The Official Election Thread

[s13sr20chris]

top ten elecion issues on nico

1)how can the govt(big brother or maybe even mommy) take care of me personally?

2)what unconstituional thing has each candidate offered to do that i like?

3)what have the talking heads(from rush limbaugh to mtv) on both sides said about each candidate?

4)well you get the drift.

i voted constitutional party because the compromise party(with separate warring factions known as republican and democrat) is running away from the constitution and the principles it was built upon as fast as it can.

i voted republican for my district house seat as the only challenger was a greenie weenie.

i am very happy that bush won(since my guy did not really have a chance). he is correct on some of the most important issues. he opposes homosexuals(i try to avoid the word gay as it has been stolen and stripped of its true meaning), he did even out the taxes a little even if the income based taxation system is just plain stupid, he opposes stem cell research, he opposes abortion(which is unconstitutional according to the 14th ammendment, but dont tell the supreme court to stop legislating), etc.

i dont like bushs more socialistic leanings such as prescription drug plan, no child left behind, patriot act, etc.

why oh why must the govt run EVERYTHING? why are we so liberal that we give up our liberty and beg the govt nurse us to death?

/rant

[s13sr20chris]

you bring me to another thought. why must we try to fix everything? i think it is secular humanism come home to roost. people try to play god and level the playing field. what do you get when you attempt to circumvent the Lord and his will? a mess

personally i kind of wish that kerry would have won and more people would have voted constitutionaly. that way the republican party would realize its time to get conservative again.

[NY94J30]

abortion(which is unconstitutional according to the 14th ammendment, but dont tell the supreme court to stop legislating), etc.

How is abortion unconstitutional under the 14th A? You mean protected under the 9th and 14th?

[StrangeLove]

The sig stays, its meant to disrepect bush, I'm still upset about the year 2000 election among other things (iraq, wealthly and poverty gap, etc)

[JustinStrife]

The main reason why bush won the presidency, according to the polls, is because of moral values. The only reason why people think bush has more moral values than kerry is that people who are conservative generally are considered to have more moral values. But is this true? Is a liberal person less moral than a conservative? I think in the end, both the candidates should have been equal in moral value, but because of the stereotype, people believe that bush should be more moral.

So basically, Bush won not on any issues, local or foreign, but just because of the stereotype.

For the war in iraq, in some ways I would blame bush, but in some ways I don’t. After 9-11, I think that the US needed to blame someone and maybe the US had some side motivations for attacking iraq specifically instead of other countries (oil), but just the fact that someone needed to take the blame, iraq just happened to be the one that did. Everything is always about the mob mentality, if everyone wants to see something happen, or blame someone, someone has to take the fall. But, on the other hand, you would think that the president of the United States of all people would be able to control himself and wait until ALL the right information is correct before starting a war.

This is where I support kerry, because kerry is a man who didn’t just hide behind his father. When bush served in the military, I’m sure he had his father pull some strings in which he could get an easy job as a paper pusher. Bush never saw anything even close to war, while Kerry would be more hesitant because he actually served in a war.

But on the issue of war, I think bush should still be in office to just finish what he started, even though he did a bad job throughout the first part, changing plans in the middle of a war may cause even more chaos.

In the end, I voted for kerry because I think the United States deserves some change. Bush has cause so many problems, including violation of people’s civil rights. The US should learn from its mistakes in the past of violating people’s civil rights (Japanese internment camps and etc) and not continually break people’s civil rights.

I’ve read some of the posts, and I just think that some of them are very narrow minded.

It is true that in America you can become whatever you want, but to what degree do some people have it easier than others? Obviously it is not anyone’s fault for being born into a richer family, but you should at least help the others to gain the same opportunities or try to even the playing field a little bit.

If you consider someone who lives in the projects, they are surrounded by drugs and violence. How do you possibly expect someone to succeed in those conditions. Again, if you want to succeed, you obviously need to at least have the necessities of life, and many people don’t even know where their next meal is coming from, and you expect them to go to college and have all these aspirations? If I was that poor, my first concern would be where I’m going to sleep next, when I’m going to get my next meal, etc. There are just so many different factors that may effect different people that you can not account for all of them. You can’t expect it to be so black and white, that as long as people try, they can succeed.

Besides all of that, the issues should be someone’s main concern. A lot of them really are just based upon opinion though.

It seems to me that the biggest arguments on this forum is generalizing democrats and republicans. In the end, once a president is in office, they must be quite moderate. So in the end, the concern for democrat or republican isn’t that big of a deal, because the president must stay moderate.

Personally, I have it fairly easy, but I work very hard still. I am going to the University of Minnesota full time and my major is Electrical Engineering, and I work more than full time right now. I pay for all my own expenses. Not because my parents aren’t well off, but because I choose to pay for my own stuff. Both my parents are college graduates, one with their doctorate, and the other with their masters. We all chose to vote for kerry, because we thought that the United States deserved a change.

Sorry, tons of grammar errors, not a lot of time to write it, heh. wrote it very informally. and sorry, it's probably very disorganized.

I'll give you an example where you are wrong in an area. When talking about how people in the project areas are surrounded by drugs and crime and are unable to escape their situation, you are neglecting the possibility of them still being able to decide on their own that they don't want to follow that path. My friend Buddy, is a prime example. He lived in a Welfare home. His mom had 5 kids altogether. Each one to different fathers. She might have been married once. MAYBE. She did drugs, she drank, she was off with her boyfriends while he came home from school and took care of his siblings. It took him another semester to graduate High School, but he did it. True he hasn't gone to college, but he's been working full time. He's got a girlfriend he's stuck with for the past 7 years(since senior year for crying out loud), and he's doing well for himself. Meanwhile his siblings are all in seperate homes now as they were taken away from the mother when buddy moved out and are adjusting to the changes before them. People can improve their lives if they want to. But they have to want to.

As for Bush getting favors from his dad while he was in the National Guard. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You and i don't know that. The fact is, he still served, was a fighter pilot(which the average person can't do), while Clinton ran off to Canada. And for Kerry's service in Vietnam, he dishonored that service by his actions once he returned to the states. As my dad was a 2 tour Vietnam Veteran, can vouch for, Kerry turned his back on the soldiers he served with. That is NOT commander in chief material.

[StrangeLove]

uhhh Kerry made sure he served his country and did his duty before protesting. He did his part as a citizen, the same can't be said for Mr. AWOL....

As for your story: like you said, the person has to want to change and better themselves... the thing is, they don't want to, they don't know any better. That the culture, and how they were raised

[MaineExport]

You need to take a step back and try to empathize with people. Instead of automatically blaming someone for problems in their life put yourself in their shoes. What would you do if you got your girlfriend pregnant at 16? You may think you have the awnsers but you don't. People have to deal with situations like that every day. Situations like that lead to an inability to afford healthcare, not lazyness or appathy. .

So you feel society should pay for your poor planning? You can't be saying that I should have to pay for the fact that you were selfish enough to screw without a rubber.

I don't think it should be the government's responsibility to pay for your mistakes.

[The Mic]

The fact is, he still served, was a fighter pilot(which the average person can't do),

yeah you're right, the average person can't do it.

while Clinton ran off to Canada.

really? show my some documented proof of that please. I thought he was in London making out with O'reilly

[gabossie]

I agree with alot of this (SHOCK!). I'm very liberal, but I'm also very much a believer in a survival of the fittest sort of philosophy. All the tools that anyone needs to succeed at leat to a moderate, comfortable level are there in a capitalist system, it's the desire to use them that somepeople lack. Yes, it is more difficult for some people, but that's just how it is, and always will be. The govt really has no place in taking care of all of us, I'll take care of myself, and would prefer to keep the money that I make, that is being used to take care of others. When I want to take care of others, I volunteer or donate to charities, and that's my choice to spend my time and or money that way.

Please, stop generalizing about libs and democrats in such a demeaning manner. If for no one else, but yourself. I don't do it to you. I can ignore the occasional ignorant poster, but when trying to discuss things with those of you that I believe are intelligent, and simply have different views that myself, it really makes it hard to respect you or what you're saying when you finish your post w/ some ignorant stereotypical insult.

[Jesda]

The Libertarian Party:http://www.lp.org/

[90Q45blue]

pills, unless you're not in the US, Bush is YOUR president, whether you like it or not.

Do we really have to bash either candidate now? What this country needs is for people to move on and move toward working together to better this country. Bush won. Kerry lost. No amount of bickering, complaining, threats, hateful comments and witticisims will change that.

Nick

[MinisterofDOOM]

The important thing in my mind now is for everyone to realize that It is over and Bush is in charge for 4 years. We need to make sure the country is unified as much as possible so that we can get things accomplished. The people of the country have spoken. Relax and take a few cleansing breaths.

My take on the whole thing is that the majority of the country just did not feel that Kerry was going to lead the country in the right manner. There were a bunch of people that I talked to who hate Bush but would still not vote Kerry because he doesn't stand for anything. They said that he seamed to change his stand depending on how the situation was going to effect him.

The other issues were just not enough to make the difference.

I hope that we can all move past this and get along.

Thank you jEsTeR!!! That is perhaps the single most intelligent political-related comment I have seen here on NICO.

Whining is going to solve NOTHING! Why keep bitching about something that is over and done with? Why not just face facts and deal with it. Honestly, there has yet to be a presidential election with major candidates that I have felt entirely comfortable with.What I AM comfortable with is the fact that the man who is now the leader of our nation was CHOSEN by the votes that we, as people, made. As much as Kerry-supporters may feel that Bush is being imposed upon us (I voted for Kerry myself) you have to realize, he WAS elected, he DID get the most votes, and that is not imposition. If your man had won, you would be saying the same thing I am as defense from the Bush guys saying that Kerry was imposed...

The important issue is that we need to make our coutry work. This CAN NOT happen if we are too busy bickering over the election for the next 4 years. There is no effective, efficient way to fight an election. What is done is done, Bush is in, and as citizens we have an obligation to make our government run as effectively as possible. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, and nothing wrong with voicing that opinion. Just don't let it stop you from fulfilling your duties as a citizen of the United States of America.

/opinion

[gabossie]

Well Said

[Jesda]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...&rd=1

[MinisterofDOOM]

HahaHA! That is great!

[Jesda]

Another reason why Kerry lost, is because gay marriage became a central part of the Democratic agenda. No, it wasn't a central part of Kerry's platform, but this election year was used to promote gay marriage nationwide.

I agree with gay marriage, but pushing a morally sensitive issue the same year youre attempting to win over the center is unwise and strategically dim. The Democrats ended up losing Iowa and other states where socially conservative economic liberals who feel uncertain about the war would have been valuable.

2006 would have been a better year for gay marriage. Unfortunately, they screwed up, got impatient, and crammed it into 2004. It seems like its doomed for good.

-Jesda

[Cold_Zero]

Every State where it was a reforendum, the Definition of a Marriage vote passed. It was definatly an issue that got people to get out and vote.

I think it was Winston Churchill that said, "If you are young and you are not a Liberial, you dont have a heart. If you are older and you are not conservative, you dont have a brain."

[JESTER]

unbelivable.

california seceding from the union. let all the half wits east of california do whatever they want.

Best thing I have heard all year.

Look guys, all jokig aside, Kerry lost and Bush won. That is the way it is. I don't care if you like him or not, he is still the President.

Why did we vote for Bush? 1. Kerry can't get the job done in the war on Terror. 2. Bush is for a fair tax rate. Equal for everyone. Just because a person is rich, doesn't mean they should pay a higher percentage on taxes. A higher amount yes, but not a higher percentage. 3. Economy: The employeement rate is at it's highest growth rate in over 30 years (cant remember the exact number of years). The tax breaks on us helps to boost teh economy. The tax cuts on the upper class promotes buisness growth. Most of the buisnesses in this country are the small buisness type. These are commonly filed under a personal incom tax return. You have to factor this stuff in. Many of the places where there are a large loss of jobs, such as here in my home state of North Carolina, those jobs were on the way out before 9-11-01. They were going, and are not coming back. People did not, and have not realized this is the change of a society. We are changing from a industrial based society to a service based society. The factories are a way of the past. Small buisness is the way of the future. 4. Abortion: The only time I think it is right, is when the mothers life is in danger. But I do feel that my opinion is not valuable as a womans. I can not understand being pregnant, so I dont voice this opinion too much. 5. He is not a Democrate. They have a tendancy to reduce our millitary. Mr Clinton was the one that got us NAFTA. (Bush does need to take action on other trade acts, but Congress also has to assist or this). 6. Gay marriage: I don't mind civil unions, but marriage is between a man and a woman, and suppose to be "until death do us part", but must people have forgot that last part.7. Stem cell research: I agree this needs to be looked at. Not saying banned, because there is too much potential there. 8. The war in Iraq: Do I belive there were WMD there? Yes I do. Where did they go? Syria, is what I would figure. People tend to forget the French made missle's our troops found burried in the dessert (that was in violation of the sanctions) , and the stock pile of artillery rounds designed to deliver chemical agents. And not to mention the dump sites where those chemicals were poured out. Saddam needed to be removed from power really badly. Any man that would gas a whole city of people he didn't like (his own citizens) just to test his new chemical weapons needs to be dealt with. 9. Trust: I trust Bush more than Kerry. I can never trust Kerry. My step dad was in Vietnam. Many of my friends in law enforcment were in Vietnam. They are honorable people. Good people, who didn't deserve the way the many in this country including John Kerry treated them when they came back from over there. Faced with protest led by this man. A man who writes a book, with a picture of the American flag turned up side down on the cover. Please, you ask why I would vote for Bush, I ask why you would vote for John Kerry?

Like I said before, if the Democrates wanted to win this election, they should have went with John McCain. That man is truely respetable, and honorable. A true, 100% war hero. And man that has integrity, and common scense, which is rare in D.C. They would have taken thier parties votes, and half of the Republicans. He would have done us a fine job. As good as President Bush? I don't know. But under these stressfull times it is hard to say.

Anyway, that is enough of my position for now.

[s13sr20chris]

How is abortion unconstitutional under the 14th A? You mean protected under the 9th and 14th?

really, i know a smart political guy like you has a copy. its the part about no person having their life taken without a trial(paraphrase) and yes i believe you are right on the 9th. forgot that one. but hey, if one amendmant isnt good enough for those nutty justices then two wont either.

[s13sr20chris]

I agree with alot of this (SHOCK!). I'm very liberal, but I'm also very much a believer in a survival of the fittest sort of philosophy. All the tools that anyone needs to succeed at leat to a moderate, comfortable level are there in a capitalist system, it's the desire to use them that somepeople lack. Yes, it is more difficult for some people, but that's just how it is, and always will be. The govt really has no place in taking care of all of us, I'll take care of myself, and would prefer to keep the money that I make, that is being used to take care of others. When I want to take care of others, I volunteer or donate to charities, and that's my choice to spend my time and or money that way.

Please, stop generalizing about libs and democrats in such a demeaning manner. If for no one else, but yourself. I don't do it to you. I can ignore the occasional ignorant poster, but when trying to discuss things with those of you that I believe are intelligent, and simply have different views that myself, it really makes it hard to respect you or what you're saying when you finish your post w/ some ignorant stereotypical insult.

you my friend are quite right. "The Lord loves a cheerfull giver." if you give charitably of your free will that is admirable. if the govt takes your money by force and redistributes it, that is not.

i reread my own posts and dont find them to be offensive. if you meant that towards me please let me know as i am not trying to be a jerk but people tell me i can be one at times.

[Jesda]

Oh crap! The A-word! I'm am SO ditching this thread.

[MinisterofDOOM]

What? "Amendment"?

[Nexus9]

what the rest of the world thinks

http://217.160.163.211/globalvote2004/

[Jesda]

Actually I was referring to the A-word that ends with "ortion".

[Drift Machine]

you bring me to another thought. why must we try to fix everything? i think it is secular humanism come home to roost. people try to play god and level the playing field. what do you get when you attempt to circumvent the Lord and his will?

Oh boy.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Actually I was referring to the A-word that ends with "ortion".

Oh....THAT "A" word. I see what you mean. Things could get ugly...

[Drift Machine]

what the rest of the world thinks

http://217.160.163.211/globalvote2004/

Yesterday several of my friends made comments about how could people over in America want to re-elect W. And went off about how Bush has no morales, unless you consider the killing of innocent people a good thing.

[fluidmotion]

I'll give you an example where you are wrong in an area. When talking about how people in the project areas are surrounded by drugs and crime and are unable to escape their situation, you are neglecting the possibility of them still being able to decide on their own that they don't want to follow that path. My friend Buddy, is a prime example. He lived in a Welfare home. His mom had 5 kids altogether. Each one to different fathers. She might have been married once. MAYBE. She did drugs, she drank, she was off with her boyfriends while he came home from school and took care of his siblings. It took him another semester to graduate High School, but he did it. True he hasn't gone to college, but he's been working full time. He's got a girlfriend he's stuck with for the past 7 years(since senior year for crying out loud), and he's doing well for himself. Meanwhile his siblings are all in seperate homes now as they were taken away from the mother when buddy moved out and are adjusting to the changes before them. People can improve their lives if they want to. But they have to want to.

As for Bush getting favors from his dad while he was in the National Guard. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. You and i don't know that. The fact is, he still served, was a fighter pilot(which the average person can't do), while Clinton ran off to Canada. And for Kerry's service in Vietnam, he dishonored that service by his actions once he returned to the states. As my dad was a 2 tour Vietnam Veteran, can vouch for, Kerry turned his back on the soldiers he served with. That is NOT commander in chief material.

mmm, my point was more that, with some sort of programs, you could at least help even the playing field and take such a large burden off disadvantaged people. Don't other people deserve that much? I mean, I don't support giving out money to people who don't deserve it, but there are plenty of people who work hard and try hard, and will never get out of the hole their in. I think that evening the playing field out a little bit could be beneficial to those people.

But anyway, I also agree, since he's already won the election, people should just accept that. I really believe both the choices sucked, but one of them was going to be elected, and since they both sucked, it's not too big of a deal which one is elected, heh.

[Radian]

So you feel society should pay for your poor planning? You can't be saying that I should have to pay for the fact that you were selfish enough to screw without a rubber.

I don't think it should be the government's responsibility to pay for your mistakes.

You and Nathan both totally missed the point on that. I was using teen pregnancy as an example of something bad that happened beyond their control. Lets say that in this hypothetical situation they were using a condom and it broke...

Let's not say anything more about that actually, that isn't the point. The point is the same that Fluidmotion is making - the playing field isn't level. While you might be able to make a great life with healthcare and expensive cars by working hard, many people work far harder than you for far less. The point I was trying to make is similar to what fluidmotion was getting at with his first post. People in marginalized communities do not have the mindset that you have. Not too long ago I spent some time in El Salvador with marginalized (very poor) communites. They were organized into community groups, pooled their resources and educated themselves. As a result they got running water. They still live in tin shacks with dirt floors and work all day in fields to grow corn to eat. This is a different country but the mind set is the same for marginalized people everywhere. The people in this comunity did not think into the future, they don't have that luxury. They need to be concerned with finding food, washing their clothes by hand, finding a way to pay for the water pump. If they didn't think about those things they would die. The thought "Ya know, I could get a loan, go to college for four years, graduate, get a good job and repay the loan" would never occur to them.You may say "It is their own fault for not planning ahead" but you say that because you don't understand what it is like to be in their situation. If you were there you would understand what an enormous difference a little government aid could make. To get that aid the government might need to *gasp* increase taxes. That means you might have to give up that weekly candybar and can of soda. I would be more than willing to make that "sacrifice". I refuse to turn my back on people that need my help. I refuse to put the blinders on and opt out with the easy awnser ("they did it to themselves"). We are all members of the same species. We all live on the same planet (same country?). Giving people the tools they need to help themselves not only elevates them, it elevates us. The system needs to change. Everyone on this board is a part of the system, and 99% of us are at the top of the pyramid. We sit at it's point holding our cars, TVs, computers, clothes, houses. That weight is supported by thousands of poor people who are kept at the base of the pyramid so we can remain at it's peak. They are stooping and their backs are breaking under the strain of holding us up. If I can pass a dollar bill down to them so they can stand up straight I will.

Edit: I'm aware this is pretty off topic, so i'm done with it and won't post more unless asked.

[Jesda]

"teen pregnancy as an example of something bad that happened beyond their control. Lets say that in this hypothetical situation they were using a condom and it broke..."

Rubber. Wear them.Pills. Take them.Legs. Close them.