The Official Election Thread

[driverdriver]

dreamsOfSkylines wrote:

"People in other countries do not hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because of our imperialism. "------------------------------------------------------------

True, In my business travels post the Iraq "war", People assume I'm American, till I tell them otherwise. After that there is generally a comment that goes something like "American's are (insert expletive)." A couple of American colleagues of mine identify themeselves as Canadian when they travel, they are tired of the contempt they feel when they travel abroad. With the debacle in Iraq, the US has lost its moral authority in the world. The hard truth is that nothing the U.S. says is believed outside the U.S. Should the U.S. get hit by another catastrophic terrorlst attack like 9/11 (God forbid), there will be little sympathy in the world. Rather there will be a feeling that the U.S. brought it upon themselves.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Good last sentence. The rest is a joke

PLEASE ACTUALLY ARGUE THESE POINTS. I'm sick of people dismissing opposing ideas without THINKING and then RESPONDING to the POINTS that were made. I didn't just watch Farenheit 911 and decide I know everything. I try to read opinions from both sides of any issue and make my own judgements.

[Jesda]

Canada is a beautiful country with friendly people; I hope you enjoy it. If you leave, thats one less Democratic voter for me to worry about (nothing beats self-disenfranchisement!). If you need help packing, I'll pitch in to help. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

[The Mic]

I'm sick and tired of American patriots saying "Well I'm moving to Canada" or wherever. You know what, if you really think you're right and they're wrong, Real Americans stay to help improve our country. Besides, which ever country your fleeing to, there's a good chance we're going to invade that next

[JESTER]

Okay, let me make a motion that we hang this thread up.

We just need to agree to disagree.........

[themadscientist]

my fellow mods are watching it. My take is , people want to talk about this subject so if this one is locked up people will keep trying to sneak threads in. Both sides of this can get downright nasty though so everybody try to be civil when amking your points. Sean connery was the best James Bond though.

[Jesda]

PLEASE ACTUALLY ARGUE THESE POINTS. I'm sick of peo...

You said you were leaving. Removing your own influence as a voter is a lot easier than me changing your mind.

I earned some CapitalOne miles if you need a flight discount.

[JESTER]

my fellow mods are watching it. My take is , people want to talk about this subject so if this one is locked up people will keep trying to sneak threads in. Both sides of this can get downright nasty though so everybody try to be civil when amking your points. Sean connery was the best James Bond though.

Yeah, I am fairly strong opinionated my self. And I had another post typed up, but, I felt it was not appropriate. I can get carried away with a good debate, but politics is not a good debate, because you just cant sway the other side, and they cant sway you.

And I do agree with you, Sean Connery was the best Bond, but he was pretty much the best period, except for John Wayne. No one was better than the Duke.

[themadscientist]

PLEASE ACTUALLY ARGUE THESE POINTS. I'm sick of people dismissing opposing ideas without THINKING and then RESPONDING to the POINTS that were made. I didn't just watch Farenheit 911 and decide I know everything. I try to read opinions from both sides of any issue and make my own judgements.

Ok at the risk of firing me up, I like Bush for the following reasons

He means what he says and he does his best to accomplish his goals.He is in possession of a backbone and a clearly defined set of morals.He is imperfect and does not try to hide it like a standard politician.He has class.

The american political scene has been dominated by pandering two-faced gutless scumbags who would do ANYTHING to stay in power while they let the world collapse. Bush is not perfect, he is human and he makes mistakes I doubt any of us could sit in judgement of the man nor walk a mile in his shoes. I do not agree with everything he beleives but the fact that he says unequivocally what he beleives and what he will shoot for is refreshing after 8 years of Bill Clinton. People will tolerate a lot as long as they are doing ok. Those days are over, the wold is a dangerous place and contrary to what many politicians on both sides of the coin think you cannot negotiate with people who want to kill you. The world did start hating America in 2000, the people who would attack America have always wanted to and always will. We need a president that is willing to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING! This is not a schoolyard bully, this is life or death and we are past talking. The fanatics of the world have been emboldened by the paper tiger of the Clinton era and they are learning to fear Ameriica again. They would like to kill Michael Moore as much as George Bush and the on;y way to keep a man from killing you is to kill him first. The world is not going to get any safer, in fact I foresee greater pain and suffering ahead, don`t delude yourself it was coming anyway sides have been taken and America did not pick the fight but we will win it. The only way to win is with a strong leader and George W, freakin Bush is strong. The Democrats pulled out all the stops and did everything they could to include creating false documents, making politically slanted movies the works all backed by big George Soros money and the help of the Liberal medai. For all that the Republicans and Geoge Bush won. He won because enough people understand that there is evil in the world and the way to deal with it is the call it out and destroy it.

[themadscientist]

And I do agree with you, Sean Connery was the best Bond, but he was pretty much the best period, except for John Wayne. No one was better than the Duke.

I hear they are going to tap Colin Ferrel for the role now that Peirce Brosnan is on the way out, I liked Peirce though, I rank him #2.

John Wayne, when did he play James Bond?

[JESTER]

No no, dude, he was just the best actor. Sean Connery was number 2, number one for Bond, but two for acting.

Ewing Mcgregor would have been my choice over Colin Ferrel.

EDIT: at work, and had to take and dispatch a medical call on 911. Messed up my train of thought

Anyway, Colin Ferrel would make a good bad guy for the Bond flicks.

[Jesda]

http://travel.state.gov/law/renunciation.html

[jEzTeR]

This thread will be closed by the end of the weekend!

We do feel that it is an important subject to talk about but not dwell on.

Thanks for the opinions and facts that were posted by everyone.

[Sopdadope]

HA HA HA..........All you moron Dems and your gay celeberties couldnt turn the election.

Look at your party, its in total chaos. You are the Minority in this country and you need to re-evaluate yourselves and your values.

Only thing Im mad about is that my state went for Kerry, by 12,000 votes. I suppose its to be expected, since Madison is the most Liberal city in the country.

Once again.............HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your charming, eloquent, mind-shatteringly insightful, clear-eyed response. I sleep like a baby knowing there are compassionate souls like you out there.

[fluidmotion]

wow, that's really odd how the first 9 are all really voted for kerry.

I mean.... I figure, it would still be fairly evenly distributed because the race is so close. Quite amazing.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Canada is a beautiful country with friendly people; I hope you enjoy it. If you leave, thats one less Democratic voter for me to worry about (nothing beats self-disenfranchisement!). If you need help packing, I'll pitch in to help. Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

I've read almost all 10 pages of this thread and so far you have contributed nothing but snide remarks. Get off your high horse and argue your convictions or just stay out of it.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

I'm sick and tired of American patriots saying "Well I'm moving to Canada" or wherever. You know what, if you really think you're right and they're wrong, Real Americans stay to help improve our country. Besides, which ever country your fleeing to, there's a good chance we're going to invade that next

I never claimed to be a "real american". I was raised in Scotland, my dad was raised in Ireland, and my mom was raised in Holland. I still consider myself an american, its just that I've lost all hope in middle america. I mean this is one of the only countries in the world where people are still trying to argue against evolution.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

You said you were leaving. Removing your own influence as a voter is a lot easier than me changing your mind.

I earned some CapitalOne miles if you need a flight discount.

Nice cop out. So far TMS is the only one to actually articulate his feelings on the subjest.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Yeah, I am fairly strong opinionated my self. And I had another post typed up, but, I felt it was not appropriate. I can get carried away with a good debate, but politics is not a good debate, because you just cant sway the other side, and they cant sway you.

And I do agree with you, Sean Connery was the best Bond, but he was pretty much the best period, except for John Wayne. No one was better than the Duke.

The problem with this country are people who disagree with what I said because the are Republican. You should be republican because you disagree with what I said, and you should be able to argue your convictions in a civilized manner. There is nothing inappropriate about voicing your beleifs.

[Jesda]

I've read almost all 10 pages of this thread and so far you have contributed nothing but snide remarks. Get off your high horse and argue your convictions or just stay out of it.

You honestly believe that by offering to leave, youre going to get someone to stop you? Is that like, a threat? If youre willing to stay I'm willing to discuss the issue with you. Otherwise, I dont see much of a point in investing my time and energy. Not all countries are a good fit for all people.
Modified by Jesda at 1:10 PM 11/6/2004

[NY94J30]

I hate to weigh into political threads, sometimes I give in to passion. The reason I don't weigh in is that though I have my beleifs, I recognize that they are that, and further, I understand the positions of the other side. This thread, however, was full of obnoxious posts and therefore tempted me to stoop that low - for that I appologize. I plan to delete my post as it adds nothing to the political debate - which incidentally isnt really happening.

Jesda, you are cleary very informed, yet alot of the inflamatory posts are coming from your direction, and inasmuch as you are clearly intelligent, you must recognize that your beliefs are just that: yours, and no amount of ad hominem or even doctrinal posts will change minds here as politics is a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe you'll follow suit. So, with that, I'm out. - Posts Deleted, and I hope this thread too, shortly -

[Jesda]

NY94J30: No hard feelings, my friend. I also apologize.

I've been all over the political spectrum as a former liberal Democrat, a Libertarian, a Republican, and a Libertarian/Republican (LP/RLC/GOP). The only ideologies I havent examined in terms of personal experience are full-scale authoritarianism or any variations of communism.

I see what the left is doing and am reminded of old myself years ago, so I'm prone to fly off the handle at times. I sometimes feel like I'm watching a train wreck in slow motion. The Democratic Party needs to quit complaining and take the advice of intelligent men like Bill Clinton and James Carville on how to move forward and win back the federal government. I may disagree with the two politically, but one cannot deny their keen strategic abilities.

Terry McAuliffe is the absolute worst and most ineffective chairman the DNC has had in decades.

I deleted my posts too.
Modified by Jesda at 1:16 PM 11/6/2004

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Ok at the risk of firing me up, I like Bush for the following reasons

He means what he says and he does his best to accomplish his goals.

If this is true, we are in trouble. Remember when he said that we can't win the war on terror? Then he backed out of it saying that he didn't articulate himself very well. Sounds more like a freudian slip to me.

He is in possession of a backbone and a clearly defined set of morals.

Last I checked every human being has a back bone. Please be more specific and actually explain what you mean rather than using the very political rhetoric you chastise politicians for using.

He is imperfect and does not try to hide it like a standard politician.

I don't dislike Bush because of the way he speaks. I don't dislike him as a person at all, because I don't know him as a person. I dislike his policies, which is why my arguments above all focused on his policies, not character assasinations. This isn't a popularity contest, this is deciding who should make the decisions for our entire nation.

He has class.

Class is such an abstract idea that I have no idea what your talking about, again you are using political rhetoric. Are you implying that Kerry doesn't have class? How do you define class? Is it your taste in food and wine, or the accent you speak with? Does any of this affect your ability to be president?

The american political scene has been dominated by pandering two-faced gutless scumbags who would do ANYTHING to stay in power while they let the world collapse.

I agree, please inform me how Bush is different.

Bush is not perfect, he is human and he makes mistakes I doubt any of us could sit in judgement of the man nor walk a mile in his shoes. I do not agree with everything he beleives but the fact that he says unequivocally what he beleives and what he will shoot for is refreshing after 8 years of Bill Clinton.

I can not judge him for the decisions he makes in his personal life, but every single american SHOULD judge him for what decisions he makes for this country. When a corporation goes under we look at the CEO's for answers. Even if they were not directly responsible for the corparations downfall, they are still held responsible because they are in a position of power. Its part of the job description. I find it interesting that you have no problem judging Clinton, and for mistakes he made in his personal life no less.

People will tolerate a lot as long as they are doing ok. Those days are over, the wold is a dangerous place and contrary to what many politicians on both sides of the coin think you cannot negotiate with people who want to kill you.

How is it any more dangerous than 10 or 20 years ago? The media and the government have a nasty habit of greatly inflating even the slightest threat to our safety. I agree that you can not negotiate with certain people. But you also can not wage a conventional war against "terrorism". Please read my initial post for why I feel this way.

The world did start hating America in 2000, the people who would attack America have always wanted to and always will.

For the love of this country, PLEASE read a history book. Preferably not the watered down highschool version. Have you heard of the Monroe Doctrine? Does the name Pinochet ring a bell? How about when we helped overthrow the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953. I could go on for days. Americans are just starting to realize how much people across the world resent us. Its easy to say that all that stuff is in the past, but HISTORY REPEATS.

We need a president that is willing to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING! This is not a schoolyard bully, this is life or death and we are past talking. The fanatics of the world have been emboldened by the paper tiger of the Clinton era and they are learning to fear Ameriica again.

I understand that alot of people feel that we should " DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING!", but I think there are several more intelligent routes to addressing the problem. No matter who was in the white house, we would have still invaded Afganistan, and rightfully so. But today we only control a few major cities in the whole country. We don't need other countries to fear us, we need them to repect and admire us. The koran says "To defeat evil with good is good, but to defeat evil with evil is evil." Did you read what I attached in my intitial post? These people are arguing the semantics over what constitutes "severe physical or mental pain." I agree that in the situation where we capture someone that we have good reason to beleive has information regarding an imminent threat, then we should use torture as a last resort to get this information. But these people are arguing that as long as the goal of the interogation is not to cause severe pain, but rather to get some information (any information at all) then it is not considered torture. These people are sick! This is why men in Abu Garib were being sodomized with florescent lights!

They would like to kill Michael Moore as much as George Bush and the only way to keep a man from killing you is to kill him first.

How about not giving him a reason to kill you in the first place?

The world is not going to get any safer, in fact I foresee greater pain and suffering ahead, don`t delude yourself it was coming anyway sides have been taken and America did not pick the fight but we will win it.

The reason why things are getting worse is because we are making the situation worse. It is a fact that Al-Queda recruitment has skyrocketed since the start of the Iraq war. We created a total power vaccum which allows terrorists to thrive. We left huge caches of weapons open to the public. And most importantly we have shown the Iraqi people no tangible benefit what so ever.

The only way to win is with a strong leader and George W, freakin Bush is strong.

Again, more political rhetoric. What makes Bush so strong, and what makes Kerry so weak? Last I checked Kerry did go to Vietnam while Bush got to go in the National Guard because his Dad is a powerful man. Heaven forbid Kerry then spoke out against the single biggest mistake America has ever made. And no, protesting the war does not mean you don't support the troops, it means you don't support the war. What better way to support troops then to get them out of harms way?

The Democrats pulled out all the stops and did everything they could to include creating false documents, making politically slanted movies the works all backed by big George Soros money and the help of the Liberal meda. For all that the Republicans and Geoge Bush won.

Sadly, both sides did sling a lot of mud. Americans need to look past all of the charater attacks and try to focus on the candidates policies. If you are voting on a gut feeling, then don't vote. People need to try to educate themselves on the issues. I'm well aware of the various deceptions Michael Moore presents as facts in his movies. This is because I took the time to read various opososing views rather than swallowing everything that I am spoon fed. The same goes for getting all your info from CNN or Faux News.

He won because enough people understand that there is evil in the world and the way to deal with it is the call it out and destroy it.

Read my initial post for the various reasons I think that we are going about this the wrong way. If you disagree then tell my why. I appreciate you actually participating in the discourse, please continue to do so.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

This thread will be closed by the end of the weekend!

We do feel that it is an important subject to talk about but not dwell on.

Thanks for the opinions and facts that were posted by everyone.

Its just one thread in the General Forum. Its not like we're posting in the Forced Induction Forum. Politics are not just important once every four years. People can (and many do) ignore this thread. As long as we keep it civilized whats the harm in letting us continue this debate until we grow tired of it?

[JustinStrife]

Good last sentence. The rest is a joke

Agreed.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

You honestly believe that by offering to leave, youre going to get someone to stop you? Is that like, a threat? If youre willing to stay I'm willing to discuss the issue with you. Otherwise, I dont see much of a point in investing my time and energy. Not all countries are a good fit for all people.Modified by Jesda at 1:10 PM 11/6/2004

Its not a threat, its a fact. I'm going to go to graduate school in Vancouver (costs much less money). The decision was made before the election. Why does me moving to Canda make my views unworthy of your response? People outside of america have valid opinions too.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

Agreed.

Again, thanks for contributing to the converstion.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

I hate to weigh into political threads, sometimes I give in to passion. The reason I don't weigh in is that though I have my beleifs, I recognize that they are that, and further, I understand the positions of the other side. This thread, however, was full of obnoxious posts and therefore tempted me to stoop that low - for that I appologize. I plan to delete my post as it adds nothing to the political debate - which incidentally isnt really happening.

Jesda, you are cleary very informed, yet alot of the inflamatory posts are coming from your direction, and inasmuch as you are clearly intelligent, you must recognize that your beliefs are just that: yours, and no amount of ad hominem or even doctrinal posts will change minds here as politics is a matter of personal philosophy. Maybe you'll follow suit. So, with that, I'm out. - Posts Deleted, and I hope this thread too, shortly -

Have you never altered your personal philsophy? People should constantly question and debate their personal philosophies, its what makes us who we are. People act like it is a crime to change your stance on a subject, which only premotes closed-mindedness. Call me a flip-flopper if you like.

[gabossie]

I've been all over the political spectrum as a former liberal Democrat, a Libertarian, a Republican, and a Libertarian/Republican (LP/RLC/GOP)

FLIP FLOPPER!!!

Heh, sorry, you know I couldn't resist I carry no ill feelings toward anyone in here, this is just a voicing of political opinions, which everyone is of course entitled to. The only thing in here at all that gets me upset, is when people resort to personal insults, which simply have no place here and do nothing but insult the intelligence of the person speaking. I assume this thread will be locked soon, although I hope not deleted. It does have SOME good stuff, and is worth a read for anyone else who feels the need to post a political thread up here. Exposure to others beliefs is a good thing, it's how thought evolves.

[Drift Machine]

My folks are millionaires and came to the US dead-flat-broke.

Get off your pasty *** and work.

Hehe. I'm not trying to insult you here so don't get the wrong idea. I just think it's funny that we come from very wealthy families and have different ideals. My dad makes decisions everyday at work that has more of an effect on the world economy then anyone on here could probably hope for. Yet he's kinda liberal, he's democrat but I don't consider them liberals just more so then republicans. I dunno just kind of funny how you can't always classify people into one category based upon their income.