The Official Election Thread

[Jesda]

As a registered libertarian, I'm curious to know how you achieved your current ideology....... I hate to begin chiming in on this thread, but, post whore.....you know?

I was first drawn to libertarian ideas out of open curiosity. My parents never raised me to follow any particular ideology or candidate, though my mom had tremendous respect for Reagan and liked Clinton well enough.

I began as a liberal Democrat out of what seemed like common sense at the time. I figured, if there was any kind of problem, government could fix it by compelling the rich to pay for it. Upon closer examination and eventually a better understanding of American politics, I realized that government was a tool being abused, and it not only failed to solve some problems, it often made them worse.

Libertarians took a new (or old, depending on perspective) approach to problem solving, relying on technology and the free market.The drug issue was also appealing -- libertarians focused not on the right to self-harm, but on civil asset forfeiture and unfair search and seizure. These were issues that Democrats and Republicans never addressed.

Starting a business also forced me to learn quickly about taxation. I developed a concern for protecting what I earned, and then considered how poorly my hard-earned money was being spent.

I'd vote straight-ticket Libertarian this time if I didnt move to a presidential swing state. The war was another issue that didn't sell me on Badnarik (though a third of libertarians otherwise favor the war in Iraq, including LP convention keynote speaker Neal Boortz).

-Jesda

[Nathan]

As i said before you don't know a fuking thing about me and it's obvious that you are some little stain in somebodys undershorts who is on mommys or daddys health insurance and doesn't have to worry about it for now, but a time will come and you will start to learn about life.

Actually, your reasonably correct. I disagree with the "stain in somebodys undershorts" part on the grounds that its just a childish comment. However, I AM still on my parents health insurance. You know why? They have good jobs, they've worked hard to get where they are today and I've been raised the same. If I end up with a ****ty enough job that I either cant afford to purchase my own health care plan or do not have benefits that cover it then its my own damn fault and you wont be hearing me asking others to make up for my shortcomings. Its a dog eat dog world and you absolutely must work as hard as possible to be better than your peers, if you do not, then thats not my problem at all. As for learning about life, I have allready learned a lot by observation, but I've also lived a pretty reasonable amount too. I'm sorry your bitter about your position in life, but it frankly should be none of my concern.

[StrangeLove]

think about presidents in the past running for a second term... they won by much bigger margins than just 3%...

[Jesda]

Greed is an inherent part of human nature, and modern economic theory would not exist without it. Needs and wants make the industrial world go round.

The beauty of the free market is that it can harness greed to produce the greatest good for the greatest number.

[biggie]

My summary:

Simple. The country is becoming more conservative (especially evident by the gaining of seats in house and congress, defeat of Minority leader, and LA voting in a very conservative Republican). They 'spoke out' in the election yesterday. Majority did rule. Just majority on this board (because of demographics -CA and younger) is Liberal, therefore most are upset (NICO could be Democratic ***** and complain forum for a few days).

Just an observation, although from a biased source.

[Jesda]

Counties

[StrangeLove]

hmmmmm, Jesda, can you give me some links regarding the libertarian party?

[StrangeLove]

that map is very misleading... post a weighted map, all that red drastically shrinks away

[f1seb]

.[/QUOTE]

Actually, your reasonably correct. I disagree with the "stain in somebodys undershorts" part on the grounds that its just a childish comment. However, I AM still on my parents health insurance. You know why? They have good jobs, they've worked hard to get where they are today and I've been raised the same. If I end up with a ****ty enough job that I either cant afford to purchase my own health care plan or do not have benefits that cover it then its my own damn fault and you wont be hearing me asking others to make up for my shortcomings. Its a dog eat dog world and you absolutely must work as hard as possible to be better than your peers, if you do not, then thats not my problem at all. As for learning about life, I have allready learned a lot by observation, but I've also lived a pretty reasonable amount too. I'm sorry your bitter about your position in life, but it frankly should be none of my concern.[/QUOTE]

Oh Im the childish one, lets forget the fact that you suggest Im some kind of slacker, where I dont give a fuk about where I'm going. I don't sit around in my room smoking a bong like you think I do, or cash welfare checks. It's great that you are fortunate enough to have parents that make enough money to put you through school and have you covered on your insruance. But that is not how I have it, I pay for my own school, I pay for my own car and insurance, and I have a job which is not full time and I don't get health benefits. Its unfortunate that neither of my parents can cover me under their medical. I migrated here with my parents 15 years ago and I might not have the same privelages as you do but that is how life works. But you are not going to tell me that my parent didn't work hard enough or I don't work hard enough to have some sort of future. Im angry cause that will come to me much harder now then if Kerry would be in charge. And so what if I have to go to a community college because I can't afford a good 4 year school, does that make me any less of a person then anybody else? I don't think so, you're not better then me your parents arent better then my parents but by how you post around here it sure looks like you think thats how it is which is extremely ignorant. Im trying to make ends meet you ahole not sitting around waiting for something to happen. So fuk off.

[Radian]

[QUOTE=Nathan]

. However, I AM still on my parents health insurance. You know why? They have good jobs, they've worked hard to get where they are today and I've been raised the same. If I end up with a ****ty enough job that I either cant afford to purchase my own health care plan or do not have benefits that cover it then its my own damn fault and you wont be hearing me asking others to make up for my shortcomings. Its a dog eat dog world and you absolutely must work as hard as possible to be better than your peers, if you do not, then thats not my problem at all.[QUOTE=Nathan]

Did it ever occur to you that some people don't have the advantages that you do in life. You have 2 parents that have good jobs, there for if you 'work hard' you will be able to get a good job too. Are you going to college? Are they going to pay for it? Very few are as lucky as you. Many, many people grow up in an atmosphere that does not assume that they will go to college, graduate and get a good job. Thats what your parents always expected of you right? To be able to, at a very young age, recognize that there is a possibility to break out of the standards set forth by society is an enormous accomplishment in itself. Being given every tool that you need to make a good life for yourself and then just connecting the dots can hardly 'pulling myself up by my own bootstraps'.

You need to take a step back and try to empathize with people. Instead of automatically blaming someone for problems in their life put yourself in their shoes. What would you do if you got your girlfriend pregnant at 16? You may think you have the awnsers but you don't. People have to deal with situations like that every day. Situations like that lead to an inability to afford healthcare, not lazyness or appathy. Think about what it would be like to deal with some hard questions without the family safty net you obviously have.

[jEzTeR]

The important thing in my mind now is for everyone to realize that It is over and Bush is in charge for 4 years. We need to make sure the country is unified as much as possible so that we can get things accomplished. The people of the country have spoken. Relax and take a few cleansing breaths.

My take on the whole thing is that the majority of the country just did not feel that Kerry was going to lead the country in the right manner. There were a bunch of people that I talked to who hate Bush but would still not vote Kerry because he doesn't stand for anything. They said that he seamed to change his stand depending on how the situation was going to effect him.

The other issues were just not enough to make the difference.

I hope that we can all move past this and get along.

[book-ends]

You bring up a few good points, however, my situation has reinforced my thinking. I am 26, going to college full time during the day and working forty hours a week at night. My major is Physics with minors in Applied Mathematics and Civil Engineering, not some liberal arts sleep-through type classes.

I make sure to work as hard as possible and scrimp and save so that I can afford the kick a$s health insurance that my college offers. I also make sure that I have a few dollars saved up every other month for car parts! I live with a roommate and have a dog. I can afford rent and utilities and sometimes even gas.....

I want to puke on the people that beg on street corners or people that are too stupid to know that squirting out a kid every nine months for the extra welfare/WIC checks isn't a good idea.

Bust your a$s and look to a future where my HARD EARNED tax dollars don't feed you or your family.

[Chingon]

damn..the bastard won ....for shame..

[Cyberkreig]

Pills man, Your Sig bothers me.

You dont have to vote for him, obviously. You dont have to agree with a damn thing he says. You dont even have to like him. But so long as you are an american citizen he IS your president. he is john kerrys president. he is john edwards president.

People that buck the system, and pull the 'not my president' 'i'm moving to another country' junk just make me angry. Like it or not this is our system. Use it. Write letters, protest, go on public access. Dont just buck it.

[JDMaholic]

I strongly oppose government funding of research, along with government funding of mostly anything but defense. In my ideal world, congress would meet 10 days out of a year in a dingy warehouse without climate control or chairs.

The better compensation and better conditions in the US are driving potential Canadian medical students to relocate to the US for education.

I agree with you Jesda about not spending money on government projects like research, but one thing you have to realize is the US has a great deal of govt. supported research, it's not just Canada. I go to Purdue and the research park here is HUGE, Billions of dollars are spent here to do a very inefficient jobs of researching about everything from cancer to biological computers. It is a separate entity from Purdue University because that way more money is availible through federal funding. Also as someone who thought about going to medical school about a year ago I can tell you that the Canadian medical schools are quite good and just as hard to get into as the american ones. From what gathered (there are people in my family who are doctors, and I contacted some schools in both america and canada) they are about equal (I would not go as far as to say the canadian ones are better though).

[Nathan]

You bring up a few good points, however, my situation has reinforced my thinking. I am 26, going to college full time during the day and working forty hours a week at night. My major is Physics with minors in Applied Mathematics and Civil Engineering, not some liberal arts sleep-through type classes.

I make sure to work as hard as possible and scrimp and save so that I can afford the kick a$s health insurance that my college offers. I also make sure that I have a few dollars saved up every other month for car parts! I live with a roommate and have a dog. I can afford rent and utilities and sometimes even gas.....

I want to puke on the people that beg on street corners or people that are too stupid to know that squirting out a kid every nine months for the extra welfare/WIC checks isn't a good idea.

Bust your a$s and look to a future where my HARD EARNED tax dollars don't feed you or your family.

Exactly, this is PRECISELY the point I was trying to make. This is what makes America the best nation, if you truly want something, it IS attainable through your own actions. Whining will get you nowhere but hardwork is rewarded very well in this nation. It all goes back to the phrase "if you want something done right, you'd better do it yourself". Putting your health and well-being in the hands of some presidential candidate is a poor choice, you should be relying upon yourself to take care of...yourself. I have friends from all walks of life in all different financial situations, one of my friends literally has different wings in her house, its enormous. My ex-girlfriend who I was with for 3 years came from practically nothing. However, that hasn't held her back...she got a lot of scholarships (she's half mexican...that helped) she works very hard for her money at a sorta decent job, but ultimately I consider her to be a success for someone her age. The reason she's successful is that she didn't rely on anyone else, all that she has attained has been a result of her own drive and ambition. I truly feel that nobody can blame anyone but themselves for whatever position they are in in life. This semester, I'm going to loose over 2000 dollars of MY money, not parent money...because I ****ed up. Thats just how it is, its my fault and I'm allright with that. My parents stopped paying for my classes because I didn't do well enough, and they are right, they SHOULDN'T be paying for them. I've always hated college and if I'm going to blow it off then it shouldn't be their money paying for it...its mine, and I feel better not going to class when I know I'm paying for my own little vacation here. Oh, and for the record...MY money is money I worked very hard to attain, I wasn't given it, inherited it, or anything else

[Nathan]

What would you do if you got your girlfriend pregnant at 16? You may think you have the awnsers but you don't. People have to deal with situations like that every day. Situations like that lead to an inability to afford healthcare, not lazyness or appathy.

I'm not going to address your entire post, just this part...its just too easy. If someone gets their girlfriend pregnant at 16 its their own goddamn fault. Where was the condom, where was the birth control, where was the ****ing self restraint??? Its very simple...if you dont want a kid, dont have sex. Do NOT give me the bull**** "but I have to have sex!" speech, if your that animalistic that you cant deny yourself one physical joy of life, your pathetic. I have no compassion for teen pregnancy at all, it cannot be looked at as an excuse for anything.

[gniknave]

Canadian officials made clear on Wednesday that any U.S. citizens so fed up with Bush that they want to make a fresh start up north would have to stand in line like any other would-be immigrants -- a wait that can take up to a year.

"You just can't come into Canada and say 'I'm going to stay here'. In other words, there has to be an application. There has to be a reason why the person is coming to Canada," said immigration ministry spokeswoman Maria Iadinardi.

There are anywhere from 600,000 to a million Americans living in Canada, a country that leans more to the left than the United States and has traditionally favored the Democrats over the Republicans.

But recent statistics show a gradual decline in U.S. citizens coming to work in Canada, which has a creaking publicly funded healthcare system and relatively high levels of personal taxation.

Government officials, real estate brokers and Democrat activists said that while some Americans might talk about a move to Canada rather than living with a new Bush administration, they did not expect a mass influx.

"It's one thing to say 'I'm leaving for Canada' and quite another to actually find a job here and wonder about where you're going to live and where the children are going to go to school," said one government official.

Roger King of the Toronto-based Democrats Abroad group said he had heard nothing to back up talk of a possible exodus of party members.

"I imagine most committed Democrats will want to stay in the United States and continue being politically active there," he told Reuters.

Americans seeking to immigrate can apply to become permanent citizens of Canada, a process that often takes a year. Becoming a full citizen takes a further three years.

The other main way to move north on a long-term basis is to find a job, which in all cases requires a work permit. This takes from four to six months to come through.

Official statistics show the number of U.S. workers entering Canada dropped to 15,789 in 2002 from 21,627 in 2000. Early indicators on Wednesday showed little sign of this changing.

A spokesman for Canada's foreign affairs ministry said there had been no increase in the number of hits on the Washington embassy's immigration Web site, while housing brokers said they doubted they would see a surge in U.S. business.

"Canada's always open and welcoming to Americans who want to relocate here, but we don't think it would be a trend or movement," said Gino Romanese of Royal Lepage Residential Real Estate Services in Toronto.

Those wishing to move to Canada could always take a risk and claim refugee status -- the path chosen earlier this year by two U.S. deserters who opposed the war in Iraq (news - web sites).

"Anybody who enters Canada who claims refugee status will be provided with a work permit ... it doesn't matter what country they're from," Iadinardi said.

Refugee cases are handled by special boards, which can take months to decide whether to admit applicants. The rulings can be appealed and opposition politicians complain some people ordered deported have been in Canada for 10 years or more.

source: yahoo news

[gniknave]

Sorry I meant to post this in the official election thread....

[BuudWeizErr]

ooh ooh, look what I found!=Good ol GW's first 'whatever' after being re-elected!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/ne...iling

how it's possible to have him be reelected escapes me on SOOO many levels. GG America. Another 4 years with this lying sonofa and his team of CEO's.. maybe everyone will understand what they've done to this country by 08. Spend More! Tax Less! yea, smart! The United States of America (sponsored in part by Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China, etc).

[Meantime]

Green Day said it best:

"Idiot America"

[JustinStrife]

Anyone can make it in America. Be in denial all you want about getting through life and coming out ahead. Hard work and effort do pay off! You HAVE TO BE SMART ABOUT IT. Get an education. Get experience in different job markets. If one job field isn't working out, move on to another one. Quit crying poor me I can't afford health insurance or I can't afford to eat. There are student loans for college. There are charities that can help people who are struggling. It's not as difficult to make a living in America as the Democrats would have you believe. I've been working for the past 6 years, I go to college part time when I can afford it(I pay for it though I don't do school loans), I got a loan for a 96' Chevy 4x4 3 years ago, it's going to be paid off in 2 months, I JUST bought a 95' 240sx SE for less then 2500 bucks through an insurance auction that is coming along nicely. I have a nice laptop and desktop. The company I work for provides health insurance, and I'm looking at moving away from aviation, into possibly getting into the computer field making even more money. In a year or two, my 240 should be done the way I want it, then I will focus on getting a house in the hopes of starting a family. I'm 24 years old right now, and my life couldn't look brighter.

Want to say my parents helped me out? My dad's out of state 4 weeks at a time, and only in Cali for a week at the most. My step-mother spends most of her time up in Los Angeles with her job. Ever since I moved in with them at 13 they've hardly been around. You see me crying about it? No. I got through High School, got a job, and got onto my own two feet. That's the American way is it not? And that's more so the Republican way then the democrat way it seems sometimes... I'm absolutely against handouts for people who are too lazy to work. End of story.

[Cold_Zero]

think about presidents in the past running for a second term... they won by much bigger margins than just 3%...

I don't know where you get your delusions that the candidate that wins a Presidential race must have a vast majority. Jimmy Carter didn't win by much more than 2% and he was still rightfully the President of the United States. It doesn't matter if he won by a vote or a mile, President Bush is the President of the United States. Remember, there is no Constitutional provision to allow people to decide the outcome of the race for the office of the President. States allow you to vote in the election and that vote decides who receives the electoral votes. Here are some interesting tid bits

1. John F. Kennedy beat Richard Nixon by about 120,000 popular votes in 1960 but won the Electoral College 303-219, taking New York and 22 other states 2. One candidate won a plurality of the popular vote and the Electoral College but lost the election - Andrew Jackson. The House selected John Quincy Adams in 1824. 3. 2000 Bush (against Gore) won the election by a margin of -1% of the popular vote. 4. 1976 Carter (against Ford) won the election by a margin of 2.1% of the popular vote. 5. 1968 Nixon (against Humphrey) won the election by a margin of .7% of the popular vote. 6 1960 Kennedy (against Nixon) won the election by a margin of .2% of the popular vote. 7. 1948 Truman (against Dewey) won the election by a margin of 4.5% of the popular vote. 8. 1916 Wilson (against Hughes) won the election by a margin of 3.1% of the popular vote.

You see, the past 100 years have been full of close races and margins.

[Drift Machine]

Vicki - Already ahead of you on the moving away part, I honestly don't know if I will ever move back.

Ryan - it seems like you are one of the few people that shares my deep hatred for the man. But make sure you get a team on it, don't want d!ck running the country.

Cyberkreig - are you Native American? If not then you're ancestors bucked shipped one time becuase they didn't like the current system in their country.

Pills - Definately keep the sig.

Book ends - so me studying economics and sociology is absolutely pointless? The reason studies such as sociology get the reputation of being sleep through classes is becuase all the work is done outside of class.

Personally I'm very dissatisfied with Bush, there is absolutely nothing I agree with him on. At least I can take heart in knowing Washington still has hope... But maybe coming from a family that is in the top 5 percent of nation just gives me a liberal attitude (along with the rest of my family).
Modified by Drift Machine at 6:19 PM 11/3/2004

[Cold_Zero]

BTW-People with the Presidential Cannidates with the highest number of votes:

1. Bush 59,106,230 votes2. Kerry 55,546,066 votes3. Reagan 54,455,075 votes4. Gore 50,999,8975. Bush 50,456,0026. Bush Sr 48,886,097

It will be interesting to see in 2008 if the numbers decline or grow. Voter participation wasnt all that high.

Beating Kerry by 3.5 million votes added more credibility to Bush's race this year. Had the votes been closer or the margin flip flopped, it would be a whole nother race. A lot has happened in this race. The Republicans have increased their majority in the Senate 55 to 44, they maintain control of the House 231 to 200 and control more Governerships 28 to 21. It will be interesting to see the GOP spin in the coming weeks. I wonder if they will pull out "clear mandate" verbage in light of these victories. What shocked me is that Daschel lost by 4k votes in South Dakota. WOW.

[The Mic]

the reason there more votes now is because the country grew since the last 4 years

[JustinStrife]

http://blog.johnkerry.com/blog....html

Guaranteed for a few laughs. The idiocy of these people is... Frankly very frightening. I spent half an hour laughing my a$$ off over their comments before the cold hard truth that they actually BELIEVE this, hit me.

In 4 years, when America is doing better then it was right before 9/11, I'll be curious what they say then. More negative comments. That's all liberals know(not saying all democrats but liberals)

[s13sr20chris]

Ummm it's not official until Kerry concedes and he hasn't. There are still unknown votes. The media is always quick to declare stuff before it's actually official. *cough lastelection cough*

actually its still unofficial. the electors will cast their votes later on(i think its in january) and they can technically vote for anyone they want as has happened 8 times in the past(although it has never influenced the election result).

[s13sr20chris]

Our biggest problem with universal healthcare is that we simply just don't graduate enough doctors to meet our aging population demand.

lack of desire for excellence. socialism will do that for ya. we americans know it well as a good many of those on welfare have been fooled in that way.

[fluidmotion]

The main reason why bush won the presidency, according to the polls, is because of moral values. The only reason why people think bush has more moral values than kerry is that people who are conservative generally are considered to have more moral values. But is this true? Is a liberal person less moral than a conservative? I think in the end, both the candidates should have been equal in moral value, but because of the stereotype, people believe that bush should be more moral.

So basically, Bush won not on any issues, local or foreign, but just because of the stereotype.

For the war in iraq, in some ways I would blame bush, but in some ways I don’t. After 9-11, I think that the US needed to blame someone and maybe the US had some side motivations for attacking iraq specifically instead of other countries (oil), but just the fact that someone needed to take the blame, iraq just happened to be the one that did. Everything is always about the mob mentality, if everyone wants to see something happen, or blame someone, someone has to take the fall. But, on the other hand, you would think that the president of the United States of all people would be able to control himself and wait until ALL the right information is correct before starting a war.

This is where I support kerry, because kerry is a man who didn’t just hide behind his father. When bush served in the military, I’m sure he had his father pull some strings in which he could get an easy job as a paper pusher. Bush never saw anything even close to war, while Kerry would be more hesitant because he actually served in a war.

But on the issue of war, I think bush should still be in office to just finish what he started, even though he did a bad job throughout the first part, changing plans in the middle of a war may cause even more chaos.

In the end, I voted for kerry because I think the United States deserves some change. Bush has cause so many problems, including violation of people’s civil rights. The US should learn from its mistakes in the past of violating people’s civil rights (Japanese internment camps and etc) and not continually break people’s civil rights.

I’ve read some of the posts, and I just think that some of them are very narrow minded.

It is true that in America you can become whatever you want, but to what degree do some people have it easier than others? Obviously it is not anyone’s fault for being born into a richer family, but you should at least help the others to gain the same opportunities or try to even the playing field a little bit.

If you consider someone who lives in the projects, they are surrounded by drugs and violence. How do you possibly expect someone to succeed in those conditions. Again, if you want to succeed, you obviously need to at least have the necessities of life, and many people don’t even know where their next meal is coming from, and you expect them to go to college and have all these aspirations? If I was that poor, my first concern would be where I’m going to sleep next, when I’m going to get my next meal, etc. There are just so many different factors that may effect different people that you can not account for all of them. You can’t expect it to be so black and white, that as long as people try, they can succeed.

Besides all of that, the issues should be someone’s main concern. A lot of them really are just based upon opinion though.

It seems to me that the biggest arguments on this forum is generalizing democrats and republicans. In the end, once a president is in office, they must be quite moderate. So in the end, the concern for democrat or republican isn’t that big of a deal, because the president must stay moderate.

Personally, I have it fairly easy, but I work very hard still. I am going to the University of Minnesota full time and my major is Electrical Engineering, and I work more than full time right now. I pay for all my own expenses. Not because my parents aren’t well off, but because I choose to pay for my own stuff. Both my parents are college graduates, one with their doctorate, and the other with their masters. We all chose to vote for kerry, because we thought that the United States deserved a change.

Sorry, tons of grammar errors, not a lot of time to write it, heh. wrote it very informally. and sorry, it's probably very disorganized.