to US giv sources", snicker:rolleyes:..)
A formerly implacent enemy of islamic fundamentalists (irak) is now being pushed ( by US) more an more into a rapproachement w/ them.(Sooner or later, Irak might have to give up their vigirous anti AlQaida stance, which they held for a many years, but ONLY becasue our foreign policy INSISTS of manufacturing an enemy out of Irak......)
When they are speculating of Fox about "saddam terror connection" their are either being ignorant or intentionally misleading.(Or predicting a possible future that our policies have created)
Anyway folks I will probably delete this post in a few days, as my current employer does not encourage dissent and as soon as war starts, intelligent analysis may be considered to be uncomfortably close to"gving aid and comfort".
Fred...
PS: One more thing about WMD; as I have spent my entire adult life working with, teaching about, training with and about WMD, I would like to point this out:
Is it possbile to have WMD after an insepction regime? yes.Is is posbile to have a significant capability of WMD after an inspection regime? No!!!
yes, thehre can always be alittle bit of this and that hidden away, but it doesn't matter; to use/deploy WMD you need an intact WMD infastructure.That infrastructure is big and cannot(!) be easuily hidden.
Our inteligence agencies have produced msyterious pictures of buldings alleging their are WMD facilities of some kind, time and again, when they wer checked they were clearly not.
You canNOT just unbolt a couple of machines and throw them on a truck, in a half hour, even a day ot two, is NOT enough notice for WMD production to be hidden.
It just cant be done. Inspectors would always find traces of Agents using techiniques such as GC/MS,FT-IR, PCR (interested parties can look those up on web), (am not making this up have used all these myself.)
If NSA and CIA had found ANY of the much quoted "evidence" our spindoctors would have had it over our media in no time.
Yet NEVER were they able to produce even circumstanbtial evidence of a CURRENT WMD capabuility in Iraq of any significance.
I dont mind going to war, actually I would like to see action.
BUT:
I see national dicussion foucsses too much on how to fight and if and how we can do it.
I belive the "why" is the most important.The current demonization ( VERY transparent how "findings" are carefully leaked to media etc) is not helpful, one needs to look at the roots of the current issue.After all when its comes to weapons of mass destruction, Iran, No Korea and Israel are known operators of WMD arsenals vastly exceeding that of Irak.
Irak is just so convinient, cuz the Propaganda for demonization has already been paid for.We had a war w/ them once, so they are bad right?Easy sell, to US public.
Then lets look at why we went to war originally:
1) They invaded Kuwait+anexxing it.We said that;s BAD. Why?Shouldn't we applaud when an Arab country tears down the divisive legacy of british colonialism which drew those border for it's own interests, which had nothng to do with the interests of teh local population and often opposed local interests?
2)If in the process the British, decided to declare some local Pirates the new "royal family", such cliques deserve no defense.
As a matter of fact some reports indicate that many of teh non citizen, Arab population welcomed teh Iraqis.
3) Half the popualtion of Kuwait lived as servants to the other half of original citizens, with rape of foreign maids demeaning conditons, no votes for the "foreign" workforce (some of which been there for genrations unlike many of our newly minted "citizens") in general were commonplace.Actaully anyone who understands the local conditons uinderstands that they are just barely one step above the Aprtheid of South Afica of the 70's and 80's.
And as if they werent rich enough, they were using cross drilling techniqiues to steal Iraqi oil, at the time which was the most contentios issue between the countries for which Irq had previsouly threatened invasion.
And this is the "democracy" we were defending?
3) All along Iraq wanted to become a US client state, even asking veiled permission to invade from the US ambassador, who stated to Iraqi officals:"The United States takes no sides in Inter Arab conflicts"
Iraq had also made a point in the preceding years to distance it self from the then still strong Soviet Union and buy more of theri goods from western sources.
4) During Desert Storm and desert Shield all sorts of atrocity stories were floating around teh US media whipping up a war frenzy.Almost all of those were freely invented.Who remembers the gripping story of a little girl presumbaly rescued from occupied Kuwait?She testified in front of congress sobbing about how she saw evil Iraqi soldiers lift babis from incubators so they could steal the incubators, killing the bais in process.
After the war it turned out she was the Kuwait ambassadors daughter who never was in Kuwait at the time and hadnt been there in years!!
I hate being lied to!
The same with the majority of all the other atrocity stories, but they galvanized the US public into going to war.
Anybody remebr the chemical massacre at the kurdish village oif Halabja?
It frequently gets quoted even now by elected officails in their efforts to demonize S H. (supposedly "the man who gasses his own people")
What many may not know, is that just before desert Shield the US war Acamdemy made a study, published at teh time in (among otehrs) the US Army Chemical Corps Magazine.this study found with a hi dregree of confidence, that it was NOT teh Iraqis who made that attack.
Why? and How?
Iran was also fighting the Kurds at the time (the kurds get it from everybody: a third of turkey our "glorious Ally in the fight for democracy" is actually kurdish and its population opressed via beatings. murders rapes etc)
Iran also used chemical weapons, so why did they find it was Iran?
Among the agents used other than teh common Mustard ,which was in both Iraq's and Irans arsenal, was also Cyanide.
An agent that had NEVER been used by the Iraqis and however had been a mainstay of the Iranian chem arsenal for years.
As a result teh Army investigators concluded it was Iran not Iraq that attacked that kurdish village.I wished I would ahve saved that editon then I think our magazine was called "the dragon Soldier" or something like that.
In the meantime the halabja massacre has been used time and again to demonize a regime, that to this day allows christian kurds to serve in responsible postions in its military.
Do most Kurds want autonomy or even seccesion? yes! Do many of them fight the Iraqui regime? Yes! BUT: and they have always had much more autonomy and rights in Iraq, such as teaching theiri language in schools, than they do in the "pillar of the free world" Turkey.
Turkey to whom we have been selling billions of $$ worth of arms including a prodction facilty for F16's.
----------------------
After the war PPL get talking about the need to "finsih the job", what job?Just becasue they were so caught up in teh dmonization Of iraq and their attitudes were formed by atrocity stories long admitted to be inventions?
Also waht about terrorism?
Iraq is ruled by teh Baath party of with sadaam Hussein is merely the strong man.This party for decades has spent it' s oil revenues on building bridges hiways, hospitals, and buildign up domestic manufacturing capabilty.
Their government is acting mcuh more responsible with its peoples intersts in mind, than those of the gulf states, our 'aliies' who spedns billions of $$ on building palaces , pleasure gardens in the desert, fleest of Mercedes Benzes.
What about terrorism?Iraq has often fought islamic extremists (funny story they have an anti -terror training camp south of bagdad which was advertised in the US media lately as a trainingcamp for terrorists "according to US giv sources", snicker:rolleyes:..)
A formerly implacent enemy of islamic fundamentalists (irak) is now being pushed ( by US) more an more into a rapproachement w/ them.(Sooner or later, Irak might have to give up their vigirous anti AlQaida stance, which they held for a many years, but ONLY becasue our foreign policy INSISTS of manufacturing an enemy out of Irak......)
When they are speculating of Fox about "saddam terror connection" their are either being ignorant or intentionally misleading.(Or predicting a possible future that our policies have created)
Anyway folks I will probably delete this post in a few days, as my current employer does not encourage dissent and as soon as war starts, intelligent analysis may be considered to be uncomfortably close to"gving aid and comfort".
Fred...
PS: One more thing about WMD; as I have spent my entire adult life working with, teaching about, training with and about WMD, I would like to point this out:
Is it possbile to have WMD after an insepction regime? yes.Is is posbile to have a significant capability of WMD after an inspection regime? No!!!
yes, thehre can always be alittle bit of this and that hidden away, but it doesn't matter; to use/deploy WMD you need an intact WMD infastructure.That infrastructure is big and cannot(!) be easuily hidden.
Our inteligence agencies have produced msyterious pictures of buldings alleging their are WMD facilities of some kind, time and again, when they wer checked they were clearly not.
You canNOT just unbolt a couple of machines and throw them on a truck, in a half hour, even a day ot two, is NOT enough notice for WMD production to be hidden.
It just cant be done. Inspectors would always find traces of Agents using techiniques such as GC/MS,FT-IR, PCR (interested parties can look those up on web), (am not making this up have used all these myself.)
If NSA and CIA had found ANY of the much quoted "evidence" our spindoctors would have had it over our media in no time.
Yet NEVER were they able to produce even circumstanbtial evidence of a CURRENT WMD capabuility in Iraq of any significance.
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MaineExport
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Which all goes to show that propaganda flows both ways. Thank you for that post Fred.... it was enlightening to hear sides of the argument that we don't see every day. It is kind of uncomforting to hear some of that coming from you, but atleast we have free thinking individuals protecting our country!
The only point I would dispute is that they have had 10 years to hide WMD infrastructure. They kicked inspectors out in 93 (or was it 94?). In a decade it would be EASY to move manufactoring and storage facilities OUTSIDE the borders of their country. They would NOT have allowed inspectors back in had they not firmly believed they could effectively hide their weapons systems. We probably WON'T find any evidence, but that doesn't mean their WMD infrastructre doesn't exist.
The only point I would dispute is that they have had 10 years to hide WMD infrastructure. They kicked inspectors out in 93 (or was it 94?). In a decade it would be EASY to move manufactoring and storage facilities OUTSIDE the borders of their country. They would NOT have allowed inspectors back in had they not firmly believed they could effectively hide their weapons systems. We probably WON'T find any evidence, but that doesn't mean their WMD infrastructre doesn't exist.
maineimport wrote:Which all goes to show that propaganda flows both ways. Thank you for that post Fred.... it was enlightening to hear sides of the argument that we don't see every day. It is kind of uncomforting to hear some of that coming from you, but atleast we have free thinking individuals protecting our country!
The only point I would dispute is that they have had 10 years to hide WMD infrastructure. They kicked inspectors out in 93 (or was it 94?). In a decade it would be EASY to move manufactoring and storage facilities OUTSIDE the borders of their country. They would NOT have allowed inspectors back in had they not firmly believed they could effectively hide their weapons systems. We probably WON'T find any evidence, but that doesn't mean their WMD infrastructre doesn't exist.
Actaully insepctors didnt leave until 98 ( some of which I have personally met BTW)
Iraq and alwasy invited them back in all along under the reasonable condition, of some assurance, that they would not be used for tageting by interested thrid parties (ie US)
Dr Ritter (one of the leading inspectors then), himself has admitted, or rather made a point of it, that teh Iraqi concrns were justified.
Also Iraq is simply too poor at this point to easily rebuold a capability of any significance, especilly with its surface constantly being watched by satellites.
Also remote IR sensing makes it VERY difficult to operate production facilties, as hiding their emissions would be a challenge even for a country with our capabilities.
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MaineExport
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miteymax86 wrote:HMMMMMMMMMMM....Why not just send in some Rangers or Seals or a similar small, elite, tactical unit and assassinate Hussein, a bunch of his successors and then organize a mass invasion by the UN for peacekeeping and putting the government we want in place?
Using assasination as a means of warfare IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. This opens a whole new can of worms. Every country and fringe group has snipers. Assasinantions could possibly become a means of warfare, in which everyone will be in danger at all times. This also simply kills leaders, which will make true war efforts all that more difficult...for both sides. Another thing is that Saddam uses many body doubles for public events, ect. Finding him is not the easiest thing in the world. He also has many succesors, two sons that are considered to be more brutal than him.
That was very informative Fred...makes me look at things differently, and shows most of us that our "informed" opinions go only as far as the sensationalized TV and newspapers we read and watch. The only thing I disagree with is the terrorlst part. Hussein and his state may not be accepting of Islamics, ect, but the point I was trying to make is that if an area (the Middle East) is in complete turmoil, there is less focus on finding and erraticating terrorlst cells, fundraising, arming, training, ect. The US is also very against terrorism, yet we served as the residence for known terrorists for YEARS, and we were in peace time.
wow, thats all I have to say after reading fred's post, the most informative post I have read in awhile, and like APEXi240 said itQuote »makes me look at things differently, and shows most of us that our "informed" opinions go only as far as the sensationalized TV and newspapers we read and watch.[/quote]On the subject of canada, I have found one thing they have going for em, Much Music, alot better then that MTV stuff, imo.
I think this was a good thread to debate about, and like hitman said, the level of maturity was maintained.
Iam gonna let the topic go, since it is gonna be deleted anyways, but now I have mixed feelings about the whole situation, damn politics.
I think this was a good thread to debate about, and like hitman said, the level of maturity was maintained.
Iam gonna let the topic go, since it is gonna be deleted anyways, but now I have mixed feelings about the whole situation, damn politics.
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MasterMan
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Quote » BTW..... it's no mystery who bombs Isreal. For nearly a decade Clinton told them not to retaliate while the world watched them get bombed. I wonder how you would feel if you lived there and every other day another suicide b0mber killed 10 or 20 of your neighbors, family members, and friends. [/quote]accully i do know someone that lives in isreal, and the bombings (to him) have become a way of life, they just deal with it.. or so he says
MasterMan wrote:accully i do know someone that lives in isreal, and the bombings (to him) have become a way of life, they just deal with it.. or so he says
That is sad, no one should have to "just deal with it". That is a sad way of life and is destroying the people, it is amazing what we americans take for granted, I could not be able to live there and get in a bus and wonder to myself if this is going to be my last ride.
Another example of disinformation on the nightly news:
Just now, I saw a news special, about the Ricin the Brits found in some North African immigrants apt.
The commentary explained:" Ricin is a poison that has been linked to alQuaida and Irak"
Linked how? by whom? just about any major country on the planet has toyed with ricin as weapon and many have some in stcokThey might as well have said "linked to the USA, France, Russia etcetc.." Then they went on to say " blah blah blah and also by a terrroist group known to operate out of northern Irak..."
This statement was then left standing there w/ no further pertinent information:Giving the (clearly intended) impression to the viewer, that the Iraqis are somehow in collusion with terrorists making Ricin, maybe even the exact ones caught in Britain..:nono
FACT: The govt of Irak has littlwe or no control over most of northern Irak, between kurdish autonomy, turkish inflitration (to fight kurds) iranian infiltration (same reason) and no fly zone, all sorts of people have control there, except the govt under SH.
Yet this somehow, magically, was not explained to the viewer, seeding him to draw the wrong conclusions, about Iraq and any alleged "terrorlst ties".
Fred....
PS; the truth is powerful as long as you arent afraid to use it.
Just now, I saw a news special, about the Ricin the Brits found in some North African immigrants apt.
The commentary explained:" Ricin is a poison that has been linked to alQuaida and Irak"
Linked how? by whom? just about any major country on the planet has toyed with ricin as weapon and many have some in stcokThey might as well have said "linked to the USA, France, Russia etcetc.." Then they went on to say " blah blah blah and also by a terrroist group known to operate out of northern Irak..."
This statement was then left standing there w/ no further pertinent information:Giving the (clearly intended) impression to the viewer, that the Iraqis are somehow in collusion with terrorists making Ricin, maybe even the exact ones caught in Britain..:nono
FACT: The govt of Irak has littlwe or no control over most of northern Irak, between kurdish autonomy, turkish inflitration (to fight kurds) iranian infiltration (same reason) and no fly zone, all sorts of people have control there, except the govt under SH.
Yet this somehow, magically, was not explained to the viewer, seeding him to draw the wrong conclusions, about Iraq and any alleged "terrorlst ties".
Fred....
PS; the truth is powerful as long as you arent afraid to use it.
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Stoneage_Turbo
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Just about anything
wow fred that first post of yours was really somethin , i didnt expect your veiws to be like that , but i do agree somewhat , just a little scared your superiors might see it , be careful dude ...
good info tho , cheers
so do you think he would supply terrorists with weapons or would Rogue indiviuals in his country do it ?
as we saw with the arrests in london today sometime chem terror stuff can be made in your neibors back yard ..could be moonshine too , never hurts to ask
regan did help the iraqis at one time ..he musta saw something
just found out as soon as this war pops loose im stoplossed...almost got out in 4 years ...
but ill have controll over all mantenace done on firetrucks here and run the tire operations here also , alot of responsiblity for a e-4 that up until lately no coworkers had respect for huh ? all because they have to send most of the firetruck kids out
almost got a 18 day tour at korea today to , im bummed i didnt get it "Date Of Seperation too close"...oh well
good info tho , cheers
so do you think he would supply terrorists with weapons or would Rogue indiviuals in his country do it ?
as we saw with the arrests in london today sometime chem terror stuff can be made in your neibors back yard ..could be moonshine too , never hurts to ask
regan did help the iraqis at one time ..he musta saw something
just found out as soon as this war pops loose im stoplossed...almost got out in 4 years ...
but ill have controll over all mantenace done on firetrucks here and run the tire operations here also , alot of responsiblity for a e-4 that up until lately no coworkers had respect for huh ? all because they have to send most of the firetruck kids out
almost got a 18 day tour at korea today to , im bummed i didnt get it "Date Of Seperation too close"...oh well
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skydragoness
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MaineExport
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As long as we all realize that the SOURCE is more important than the message. Media feeds you some things, government feeds you some things, friends/family/peers feed you some things, and people 'in-the-know' feed you some things. Sometimes opinion can be disguised as fact.
ALWAYS be skeptical of the source of the information.... especially the media and idiots like me, but also including Fred.
(no offense)
ALWAYS be skeptical of the source of the information.... especially the media and idiots like me, but also including Fred.
(no offense)-
darkeagle
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In history class at college our teacher made sense of it all and gave great views on the history and a lil on what was happening. But one thing our history teacher told us is that the media does and will have tendency to "sugar coat" whats going on just to get a story, to get the attention of the people so they can hear what they have to say about it and that dont even know themselves the exact truth.
I've heard some about this war and stuff with Iraq, but havent heard all of it. That was really good what I read, Fred.
Only thing I've paid close attention to is the unemployment b/c my mom was unemployed and thanks to Bush extending the unemployment my mom went on to recieve her check. She's been unemployed since June 2002, but was finally called today for work. That was best news all year. If it wasnt for the extension I doubt my mom would have kept getting the unemployment benefits causing a really bad and worse time at my household, but luckily it didnt. But I give credit to that on good thing Bush has done. 
I've heard some about this war and stuff with Iraq, but havent heard all of it. That was really good what I read, Fred.
Only thing I've paid close attention to is the unemployment b/c my mom was unemployed and thanks to Bush extending the unemployment my mom went on to recieve her check. She's been unemployed since June 2002, but was finally called today for work. That was best news all year. If it wasnt for the extension I doubt my mom would have kept getting the unemployment benefits causing a really bad and worse time at my household, but luckily it didnt. But I give credit to that on good thing Bush has done. -
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Bravo Fred -
Always nice to get a different viewpoint on matters such as these. You guys don't know what a wealth of information this guy (Fred) is... Hope you all get an opportunity to talk with him on the phone (or meet in person). Made all the more impressive when you consider he isn't born and bred in the US.
BTW, I have some more history for you guys, while we're on the topic of international relations, history, oppression, terrorism, and the like. Regarding the Armenian people, who were persecuted, sought out and systematically slaughtered by the Ottoman Empire (Turks) around the turn of the century. The atrocities committed against this group (a Christian nation, I might add) far exceeded (in numbers killed) those experienced by the Jews during Hitler's reign of power (true - look it up). Many fled to neighboring countries and even overseas to avoid the horrible conditions imposed upon them. At present, their country no longer exists, and their language and customs are pretty much lost forever. These little-known facts are made all the more obscure because they're not a "sympathetic" group (Armenians were stereotyped as gypsies and thieves) unlike like the Jewish people.
How do I know? My grandfather had no family remaining. Fled his homeland and arrived at Ellis Island, New York. There he lost his given name and was "assigned" an American name. He met a woman there and my father was born soon thereafter as a first-generation American.
Always nice to get a different viewpoint on matters such as these. You guys don't know what a wealth of information this guy (Fred) is... Hope you all get an opportunity to talk with him on the phone (or meet in person). Made all the more impressive when you consider he isn't born and bred in the US.
BTW, I have some more history for you guys, while we're on the topic of international relations, history, oppression, terrorism, and the like. Regarding the Armenian people, who were persecuted, sought out and systematically slaughtered by the Ottoman Empire (Turks) around the turn of the century. The atrocities committed against this group (a Christian nation, I might add) far exceeded (in numbers killed) those experienced by the Jews during Hitler's reign of power (true - look it up). Many fled to neighboring countries and even overseas to avoid the horrible conditions imposed upon them. At present, their country no longer exists, and their language and customs are pretty much lost forever. These little-known facts are made all the more obscure because they're not a "sympathetic" group (Armenians were stereotyped as gypsies and thieves) unlike like the Jewish people.
How do I know? My grandfather had no family remaining. Fled his homeland and arrived at Ellis Island, New York. There he lost his given name and was "assigned" an American name. He met a woman there and my father was born soon thereafter as a first-generation American.
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MaineExport
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palmerwmd wrote:I give out for free information, that is the summary of <years> of hard work on this exact subject.
What you do with this gift is up to you.
Fred....:rolleyes
Like I said.... no offense intended... and as AZ said, I meant no disrespect. I also went out of my way to thank you for the information and enlightened point of view.
But I am ALWAYS skeptical of information in whatever way it is presented and by whomever the source happens to be. Anyone who does otherwise is foolish and ignorant.
I guess to paraphrase myself:
The source of the information is more relevant than the actual message.
Obviously a military officer is going to have a more educated and informed view of this particular topic than most civilians or press reporters. But neither source should be taken as 'gospel' because everybody has opinions and that cannot help but be transmitted though the message.
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DenverQ
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Hmm
I usally dont make many comments, but it seams to me when we are down or whatever its always the "Worst" it has been. How many times can it be the "Worst"?
All I can say is that the early 90's it was just as bad and unemployment just now reached the rate it was in 94.
Also most of all the economic stuff we are seeing is stuff from the previous congress and president.
Just my 2 cents
All I can say is that the early 90's it was just as bad and unemployment just now reached the rate it was in 94.
Also most of all the economic stuff we are seeing is stuff from the previous congress and president.
Just my 2 cents
What ever happened to peace?What happened to Bush talking about peace and stopping terrorism?
Bush is no better than the rest.... were all frigging terorrists.. the only difference is we aren't running a country...
Thank you bush for being an idiot... i hope you have the decency to keep Canada out of your fuked up wars...
Bush is no better than the rest.... were all frigging terorrists.. the only difference is we aren't running a country...
Thank you bush for being an idiot... i hope you have the decency to keep Canada out of your fuked up wars...
maineimport wrote:Like I said.... no offense intended... and as AZ said, I meant no disrespect. I also went out of my way to thank you for the information and enlightened point of view. .
Perhaps I was a bit oversensitive.
Reason is I take a lot of pride, in trying VERY hard to see things in teh most objective way humanly possible.How else could I have possibly arrived at the conclusions I hinted at, in my first post on this subject?
Surely you can appreciate that it would have been alot easier for me emotionally, just to go along with the mainstream thought on this issue.
But regardless of whether it makes my sense of self, more comfortable or not, I will ALWAYS embrace the hard truth, no matter how horrible it may be.
When I anlayze somethign I will set out a method, follow it w/o regards to wether I enjoy the conclusions or not.
I also have no self interest connected to any side of this issue,(or if anything I have self-interest in the opposite side of the issue than what I am forced to conclude).
Fred...:angel
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MaineExport
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.... Yup Fred, for very similar reasons, this is why I take everything with a grain of salt. One can hear opinions from all different angles, and even the same information from two different sources can have contrary implications. The 'source' is, again, the deciding factor behind how that message is received.I entirely respect your opinions and I can see how it may not be in your best interest to come to the conclusions that you have. I don't envy the position this puts you in.
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MaineExport
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