The Official Election Thread

[MaineExport]

Radian, I agree with a lot of what you have to say. We, as spoiled Americans, take many things for granted... not the least of which are our freedom and prosperity.

The problem I see with your "theory" (for lack of a more appropriate term), is that you are approaching these issues in an IDEALISTIC manner. There is nothing wrong with being idealistic, but the world turns because of pragmatic behavior, not idealistic pondering. It would be great if we could just give handouts to anyone in need... problem is that this kind of behavior PERPETUATES the problem instead of solving it.

This is all very basic macro-econ stuff. The socialist ideals you tout have been proven to crumble economies. The simple hard cold fact of the matter is that our economy is the strongest and most elastic in world; and It didn't get that way by making the "playing field level". It would be great to think that would work, but it doesn't... and it boils economic strength down to the lowest common denominator. In other words... within a decade the middle class would likely disappear. This phenomenon is ALSO very true with pure capitalism... as was seen in the great depression.

The reason our economy works so well is that for 80 years or so we have had a delicate balance between pure socialism and pure capitalism. NEITHER ONE WORKS BY ITSELF!

Just for the record, I am 28... I've been in the work force working my tail off for 12 years and I've been blessed. I have also been paying my OWN way through college for the last 10 years. I didn't have any more advantages than anybody else.

[StrangeLove]

Can someone pleas explain to me how they can trust bush? The election of 2000 for starters, the failure to prevent 9/11 in anyway shape or form, letting osama bin laden go, misleading us into iraq, and many more

Jesda, I can see the reasoning behind the Libertarian party, it has alot of good ideas. I'll comment on it some more once I've read more into it.

[MaineExport]

Sorry... I had an answer for you, Pills, but I misread your question.

Why do I trust Bush? I could talk about it all day, but it's a waste to answer a rhetorical question. I see your frustration, but the way you are handling this "defeat" is just going to make you more frustrated.

[Cold_Zero]

Can someone pleas explain to me how they can trust bush? The election of 2000 for starters, the failure to prevent 9/11 in anyway shape or form, letting osama bin laden go, misleading us into iraq, and many more

Jesda, I can see the reasoning behind the Libertarian party, it has alot of good ideas. I'll comment on it some more once I've read more into it.

1. Why are you so upset about the 2000 Election? He won the vote through the Electoral College right?2. Why do you think President Bush could have prevented 9-11? The only person that could have stopped 9-11 was Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda. We saw a new style of attack that had never been on our radar. And thanks to Bill Clinton for cutting our ODIC budgets, we didnt have enough spies to detect this plot.3. How did Bush let Osama bin Laden go? Hunting people down, especially when they have the means and the want to not be found, is a tough job. The FBI is still looking for Eric Rudolph and no one has seen Jimmy Hoffa since the 60's. 4. I am tired of arguing or hearing arguements on misleading the US about Iraq. I will give that one to you.

bud

[The Mic]

silence everyone, its over. Now lets all get together for a biiIIiiig sausage-fest.

[Jesda]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!



I'll bring the BBQ sauce and potato salad!!!

[Nathan]

I'm cooking fajita's tonight for a bunch o' friends!

[s13sr20chris]

You and Nathan both totally missed the point on that. I was using teen pregnancy as an example of something bad that happened beyond their control. Lets say that in this hypothetical situation they were using a condom and it broke...

Let's not say anything more about that actually, that isn't the point. The point is the same that Fluidmotion is making - the playing field isn't level. While you might be able to make a great life with healthcare and expensive cars by working hard, many people work far harder than you for far less. The point I was trying to make is similar to what fluidmotion was getting at with his first post. People in marginalized communities do not have the mindset that you have. Not too long ago I spent some time in El Salvador with marginalized (very poor) communites. They were organized into community groups, pooled their resources and educated themselves. As a result they got running water. They still live in tin shacks with dirt floors and work all day in fields to grow corn to eat. This is a different country but the mind set is the same for marginalized people everywhere. The people in this comunity did not think into the future, they don't have that luxury. They need to be concerned with finding food, washing their clothes by hand, finding a way to pay for the water pump. If they didn't think about those things they would die. The thought "Ya know, I could get a loan, go to college for four years, graduate, get a good job and repay the loan" would never occur to them.You may say "It is their own fault for not planning ahead" but you say that because you don't understand what it is like to be in their situation. If you were there you would understand what an enormous difference a little government aid could make. To get that aid the government might need to *gasp* increase taxes. That means you might have to give up that weekly candybar and can of soda. I would be more than willing to make that "sacrifice". I refuse to turn my back on people that need my help. I refuse to put the blinders on and opt out with the easy awnser ("they did it to themselves"). We are all members of the same species. We all live on the same planet (same country?). Giving people the tools they need to help themselves not only elevates them, it elevates us. The system needs to change. Everyone on this board is a part of the system, and 99% of us are at the top of the pyramid. We sit at it's point holding our cars, TVs, computers, clothes, houses. That weight is supported by thousands of poor people who are kept at the base of the pyramid so we can remain at it's peak. They are stooping and their backs are breaking under the strain of holding us up. If I can pass a dollar bill down to them so they can stand up straight I will.

Edit: I'm aware this is pretty off topic, so i'm done with it and won't post more unless asked.

i love your charity but why must you confuse it with govt responsibility? can you feel good about money that you did not choose to give? do you feel good about forcing that charity burden on others? tax dollars are not yours to give. nor do they belong to the govt to give out. they belong to the people. not some people but all.

[fluidmotion]

mmm, I agree, that some people definitely don't deserve the money, but on the other hand, many people do. I guess it's pretty much an opinion of whether or not it's worth it to give those people who abuse the money to those who really need it. I just see it as, why do you take away aid from people who really honestly need it just because some people are abusing it? Why punish good people for a few bad apples? But that is just based on how you look at it.

Obviously, you can't support all the government plans and the government will force you to give money to things you don't want to, but generally, I would like to think the money is going to a good cause. IE: road construction so you can drive without destroying that nice body kit of yours, haha.

I also don't see it as forcing a burden on others. Of course I wouldn't mind a little extra money in my pocket, but if that extra money has the likeliness of helping someone in need, I don't see why I won't give up a few dollars every paycheck to someone.

And tax dollars aren't given out, they are used to run programs that help people, so they indirectly help people. IE: financial aid, welfare, and etc.

I believe that in most cases, whenever you give, you'll eventually end up receiving back.

[book-ends]

The FBI is still looking for Eric Rudolph and no one has seen Jimmy Hoffa since the 60's. bud

Actually, a fellow came forward several months ago and claimed to have been there when Hoffa was killed. He led the FBI to a garage where a skeleton and a few bloody rags were buried under the concrete..........DNA tests say Hoffa.

Boom! I think this was a brief blurb on the news some time ago. Maybe I'm confusing Hoffa with, uh, some......one?

[NY94J30]

really, i know a smart political guy like you has a copy. its the part about no person having their life taken without a trial(paraphrase) and yes i believe you are right on the 9th. forgot that one. but hey, if one amendmant isnt good enough for those nutty justices then two wont either.

My thought is that your understanding of the resoning behing Roe and Casey is marginal to none. I dont mean this as an insult, rather as an observation, inasmuch as your conception of the 14th A is simplified, at best. If you like, I'll try to break it down for you. But I guess my bottom line is that you would have to read the decisions in order to make a statement like the one you made - and clearly you haven't. While you think that judicial interpretation is akin to law making, it is necessitated by the lowest common demominator that stautes, and ultimately the Constitution are, and moreover the by the vagueness, ambiguity and ultimate inadequacy of language.

[StrangeLove]

1. Why are you so upset about the 2000 Election? He won the vote through the Electoral College right?2. Why do you think President Bush could have prevented 9-11? The only person that could have stopped 9-11 was Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda. We saw a new style of attack that had never been on our radar. And thanks to Bill Clinton for cutting our ODIC budgets, we didnt have enough spies to detect this plot.3. How did Bush let Osama bin Laden go? Hunting people down, especially when they have the means and the want to not be found, is a tough job. The FBI is still looking for Eric Rudolph and no one has seen Jimmy Hoffa since the 60's. 4. I am tired of arguing or hearing arguements on misleading the US about Iraq. I will give that one to you.

bud

1. The situation with Florida, his brother being the governor, Katherine Harris, etc. You know the situation

2. The US was warned MANY times that 9/11 was going to happen. We didn't need spies, they practically told us when it was going to happen. Did anyone in his administration do anything...? NOPE! However, he was on vacation 42% of the time during those first 8 months...

3. We found saddam didn't we? Before we suddenly switched to Iraq we had Osama corned... We have now basically stopped looking for him.

4. "50 tons of sarin nerve gas on a turkey farm" -Dubya

[JustinStrife]

1. The situation with Florida, his brother being the governor, Katherine Harris, etc. You know the situation

2. The US was warned MANY times that 9/11 was going to happen. We didn't need spies, they practically told us when it was going to happen. Did anyone in his administration do anything...? NOPE! However, he was on vacation 42% of the time during those first 8 months...

3. We found saddam didn't we? Before we suddenly switched to Iraq we had Osama corned... We have now basically stopped looking for him.

4. "50 tons of sarin nerve gas on a turkey farm" -Dubya

Pills, pills, pills. You're a very bitter and angry person. There were a minimum of 3 recounts in Florida, and everytime the vote came out with Bush winning Florida. How many recounts would you have wanted? There were NO standards for how chads were going to be counted, and I think it ironic that the problems were all in Democratic counties. Not to generalize here, but do Democrats have a problem figuring out the rules on voting? Can you not figure out a ballot? The political system worked. You just weren't happy with the results. Deal with it and move on. 4 years should be more then enough to move forward.

VERY FEW predicted anything like 9/11 to happen. Leading up to the attack, America had been asleep at the wheel. Starting with the first world trade center bombing of 93, to the attack on the U.S. Cole, to 9/11. Not including other attacks on American property. Cuts in military spending, on intelligence spending, making it more difficult for the FBI and the CIA to coordinate information together during the Clinton Administration, countless actions led up to 9/11. Quit blaming Bush for the failures of the 90's.

Bush on Vacation 42% of the time? Blowing things out of proportion is typical of you Pills. Also assuming that the times Bush spent on his Ranch in Texas and not still fulfilling the role of President, is very ignorant. Everytime he went to his Ranch he was still being updated DAILY if not HOURLY by his cabinet, he still made phone calls to foreign leaders, and still did his job. But you don't want to see that.

[BadMojo]

Oh, well. Think of it this way. If you voted for the rich, old white guy we're all winners!

[StrangeLove]

Pills, pills, pills. You're a very bitter and angry person. There were a minimum of 3 recounts in Florida, and everytime the vote came out with Bush winning Florida. How many recounts would you have wanted? There were NO standards for how chads were going to be counted, and I think it ironic that the problems were all in Democratic counties. Not to generalize here, but do Democrats have a problem figuring out the rules on voting? Can you not figure out a ballot? The political system worked. You just weren't happy with the results. Deal with it and move on. 4 years should be more then enough to move forward.

VERY FEW predicted anything like 9/11 to happen. Leading up to the attack, America had been asleep at the wheel. Starting with the first world trade center bombing of 93, to the attack on the U.S. Cole, to 9/11. Not including other attacks on American property. Cuts in military spending, on intelligence spending, making it more difficult for the FBI and the CIA to coordinate information together during the Clinton Administration, countless actions led up to 9/11. Quit blaming Bush for the failures of the 90's.

Bush on Vacation 42% of the time? Blowing things out of proportion is typical of you Pills. Also assuming that the times Bush spent on his Ranch in Texas and not still fulfilling the role of President, is very ignorant. Everytime he went to his Ranch he was still being updated DAILY if not HOURLY by his cabinet, he still made phone calls to foreign leaders, and still did his job. But you don't want to see that.

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election; the people who count the votes do" -Joseph Stalin

If you think the voting system is perfect and accurate, then you are sadly mistaken, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you.

I don't care to hear anymore of your "points". I've heard them all before, conservatives are repeating the same things over and over again. If you want to continue to go against common sense, then be my guest...

You are a perfect example of why I have lost faith in the human race.

[MaineExport]

I don't care to hear anymore of your "points". I've heard them all before, conservatives are repeating the same things over and over again. If you want to continue to go against common sense, then be my guest...

You are a perfect example of why I have lost faith in the human race.

SEE ALSO: Pot, kettle, black

[JESTER]

1. Why are you so upset about the 2000 Election? He won the vote through the Electoral College right?2. Why do you think President Bush could have prevented 9-11? The only person that could have stopped 9-11 was Osama bin Laden and Al Quaeda. We saw a new style of attack that had never been on our radar. And thanks to Bill Clinton for cutting our ODIC budgets, we didnt have enough spies to detect this plot.3. How did Bush let Osama bin Laden go? Hunting people down, especially when they have the means and the want to not be found, is a tough job. The FBI is still looking for Eric Rudolph and no one has seen Jimmy Hoffa since the 60's. 4. I am tired of arguing or hearing arguements on misleading the US about Iraq. I will give that one to you.

bud

Well one correction, Eric Robert Rudolph was captured. I think the first of this year. A beat cop found him eating out of a dumpster. Three or four years on the run out in the woods, and get busted eating out of a dumpster. And remember he was not an evil mastermind that plots to destroy the world, just a regular old nut job.

And as far as Bush misleading us on Iraq, I still have not been convienced on that. Our troops found French made missles that were in violation of the santions imposed by the UN. Our troops found jets burried out in the dessert that were in violation of said sanctions, in the fact they were aquired after the sanctions, Mig 25, foxbat. Legal for them to have for defense, but from what I am getting they would have to have gotten them post Dessert Storm, after the sanctions were imposed. Stock piles of artillery shells for use with chemical agents. The dump sites of those chemicals (I can not state when they were dumped, could have well before the UN told them too, I dont know.) It is well know that there were terrorlst training camps in Iraq. Again, I can not say that they were Al Quaeda. There weren't too many terrorlst left there to question. They left to go kill Americans before we got there.

Everyone of these instances were recorded by CNN, with the exception of the Jets burried in the dessert. That one I dont have a new article to back up, but I do have a few pictures, which many of you may have already seen from the internet. I am sure they could be faked, that is if someone can lay hands on a mig, burry it, and borrow a company of GI's to dig it out, and pose for the pictures.

I had also heard that they had made a few more finds in Iraq in the past month, but since nothing had come out prior to the election, maybe not.

[Jesda]

[nametakennow]

"The people who cast the votes don't decide an election; the people who count the votes do" -Joseph Stalin

If you think the voting system is perfect and accurate, then you are sadly mistaken, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you.

I don't care to hear anymore of your "points". I've heard them all before, conservatives are repeating the same things over and over again. If you want to continue to go against common sense, then be my guest...

You are a perfect example of why I have lost faith in the human race.

Quoting Joseph Stalin, eh? You do remember that, by many accounts, he was worse than Hitler?

Do you have a solution for making the voting system "perfect?" If so, I'll gladly put you in charge of the vote counting. It's entirely ridiculous to think that any system could be perfect, especially when millions upon millions of things (votes) have to be accounted for. Your earlier comment about Bush's brother being Governor is one of the more brash and far-fetched things I've heard of. His brother didn't count the votes. Jeb would have 0 interest in trying to "fix" anything because he would FAR too easily be caught, ruining both his AND his brother's political careers.

Conservatives and Liberals alike point to the same things constantly because they firmly believe them, deal with it.

42% vacation? If you were President, you'd probably get real sick of the Washington atmosphere in a heartbeat too. He can work just as effectively from his ranch or Camp David. The White House is just a house too.

Finally, what's with blaming the President for everything? Honestly, the President has VERY little power over our everyday lives. The Legislative branch writes the laws, remember? There is always a way to get things done without the President's approval. This is particularly true of 9/11, no one had ANY idea that a large scale attack would happen. Threats are made every day from middle schools (I remember several times in MS being evacuated or locked down for bomb threats every day for a week or more) to the entire nation. Osama is good at what he does, but that kind of attack no one was prepared for. Not to mention that Bush had been in office for all of 9 months at the time.

I didn't really like either candidate all that much. I, personally, lean Libertarian. But what can I really say? I missed out on being able to vote in this election by 9 1/2 months.

I guess my frustration with comments like yours come from the fact that most of my friends are extremely liberal. I just avoid political or religious discussions with them anymore.

The Lunatic Fringe on both sides frightens me.

[Jesda]

Full size:http://mooreorpig.com/obese_delusional_lunatic.jpg

[Jesda]

The "monkey" is smarter than Frankenstein:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10...login

"Mr. Bush's score on the Air Force Officer Qualifying Test at age 22 again suggests that his I.Q was the mid-120's, putting Mr. Bush in about the 95th percentile of the population, according to Mr. Sailer. Mr. Kerry's I.Q. was about 120, in the 91st percentile, according to Mr. Sailer's extrapolation of his score at age 22 on the Navy Officer Qualification Test."

[JDMaholic]

Yes I agree the president has limited power and cannot be to blame for all that goes wrong. The only 2 things I have against bush were things that I thought were his job and he did poorly. Instilling faith in the american people about the condition of their county and it's economy. Clinton did an excellent job of this, even if he lied through his teeth people believed it. When people hear something is bad they panic and I think president Bush was guilty of this sometimes. Second of all the war, this probably was due to his advisors as much as him. I think he should have waited for the UN instead of underminding their authority, I honestly belive that his decision no to wait took a huge step backward for world peace in the future. Also I may have not thought this had I not seen the president Bush-Saddham "debate" before the war were Saddam seemed to be willing to do whatever it took to prevent war (whether he actually would have or not who knows) and president Bush's response was basically we are goin to attack you no matter what and seemed to not even want to attempt a peaceful solution. It makes one wonder if this was to counter the poor economy and attacks and worked as a good scapegoat. I truely think for this he is a war criminal, read my sig. As for "handouts" and charity I think some people here are a little narrow minded by saying people should work hard and then they will get want they want and not complain about it. There are things like racism and the fact that alot of lazy idiots inheirt want they want and never have to work a day if they don't want to. No I don't feel that we should give every bum a new car just becasue he is too lazy to work. But don't you feel that every human being is entitled to the basic necessities fo life, and what about thier children they are innocent why penalize them, don't they deserve the same opportunity to learn without worrying about what they are goin to eat next. Justin I think it is honestly very disturbing if you feel that the poor should get nothing. Also justin like I said before the president has limited power, you can't blame the economy and the terrorits attacks on Clinton anymore than you can Bush, Recessions happen, and the attacks were probably a result of American attitudes. Having a larger military is not the answer unless you want to invade every county and have world control. Wow my fingers hurt after typing and I appologize for the many grammatical errors I'm sure are present

[Jesda]

My folks are millionaires and came to the US dead-flat-broke.

Get off your pasty *** and work.

[JDMaholic]

My folks are also quite sucessful and came from nothing as (my father talks about shooting of stabbing stuff to eat, quite humorous actually). And I'm not saying give handouts to everyone, I'm saying every peron deserves basic necessities of life. Jesda what about people who physically cannot work? i.e. severly retarded persons, quadriplegics etc.

I will probably take an engineering job after christmas when I graduate(hopefully at International) and make my medeocre 45-65k and I will be sure to donate to charities that I feel are worthwhilw and won't have a problem with SOME govt. aid to the less fortunite. I personally have a bigger problem with things like aid to people in Florida who moved to a place they know is hit by hurricanes on a regular basis.

And yes my *** is pasty white and I like sitting on it thank you very much

[nismodave]

HA HA HA..........All you moron Dems and your gay celeberties couldnt turn the election.

Look at your party, its in total chaos. You are the Minority in this country and you need to re-evaluate yourselves and your values.

Only thing Im mad about is that my state went for Kerry, by 12,000 votes. I suppose its to be expected, since Madison is the most Liberal city in the country.

Once again.............HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

[nametakennow]

Yes I agree the president has limited power and cannot be to blame for all that goes wrong. The only 2 things I have against bush were things that I thought were his job and he did poorly. Instilling faith in the american people about the condition of their county and it's economy. Clinton did an excellent job of this, even if he lied through his teeth people believed it. When people hear something is bad they panic and I think president Bush was guilty of this sometimes. Second of all the war, this probably was due to his advisors as much as him. I think he should have waited for the UN instead of underminding their authority, I honestly belive that his decision no to wait took a huge step backward for world peace in the future. Also I may have not thought this had I not seen the president Bush-Saddham "debate" before the war were Saddam seemed to be willing to do whatever it took to prevent war (whether he actually would have or not who knows) and president Bush's response was basically we are goin to attack you no matter what and seemed to not even want to attempt a peaceful solution. It makes one wonder if this was to counter the poor economy and attacks and worked as a good scapegoat. I truely think for this he is a war criminal, read my sig.

First, your problem with Bush is that he's not as good of a politician as Clinton? That's an odd thing to weigh on. Personally, I like the people representing me to be more like me. Albeit that, as a debater, I've developed the ability to tell people that Mozart was a goat and have them believe it, but debate world and the real world are different things. However simple Bush may seem, at least we know he's not smooth enough to get by telling us things that are entirely made up (not baseless, to those who would claim he lied about Iraq... the claims made about Iraq were baseless, not made up, there is a fine line).

Second, the UN has no power. It's a bunch of "leaders" who get together and talk. The UN has no powers of a governing body. If you read the text of a UN Resolution this would be apparent. The text includes "suggestions" and "recommendations," as well as "studies" and "funding for relief efforts." The UN can't hold anyone to justice.

Finally, Bush's statements leaning towards "attack you, period" in regards to Saddam were because Saddam had wrapped the UN around his finger over and over, promising to let the inspectors in and give up weapons, then not doing it. Bush's statements were "Hand over the weapons or we're coming." Saddam made little if any effort to comply. The only real issue I see with Iraq is that our post-war planning was lacking, but we'll get there.

[JDMaholic]

Hmm I see where your coming from with the being a good politician, I think that optimism can help drive the economy, especially retail, and I think in situations like his "debate" with Saddam those are the kinds of skills that help, not to convince him to do something different, but to let other countries know that we are not blood thirsty assassins but reasonable, rational, and just in our decisions. I guess I would say the same thing about the UN, they don't have alot of direct power, but they do have a great deal in terms of their approval likely means the approval of other nations.

[nametakennow]

Which is just that, approval. Moreover, a lot of nations hate the UN in because they're not in it.

The only people who claim we are bloodthirsty are the media and the people who listen to them. Even the vast majority of the French, if you actually talked to them, don't think we're that off the wall (a bit weird, but yeah).

Unfounded optimism only hurts. Bush was realistically optimistic the entire time that the country recessed. He is now becoming more optimistic as the country strengthens.

[dreamsOfSkylines]

In accordance with NICO's political thought containment policy I am reposting here:

DISCLAIMER: I do not hate america. I do not hate republicans. They just confuse me. Please explain anything that you disagree with, I'm pretty open minded. I don't just think along party lines, I try to think for myself. I would like to encourage you to do the same.

I just don't get it, Bush won the popular vote?? I know a lot of people are sick of talking about politics at this point, but thats half the problem. You have to always consider the effect your decisions make on other people, and not just once every four years. The republicans ran a campaign based on pure fear, and they won. Fear of terrorists, fear of gay marriage, basically fear of the unknown. You're more likely to die from any number of illnesses than terrorism, yet fear of terrorism wins out over improved health coverage and stem cell research. Your more likely to die in a car accident, maybe we should all buy Volvos? Even intellegent conservatives were saying to get Bush out of office. He isn't fiscally conservative. He isn't conservative on labor/immigration issues.They say that Bush won from "values votes". First of all, one of the founding concepts of America is freedom of religion. This means that no one (including christians) is supposed to use the government to implement their beliefs. If you do believe that abortion and homosexuality are sins, then the abortionists and gays will all burn in hell for all eternity, right? Isn't that enough? It's not like they're getting married in YOUR church, its not like they're marriage is recognized by YOUR church. Nobody is forcing YOU to get an abortion.

People tell me, "Oh, but Bush did such a great job after 9/11." What did he do that was so great? ANY president would have invaded Afganistan, and most would have put a little more effort into actually taking full control of the country and rebuilding it. Most of the country is still under the rule of warlords. Opium production has sky rocketed. There are serious questions as to whether meaningful elections can be held in such a lawless land.

Bush and Co. knew that their was no tie between Iraq and Al-Queda before the war, and they had little to no valid evidence of WMDs. Osama Bin Laden considered Sadam an infidel, due to his secular government. They violated numerous international laws in their "preemptive war" against a country which has no means to attack us. Sadam wouldn't have been a problem at all if we didn't put him in power and arm him back in Bush Senior's days. Nobody is arguing that Sadam wasn't a bad guy, but the the means don't always justify the ends. Take a look at this for example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/...1.pdf These people are at least partly to blame for the Abu Gahrib "scandal".

The fact is, you can't win a conventional war against terrorists. Al Queda recruitment has shot up dramatically since the start of the Iraq war, we are LESS SAFE now. For every bad guy we kill in there, we get at least five innocent civillians too. Every single relative of these people is then going to swear revenge against America (just like we swore revenge after 9/11) and the vicous cycle continues to propagate. There is a limited number of radicals in these places (like the religous leaders who urge young children to become suicide bombers). Its not easy to convince your average person to give up their life for any cause, but we are giving them plenty of material to work with when we kill these peoples' loved ones. You need to remove the popular support for these people, not boost it. Give the people tangible benefits like better security and infrastructure, not just abstract talk about "freedom".

People in other countries do not hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because of our imperialism. America has frequently removed democratically elected governments with socialist leanings, in favor of iron fisted dictators who will make they're natraul resources and markets available to us. Read a history book, its all blood money. We use an amazingly disproportinate amount of the worlds natraul resources. If america reduced its meat intake by just 10%, we could feed every single starving person in the whole world.

Oh well, never mind my ramblings. Enjoy your tax break, buy an assult rifle, and keep a close eye on your neighbor.

[SmithSR]

Good last sentence. The rest is a joke