The Official Election Thread

[Drift Machine]

I was raised in Scotland, my dad was raised in Ireland, and my mom was raised in Holland.

WAY WAY WAY off topic but what part of Ireland and Scotland?

[NY94J30]

wr

Have you never altered your personal philsophy? People should constantly question and debate their personal philosophies, its what makes us who we are. People act like it is a crime to change your stance on a subject, which only premotes closed-mindedness. Call me a flip-flopper if you like.

I assume you're younger (late teens, early 20s, correct me if I'm wrong), and I think you will find with enough introspection that there comes a time where you're philosphy will not change, though perhaps your world view will. The key however, you are right, is introspection. In order that you be able to defend your ideologies - which many cannot - you must find there bases, not their social applications.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

WAY WAY WAY off topic but what part of Ireland and Scotland?

Edinburgh and Clonakilty (country Cork). Hopeing to go visit again in 2006.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

wrI assume you're younger (late teens, early 20s, correct me if I'm wrong), and I think you will find with enough introspection that there comes a time where you're philosphy will not change, though perhaps your world view will. The key however, you are right, is introspection. In order that you be able to defend your ideologies - which many cannot - you must find there bases, not their social applications.

Yes I'm almost 22. I really hope that as I get older I continue to learn new things which continue to evolve my perspective. Shouldn't your world view be an intrinsic part of your beleifs? It just seems like it's hopeless when people refuse to even discuss WHY they beleive what they beleive. America is the most powerfull nation in the world, yet there is some sort of weird cultural taboo against discussing your ideologies, espeicially with someone who disagrees. With out discussion people start to fall into the political hype about who is more articulate, or who has a weird looking face, or who has changed their mind in the past, or who is richer. Everyone ignores the actual politics.

[gabossie]

I've been all over the political spectrum as a former liberal Democrat, a Libertarian, a Republican, and a Libertarian/Republican (LP/RLC/GOP)

FLIP FLOPPER!!!

Heh, sorry, you know I couldn't resist I carry no ill feelings toward anyone in here, this is just a voicing of political opinions, which everyone is of course entitled to. The only thing in here at all that gets me upset, is when people resort to personal insults, which simply have no place here and do nothing but insult the intelligence of the person speaking. I assume this thread will be locked soon, although I hope not deleted. It does have SOME good stuff, and is worth a read for anyone else who feels the need to post a political thread up here. Exposure to others beliefs is a good thing, it's how thought evolvs.

[NY94J30]

Yes I'm almost 22. I really hope that as I get older I continue to learn new things which continue to evolve my perspective. Shouldn't your world view be an intrinsic part of your beleifs? It just seems like it's hopeless when people refuse to even discuss WHY they beleive what they beleive. America is the most powerfull nation in the world, yet there is some sort of weird cultural taboo against discussing your ideologies, espeicially with someone who disagrees. With out discussion people start to fall into the political hype about who is more articulate, or who has a weird looking face, or who has changed their mind in the past, or who is richer. Everyone ignores the actual politics.

One's world view is a product of his/her hard core of beliefs, yes. However, the more one is cognizant of his/her own subjectivity, the better able he/she is to distinguish between objective and subjective fact. My reference to world view was to the objective world - which is ever changing, and therefore, changing one's notion of the application of his/her beliefs.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

One's world view is a product of his/her hard core of beliefs, yes. However, the more one is cognizant of his/her own subjectivity, the better able he/she is to distinguish between objective and subjective fact. My reference to world view was to the objective world - which is ever changing, and therefore, changing one's notion of the application of his/her beliefs.

It seems to me that your beleifs should conform to your world view, not vice versa.

[NY94J30]

Exactly my point. However, we're moving into the realm of of philosophy here. My only real point was that if you anything here has changed your political beliefs, you had none to begin with.

[s13sr20chris]

My thought is that your understanding of the resoning behing Roe and Casey is marginal to none. I dont mean this as an insult, rather as an observation, inasmuch as your conception of the 14th A is simplified, at best. If you like, I'll try to break it down for you. But I guess my bottom line is that you would have to read the decisions in order to make a statement like the one you made - and clearly you haven't. While you think that judicial interpretation is akin to law making, it is necessitated by the lowest common demominator that stautes, and ultimately the Constitution are, and moreover the by the vagueness, ambiguity and ultimate inadequacy of language.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/con....htmllink to 14th amendmentplease tell me how the roe v wade decision could clarify this? is it important that i did not read it? im pretty sure this is a bigger fish and to get to the roe decision we would have to start here.

[Jesda]

FLIP FLOPPER!!!

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NY94J30]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/con....htmllink to 14th amendmentplease tell me how the roe v wade decision could clarify this? is it important that i did not read it? im pretty sure this is a bigger fish and to get to the roe decision we would have to start here.

Yes, the 14th A is clearly the genesis of the debate. However, in order that you might understand the 14th A, you'd have to look to the circumstances of its drafting, as well as that of the 5th A from which it is based. And further, you'd need look to the English Common Law. To save you from doing all this - in order to from an informed opinion as to the meaning of "life, liberty and propery" as well as "due process" - I thought you could read Roe and Casey, which will distill much of the discussion of the meaning of these terms.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Exactly my point. However, we're moving into the realm of of philosophy here. My only real point was that if you anything here has changed your political beliefs, you had none to begin with.

Only because no one is discussing actual policies. If someone can convince me I am wrong about something I beleive, then that doesn't mean all my other beleifs are worthless. This reminds me of that movie Adaptation.

[nismodave]

Thanks for your charming, eloquent, mind-shatteringly insightful, clear-eyed response. I sleep like a baby knowing there are compassionate souls like you out there.

Im being as eloquent and insightful as all of the Democrats have been with their remarks directed towards the leader of our country.

Damn right Im gloating.

Ive heard nothing but Bashing from Micheal Moore and HOLLYWEIRD, to Dashel and Kerry.

And Im Blowing off some steam.

Once Again............HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!

[gabossie]

LOL

You're the type of person that give others a bad name. You're only insulting your own intelligence here, not us.

[JDMaholic]

Exactly my point. However, we're moving into the realm of of philosophy here. My only real point was that if you anything here has changed your political beliefs, you had none to begin with.

Ooh philosophy my minor good stuff.......Hey the elections I'm done bitchin bout stuff as it has little effect, and fortunutely the candidates and parties are not at the extremes of the spectrum. unless they start drafting people I won't complain as it is pointless. Bye the way I woke up this moring and my liver was laying next to me crying, ever happen to anybody else mmm cheap beer good

[MaineExport]

LOL

You're the type of person that give others a bad name. You're only insulting your own intelligence here, not us.

Haha... as happy as I am with the outcome of the election, I am NOT one to gloat. But come on... give him a break, it's refreshing to see such enthusiasm!!

[CybeRise]

I dont want to argue with any liberals but all im going to say is im glad Bush won!!!

And Jeb Bush is gonna pwn Hillary Rodham Rodham in 08' $$

[CybeRise]

Oh and bush is starting to make major gains among hispanics which makes me so happy!

And to my friends on the left. Keep getting more insane and radical! That way we can keep winning elections!

Check it out

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5297138/
Modified by CybeRise at 7:09 AM 11/7/2004

[JESTER]

The problem with this country are people who disagree with what I said because the are Republican. You should be republican because you disagree with what I said, and you should be able to argue your convictions in a civilized manner. There is nothing inappropriate about voicing your beleifs.

Okay dude, I did a post on like page eight or nine and articullated everything I felt about this. Go back and do some reading. I am not one of your uninformed masses. Just because I am republican dont mean jack, I vote on the issues and the canidates. I was a democrate until I got more involved in the issues, and relized that my belifes are more in line with the way the republicans represent there views. Matter of fact, I am the only republican in my family. Also, I work for the government (local), and it pays to know what is going on, on the local, state, and federal levels.

But I have had my fill of this debate. My side won. Not saying GW is the best man to lead this country, but in my opinion, John Kerry is deffinetly the wrong man. You want to know why, go back and read my other posts in this thread. I will give you the first one was more of a gloating post, which was in bad taste. But no ones perfect, not me, not my president or his apponent, and not our country.

PS The part about getting inappropriate was in reguards to these so called Americans that want to move to Canada, because they are whinning over the way the election went. That will piss me off faster than just about anything else. But anyway, I am going to try and stay out of this thread untill the mods lock her down at the end of the weekend.

[Drift Machine]

And to my friends on the left. Keep getting more insane and radical! That way we can keep winning elections!

The winner of the douchebag award goes to....

CybeRise!!

[Jesda]

He's right though. The more shrill and pissed the left gets, the harder it is to win elections. John Edwards talked about hope, which was effective. Unfortunately, his idiotic allies were in the streets holding signs with swastikas and idiotic BUSH = HITLAR signs.

Unlike Kerry and Edwards, Clinton was able to keep the far left from acting up so he could focus on winning over the center and center-right.

Listen to James Carville.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Best thing I have heard all year.

Look guys, all jokig aside, Kerry lost and Bush won. That is the way it is. I don't care if you like him or not, he is still the President.

Why did we vote for Bush? 1. Kerry can't get the job done in the war on Terror.

Sounds like the republican's same old political rhetoric. Care to give some evidence as to why Kerry would be any more incompetent then the current administration? The fact is that airport security is still not secure, remember that guy who snuck fake bombs onto several planes to show the weaknesses of the security system. Then instead of taking note a fixing the problems they arrest the guy. Another fact is that Al-Queda recruitment has shot up since the begining of the Iraq war (see my above posts for more details). Ane then we left huge ammo dumps filled with high explosives ungaurded in the middle of a power vaccum. Please share what Kerry would do to top this level of incompetence.

2. Bush is for a fair tax rate. Equal for everyone. Just because a person is rich, doesn't mean they should pay a higher percentage on taxes. A higher amount yes, but not a higher percentage.

Those of us with a conscience would disagree. You don't see a problem with Johnny Millionaire inheriting a mansion and five yachts while Johnny My Dad is in Jail and my Mom is a Crackhead is working two jobs and trying to pay for his own college education? I agree that people who work hard should live a more comfortable life, but the gap between rich and poor in this country is ridiculous. Its not like miilionares were suffering before Bush gave them a tax break. This country is supposed to be about equal oppourtunitty. I know plenty of rich kids who are lazy and contribute nothing to this society, don't tell me its fair to tax them the same precentage as people who actually work for a living. I myself have had lots of good oppourtunities that many people I know don't, for that reason I feel indebted to them. Everyone should have the oppourtunity to succeed in life.

3. Economy: The employeement rate is at it's highest growth rate in over 30 years (cant remember the exact number of years). The tax breaks on us helps to boost teh economy. The tax cuts on the upper class promotes buisness growth. Most of the buisnesses in this country are the small buisness type. These are commonly filed under a personal incom tax return. You have to factor this stuff in. Many of the places where there are a large loss of jobs, such as here in my home state of North Carolina, those jobs were on the way out before 9-11-01. They were going, and are not coming back. People did not, and have not realized this is the change of a society. We are changing from a industrial based society to a service based society. The factories are a way of the past. Small buisness is the way of the future.

The trickle down theory is just that, a theory. Many people advocate a trickle up theory. Think of it this way, if Johnny Millionaire get a tax break, he might use that money to hire some more workers (assuming he even owns a business), or he might put it in a bank to add to his stash. If instead the money went to Johnny My Dad is in Jail, he would have to spend it and thus put it back in the economy, hes not going to open a CD with it. Small bussinesses can, and really should, file their taxes as a business. Heaven forbid they have to do a little more paperwork. This is the first president to have lost jobs during his term in a LONG TIME, despite the fact that he is fighting a war!! A war has always boosted the economy in the past...

4. Abortion: The only time I think it is right, is when the mothers life is in danger. But I do feel that my opinion is not valuable as a womans. I can not understand being pregnant, so I dont voice this opinion too much.

I respect your opinions on this matter, especially since you respect others'.

5. He is not a Democrate. They have a tendancy to reduce our millitary. Mr Clinton was the one that got us NAFTA. (Bush does need to take action on other trade acts, but Congress also has to assist or this).

All of the missle and fighter jets in the world would not have stopped 9/11. The Bush administration DID get intelligence saying the such an attack was planned and they did nothing to stop it. Are you aware that Bush said he beleives that anyone in the world should be allowed to come to america and work in jobs that no american is willing to take? This means if companies drop their wages enough so that no american wants to work there, the company can then import cheap foreign labor. Bush is not fiscally conservative and his is not conservative on labor/immigration issues.

6. Gay marriage: I don't mind civil unions, but marriage is between a man and a woman, and suppose to be "until death do us part", but must people have forgot that last part.

Who cares if they call it a union or a marriage. YOUR CHURCH does not have to recognize it. Besides they are going to burn in hell for all eternity, right? Why give them a hard time while they're on earth too?

7. Stem cell research: I agree this needs to be looked at. Not saying banned, because there is too much potential there.

I thought these were reasons you voted FOR Bush. He is seriously hindering the research on this subject. It not like researchers are killing babies to do the research, they're already dead.

8. The war in Iraq: Do I belive there were WMD there? Yes I do. Where did they go? Syria, is what I would figure. People tend to forget the French made missle's our troops found burried in the dessert (that was in violation of the sanctions) , and the stock pile of artillery rounds designed to deliver chemical agents. And not to mention the dump sites where those chemicals were poured out. Saddam needed to be removed from power really badly. Any man that would gas a whole city of people he didn't like (his own citizens) just to test his new chemical weapons needs to be dealt with.

Nobody is arguing that Sadam wan't a bad person. People are arguing that we went about it the wrong way. The means do not justify the ends. We put him in power in the first place because we wanted control of the natraul resources in the area. But now all of a sudden we are so concerned about freeing the people of Iraq. PLEASE READ A HISTORY BOOK. America has activley subverted and overthrown any democratically elected government whose policies hinder our imperialism. For example, in 1953 the CIA staged a coup to overthrow the democratically eleceted government in Iran. Since then a number of brutal dictators have come to power in Iran and thousands of innocent people have been killed. Who is it that really needs to be dealt with? This is one of many, many, examples of america totally screwing over another country in the name of money.

9. Trust: I trust Bush more than Kerry. I can never trust Kerry. My step dad was in Vietnam. Many of my friends in law enforcment were in Vietnam. They are honorable people. Good people, who didn't deserve the way the many in this country including John Kerry treated them when they came back from over there. Faced with protest led by this man. A man who writes a book, with a picture of the American flag turned up side down on the cover. Please, you ask why I would vote for Bush, I ask why you would vote for John Kerry?

Protesting a war does not mean that you don't support the troops, it means that you don't support the war. Protestors who do hate the soldiers are idiots. I have friends in the millitary, and while I don't agree with the war I know that it wasn't they're decision.

Like I said before, if the Democrates wanted to win this election, they should have went with John McCain. That man is truely respetable, and honorable. A true, 100% war hero. And man that has integrity, and common scense, which is rare in D.C. They would have taken thier parties votes, and half of the Republicans. He would have done us a fine job. As good as President Bush? I don't know. But under these stressfull times it is hard to say.

Anyway, that is enough of my position for now.

John McCain is a republican, albeit a liberal one. I'm not sure if he would have ran for the democratic party even if they asked. He was running in the republican primaries wasn't he? If he had one as a republican I would feel much better about the situation. Anyway please respond and tell me why you disagree with what I said above.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Okay dude, I did a post on like page eight or nine and articullated everything I felt about this. Go back and do some reading. I am not one of your uninformed masses. Just because I am republican dont mean jack, I vote on the issues and the canidates. I was a democrate until I got more involved in the issues, and relized that my belifes are more in line with the way the republicans represent there views. Matter of fact, I am the only republican in my family. Also, I work for the government (local), and it pays to know what is going on, on the local, state, and federal levels.

But I have had my fill of this debate. My side won. Not saying GW is the best man to lead this country, but in my opinion, John Kerry is deffinetly the wrong man. You want to know why, go back and read my other posts in this thread. I will give you the first one was more of a gloating post, which was in bad taste. But no ones perfect, not me, not my president or his apponent, and not our country.

PS The part about getting inappropriate was in reguards to these so called Americans that want to move to Canada, because they are whinning over the way the election went. That will piss me off faster than just about anything else. But anyway, I am going to try and stay out of this thread untill the mods lock her down at the end of the weekend.

Whats the point of returning to this thread after it's locked? Please respond to what I said above, I responded to your post. Oh yeah and I'm one of those "so called americans that wants to move to Canada." (see above) But I don't think I'm whining. I want to know why Bush won.

[The Mic]

if anyone wants to use this in their sig, they are free to do so!
Modified by S13GUY at 6:37 PM 11/7/2004

[StrangeLove]

dreamsOfSkylines, thanks for summing it up so well.

This past year my mom got a $600 dollar tax break, yay! BUT WAIT! she had to pay $800 more in NEW state taxes! Where did the new taxes come from? new tax plans from republicans...

Ben Affleck saved 2 million in saves, and my family had to pay more...

OH ya, my grandmother is paying much more for her perscriptions than ever, thanks to bush's plan for perscription drugs!

[Jesda]

Ideally, the government wouldnt have "plans" for everything. Damn FDR.

[StrangeLove]

damn him for getting us out of the great depression...

[CybeRise]

The winner of the douchebag award goes to....

CybeRise!!

PHEEEEEEEW for a second there I thought you libs had learned hate gets you nowhere! Glad to see your still as hateful as ever!

Maybe Daschle can come run in cali so you have some hope left!

Oh hey did any of you catch bill mahr? lol dude looked like he wanted to cry!And he had 3 libs on of course. But 1 of the 3 made sense and actualy got it. Hate will never win elections. Bill called him an idiot and went on making fun of jesus freaks and bush yay keep up the good work!

[The Mic]

Oh hey did any of you catch bill mahr? lol dude looked like he wanted to cry! And he had 3 libs on of course. But 1 of the 3 made sense and actualy got it. Hate will never win elections. Bill called him an idiot and went on making fun of jesus freaks and bush yay keep up the good work!

He didn't call Sullivan an idiot.

Btw, Andrew Sullivan is a Die-hard GOP conservative, not a liberal. He's gay, but certainly not a liberal
Modified by S13GUY at 9:02 PM 11/7/2004

[Nathan]

He didn't call Sullivan an idiot.

Btw, Andrew Sullivan is a Die-hard GOP conservative, not a liberal. He's gay, but certainly not a liberal

Modified by S13GUY at 9:02 PM 11/7/2004

Oh...so....easy....must...remain....above....childish....joke....