Your Thoughts: Iraq and war.

[Mayhem_J30]

And to the N. Koreans, SIT DOWN AND WAIT YOUR TURN. Damn, kids we'll get there when we get there. Have some kimchee and relax.

We've been there for WAY to long already. They've had their chance.On top of it, did you guys see the interview (don't remember his name) but he was a 3-star general in Korea?

[VimyJ]

The Independedent ticket will continue to siphon off critical Dem votes for years to come.

The world would be a different place if Nader hadn't run. Too bad he thwarted many of his own goals.

I would love to see another mainstream political party in the US. It is unique to American democracy that there are only two real parties and they have very appropriate names. The Democrats espouse democracy and the Republicans promote republicanism. Through a quirk of fate, we now have an administration put into power by the apparatus of the repblic (Electoral College). W didn't win the democratic election but he did win in the republican one.

PS Be careful how you observe the capitaliztion/noncapitalization of words when reading the above.

[FrEaK]

If Bush does this, he'll alienate the Muslim countries, and this will make it harder for him to stage military attacks on Al Quaeda, from the middle east....

[VimyJ]

DM says, "I fear that our true motivation is about oil and our own flailing economy; about the failure to destroy Al Qaeda and about revenge. It is criminal to put our servicemen and women in harm's way and to put the lives of so many civilians on the line for the misguided frustrations of the Bush administration." - ummm...i thought we were doing this to prevent future terrorism and combat evil in the future and all that yada. Anyone else remeber 9/11??

There's the rub. There has been no conclusive evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda though W wants you to believe there is. It can even be reasonably argued that an invasion of Iraq by Western powers could drive the two together in order defend against a common enemy. Saddam is secular and absolutely does not want a radical theocracy of the kind envisioned by Bin Laden established in his country.

[MaineExport]

Vimy... can you remind me again how the Bush family has a vested interest in the Iraq oil thing? I must have missed something. From where I stand... it looks like they will make more money if we DON'T get Iraq's oil.... seeing as most of the Bush family oil is domestic. Just curious....

[VimyJ]

Vimy... can you remind me again how the Bush family has a vested interest in the Iraq oil thing? I must have missed something. From where I stand... it looks like they will make more money if we DON'T get Iraq's oil.... seeing as most of the Bush family oil is domestic. Just curious....

First, Dave Mathews has just as much right to spout opinion as any of us here. Second, his success as a musician (Disclaimer: I'm not really a fan of Mathews) proves that he has something on the ball. Frankly, I've never met an unintelligent successful musician, a few stupid ones yes (there is a difference e.g. Nugent is stupid but not unintelligent ), but not intelectually challenged ones. Actors are another story. I believe Hemingway said, "An actress is something more than a woman but an acter is something less than a man". Wasn't Chuck Heston an acter? I digress.

Back on point, the Bush family has been in bed with the Saudi Royal family for years. A major Bush business interest is the Carlisle (sp?) Group. This is a company that developes major oil related projects in that area of the world. There is a connection to Afghanistan through this company. I don't have a map of the region in front of me but one of the 'Stans to the north of Afghanistan is very rich in land locked oil. There is no way to get that oil money into the Bush's pocket except by building a pipeline (can you also say Haliburton?) through Afghanistan. This had been blocked because of the hostile regime in Kabul.

Now, I'm not saying this was the only reason for the overthrow of the Taliban but isn't it also interesting that Bin Laden is a staunch anti royalist? He depises the Saudi royals for allowing the infidels to despoil the home of Mecca. Things are not as clear cut as Dubya & Co. would have you believe but once you begin putting the pieces of the puzzle together you start to get a pretty easy to understand picture of what "considerations" are at work. Money is the driving force here no matter how you slice it. Carlylse's (sp?) future would be much more solid with a tamed Iraq.

[RYNO_s13]

That's all well and good, and you are correct in that the Bush family has been in with the Saudi's since Bin Ladin's daddy was smearing Poo on the walls. However, there's an issue that comes up concerning the whole Islam/Wetern thing. Before the "exploitation" of middle eastern oil began, most of the middle east was tribal societies much like Afganistan is. When all the money and western influence came screaming into the region, it had a HUGE impact on the way people lived. The materialism and lifestyle changes that this sudden influx of $$ caused is one of the large reasons that Radical Muslim groups exist. It's a paradox really, without the money from the west (read US) many middle eastern countries would be even closer to the stone age than they are. The region hasn't adjusted to the massive changes that were caused relatively few years ago (from a history standpoint) and until they do, and these nations can exist on an equal footing, the rest of us are going to have to keep on our toes.

[AZhitman]

I split the discussion of entertainers off into its own thread. Let's get back to our discussion of killing people and breaking expensive things.

[AZhitman]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...x.htm

Remember the Iraqi response to our recent shuttle tragedy? You see anyone in America celebrating such a tragedy in the Arab world? Think we're dancing in the streets at their misfortune and grief? Will we go on record as saying this was God's will, punishing them for their ways? I THINK NOT.

This should make it real clear whose hearts are in the right place.

[FrEaK]

The only place Saddams heart belongs is on the end of a pointy stick in front of the whitehouse....

[Mayhem_J30]

I split the discussion of entertainers off into its own thread. Let's get back to our discussion of killing people and breaking expensive things.

I'm putting this one back into this post. I think that's where it belongs:

So let me get this straight, people are risking their life and doing this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

To protect people that do this: http://abcnews.go.com/sections....html

give me a friggin break tree huggers. Sorry, i haven't had my coffee yet.

[Mayhem_J30]

Here's an article that implies that al queda and Iraq act as one. http://story.news.yahoo.com/ne..._iraq

In other news, can someone explain to me WHY no one wants to defend Turkey, and why Iraq would want to attack Turkey. I tried searching for info but there's SOOO much stuff on the internet about all this.

[VimyJ]

From an AOL ews report on the latest Bin Laden tape:

"The speaker on the tape said nothing about direct ties between al-Qaida and the Iraqi government - saying his followers only share a common interest with Iraq, even though he denounced Saddam's secular, socialist al-Baath party as ''infidels.'' "

Sure looks like the Saddam/Al Qaeda link is a triffle suspect.

It appears that some here misunderstand my viewpoint on this Iraq thing. If the UN inspectors come up with something substantial and the Security Council sanctions war then I am all for tearing down the House of Saddam. Please remember that I believe that ultimately there will be a war between east and west. This is the war that Bin Laden et al. crave. I would simply like to have the Western world unified in the cause before hostilities begin. Unfortunately, W's substandard evidence isn't convincing some of the major world powers to fall in line and who can blame them. The evidence is embarrassingly weak. Since there is no proof of the US's allegations what other reasons would W & Co. have to go to war in such a hurry? Could elections have any bearing on this effort? Would a compliant Iraq be better for the world economy? Does W have an axe to grind?

Feel free to use your imaginations. The W administration is using theirs. Artists renditions and a vial of icing sugar? Sheesh.

[VimyJ]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/w...x.htm

Remember the Iraqi response to our recent shuttle tragedy? You see anyone in America celebrating such a tragedy in the Arab world? Think we're dancing in the streets at their misfortune and grief? Will we go on record as saying this was God's will, punishing them for their ways? I THINK NOT.

This should make it real clear whose hearts are in the right place.

AZ, you must have known that not all US citizens would be as gracious as you wish. This is a typical quote from a typical AOL chat room: "Allah has you guys throwing rocks at a pillar and stomping each other to death LOL!!!!!!"

Ignorance knows no boundaries sad to say.

[TrueSlide]

Vimy... can you remind me again how the Bush family has a vested interest in the Iraq oil thing? I must have missed something. From where I stand... it looks like they will make more money if we DON'T get Iraq's oil.... seeing as most of the Bush family oil is domestic. Just curious....

How will they make more money if they dont take IRAQ oil? They will be expanding their markets, we and alot of countries probley buy IRAQI oil, therefore they can sell more oil to them countries which in turn bring in more income. Its abount expanding their market. They will make alot more $$ if they take IRAQ oil. Thats the way I see it, the more you have, the more you sell the more you make.

[MaineExport]

How will they make more money if they dont take IRAQ oil? They will be expanding their markets, we and alot of countries probley buy IRAQI oil, therefore they can sell more oil to them countries which in turn bring in more income. Its abount expanding their market. They will make alot more $$ if they take IRAQ oil. Thats the way I see it, the more you have, the more you sell the more you make.

Because if we invade Iraq and establish a new regime.... Bush doesn't get Iraq's oil.... Iraq gets Iraq's oil. They then sell it to the US and the Bush family of domestic oil makes LESS money because of the whole supply/demand curve. There is NO direct connection between the Bush family and Sadam's oil... and the round about theory presented earlier is like saying you and I are cousins because we visit the same car forum.

Bush can't just TAKE Iraq's oil.... doesn't work that way... unless you are a middle-eastern leader that has been known to do such things. **cough**<Kuwait>**cough**

[VimyJ]

Because if we invade Iraq and establish a new regime.... Bush doesn't get Iraq's oil.... Iraq gets Iraq's oil. They then sell it to the US and the Bush family of domestic oil makes LESS money because of the whole supply/demand curve. There is NO direct connection between the Bush family and Sadam's oil... and the round about theory presented earlier is like saying you and I are cousins because we visit the same car forum.

Bush can't just TAKE Iraq's oil.... doesn't work that way... unless you are a middle-eastern leader that has been known to do such things. **cough**<Kuwait>**cough**

And what pray tell is the difference between W's invasion of a country or Saddam's? It's all about money. The Carlisle group would be in a much more stabile and profitable position if an unfriendly tyrant is removed from the oil patch. Iraq is a direct threat to Saudi Arabia and therefore to the Bush family. The question is of control of the supply. There is a direct and absolute connection between W and Iraq.

You must also realize that oil is a commodity. Just because the US doesn't buy much oil from Iraq doesn't mean that it isn't sold to someone else like the French or Japanese, for instance. The markets are not digging this war talk one bit. It creates stabilty problems that are bad for business.

Hey, AZ, how are the Suburban fill ups going these days.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ "]And what pray tell is the difference between W's invasion of a country or Saddam's?

Ummm, do you really need an answer to that (maine asks rhetorically). I usually don't agree with your viewpoints, but I at least respect your opinions because they are based on some kind of rational thought processes. But if you honestly believe that a US invasion into Iraq is comparable to Saddam trying to annex an entire nation and eliminate it's very existance... then I pitty you.

It's all about money.

I can't even fathom the narrow-minded outlook it would take to believe that. You present the guise of an enlightened free thinker, yet you are blinded by reality. I shutter to think that anyone beyond you believes this rubbish.

There is a direct and absolute connection between W and Iraq.

No s***.... really? However, that absolute and direct link isn't oil.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ The question is of control of the supply.

Yes, and Iraq will have control over that supply... not Bush.

[VimyJ]

Originally posted by VimyJ The question is of control of the supply.

Yes, and Iraq will have control over that supply... not Bush.

You still have much to learn, grasshopper.

[MaineExport]

You still have much to learn, grasshopper.

Yes, don't we all?:rolleyes

Any way... the oil of Iraq will be left in the hands of Iraq. Bush is not a fan of nation building... as can be seen in Afganistan... we left that up to them for better or worse.

Hey... at least I know I have room for improvement.

Edit: At 26 I am honored to be considered a grasshopper... life is one big lesson... when we stop giving true consideration to the opportunity to learn... we tend to strand ourselves upon the soapbox.

[VimyJ]

Yes, don't we all?

Any way... the oil of Iraq will be left in the hands of Iraq. Bush is not a fan of nation building... as can be seen in Afganistan... we left that up to them for better or worse.

Hey... at least I know I have room for improvement.

And a tame Iraq will not be a threat to Saudi Arabia. All nation states are primarily economic protectorates. Every nation carves off some kind of boundary that says to all others that the resources contained within belong to the entity that set them up. This is one reason why there is a big fence between Mexico and the US and not one between Canada and the US. Canadians don't covet the US because they are pretty well set in terms of assets. Mexico is poor and its citizens want a piece of the action so they are in effect invading much to the consternation of the INS.

Iraq, on the other hand, poses a great risk to the economic foundation of the West. Imagine if Iraq were to take over Arabia. The oil would then belong to Iraq. A tamed Iraq would be open to exploitation by the West. A lot of money to be made for those in the right position to capitalize on it. The Carlisle Group could profit handsomely from such an arrangement. Haliburton could make some serious coin too. The only threat - and it is serious to a degree - Iraq poses is an economic one. The rest of the arguments are merely window dressing for public comsumption. Human rights abuses are taking place in many areas of the globe as we speak but W & Co. aren't too interested in them.

[MaineExport]

Vimy contribued"]The only threat - and it is serious to a degree - Iraq poses is an economic one.

Phew ....:rolleyes so Isreal, Kuwait and other neighbors have nothing to worry about if he does develop WMDs. If his only intentions were to keep to himself and harm no one... why has he made it a policy to terrorize his neighbors.

Yet in a previous comment you suggested, "Imagine if Iraq were to take over Arabia. The oil would then belong to Iraq."

So which is it... is he just an economic threat... or is he looking to make a grand conquest of the region.

All nation states are primarily economic protectorates. Every nation carves off some kind of boundary that says to all others that the resources contained within belong to the entity that set them up. This is one reason why there is a big fence between Mexico and the US and not one between Canada and the US. Canadians don't covet the US because they are pretty well set in terms of assets. Mexico is poor and its citizens want a piece of the action

Which is why most illegal immigrants from mexico start their own corporations and take advantage of our prescious resources.... right?! No, they come here because their quality of life is worse than the vermin that feed off their feces. They know that our handouts will sustain a minimal existance that looks like a nirvana in comparison with what they were born into.

[AZhitman]

Hey, AZ, how are the Suburban fill ups going these days.

Wonderfully - I can sleep well at night knowing my $68/week is directly or indirectly improving the quality of life for several people, some who are less fortunate than I (the station attendant, the station owner, the delivery driver, the oil field worker) and some who are more fortunate.

I look forward to the roughly 15 minutes I spend pumping fuel in our PERFECT Arizona weather, enjoying the breeze, sipping a Slurpee and interacting with my fellow man.

[FrEaK]

Wonderfully - I can sleep well at night knowing my $68/week is directly or indirectly improving the quality of life for several people, some who are less fortunate than I (the station attendant, the station owner, the delivery driver, the oil field worker) and some who are more fortunate.

I look forward to the roughly 15 minutes I spend pumping fuel in our PERFECT Arizona weather, enjoying the breeze, sipping a Slurpee and interacting with my fellow man.

I hate you, because 15 minutes out here, is another 3 weeks of frostbite...

[VimyJ]

I look forward to the roughly 15 minutes I spend pumping fuel in our PERFECT Arizona weather, enjoying the breeze, sipping a Slurpee and interacting with my fellow man.

You're at least keeping the truck running while filling up, eh? For an even sounder sleep, have you considered keeping the 'Burban idling overnight? Saves wear and tear on the starter.

[VimyJ]

More food for thought:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com.../1/6/

However, in regard to oil prices, they can only go so high. Extracting, petroleum from oil sands in Canada and oil shale in the US becomes economically viable when prices reach ~$40/bbl. These sources of oil are huge. I have heard that they amount to 15 times the known conventional reserves.

[MaineExport]

I was sent this as an interesting take on recent anti-war protests.. thought I would share:

289 Million Americans Avoid Peace Rallies (2003-01-19) -- Police across the nation estimate the crowd thatavoided yesterday's anti-war demonstrations at about 289 million.Americans from coast-to-coast voted in absentia against criticizing theBush administration for Iraq's failure to comply with U.N. resolutions.

Anti-anti-war demonstrators gathered in grocery stores, shopping mallsand private homes to proclaim their disagreement with protestorsmarching in the streets of Washington D.C. and San Francisco.

"Going about my regular Saturday routine is my way of saying I disagreewith the radical left-wing agenda of the anti-Bush crowd," said collegestudent Melanie Sampson, who spent the day preparing a term paper for aliterature course.

Police reported no unusual problems with the droves that stayed awayfrom the protests.

"It was a normal Saturday in America," said one Sheriff's deputy.

I don't have a reference to cite... sorry.

[TrueSlide]

Awesome, since all them people support the war, lets give them some guns and send them out to fight and see how much they like/support it.

[gh0stx]

Hey.. Our armed forces are all volunteer, and thats exactly what we do True my man. It's our job to do the things we do so you can have an opinon without fear of being shot in the face.

AHHHHHHH no more noobness!