Anyone able to d'load The Grey Album yesterday, or before? And care to share over AIM???
If you dont know what it is (Jay Z Black Album and Beatles White Album DJ mix):
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02...8hpib
The Grey Album???
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StrangeLove
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pills wrote:Why must they ruin good music with bad "music"... (beatles = good)
Sorry for not helping you, but this kind of stuff makes me sick. Its ruining the american public...
Ruining the American public? It's just music. It's not like they dug up John Lennon's body and used his arms to make beats.
You do realize that one of the reasons the Beatles where so popular was because they weren't afraid to try something new and mix different kinds of music?
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DiDi Dissuer
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StrangeLove
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lessthanjakejohn
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lessthanjakejohn
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lessthanjakejohn
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Megaseth wrote:i agree with you Pills. its like Puff Titty using the background for Kashmir and trying to pass it off as good. or when they did that horrible remake of that police song.i hate when people take a good song, try to remix it with **** and pass it off as good.
True, but as bad as that was to those of us that consider Kashmir in the top fifth of what led zep has done, Page even played it for him live on SNL.
In this case, the Beatles aren't doing this willingly.
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Touchdown038
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P. Diddy is another story entirely. Here's what he does:
Drives around in his insanely nice rides and listens to the radio. When he hears something he likes, he calls his people and says, "Hey go buy me this beat so I can make some money off of it too."
That guy is what's wrong w/ music today, though I love ONE line from his song "Bad Boy for Life"
..."I'm the definition of half-man, half-drugs..."
Nick
Drives around in his insanely nice rides and listens to the radio. When he hears something he likes, he calls his people and says, "Hey go buy me this beat so I can make some money off of it too."
That guy is what's wrong w/ music today, though I love ONE line from his song "Bad Boy for Life"
..."I'm the definition of half-man, half-drugs..."
Nick
Because thats all new rap is. recycled annoying beats, bad lyrics about the same thing, and using other hits. dont get me wrong, i really like old hip-hop, and i think the beastie boys rock, but im really annoyed at how talentless most of the hip-hop guys are today. but we also know OutKast kicks all their asses.
Very little art in today's pop music industry. Musicianship? What the hell is that worth these days? Zip. Used to be that musicians were actually musicians. Now the beat is played on a machine, the hooks are ripped off from recordings made by actual musicians, the melody is limited to some chick endlessly repeating the same two bar phrase. I say the emporer wears no clothes.
It all began to go south in the 50s when bean counters took over the music biz and started talking about moving units (mass production). The lowest common denominator became the target (mass distribution).
Very little art in the art form today.
It all began to go south in the 50s when bean counters took over the music biz and started talking about moving units (mass production). The lowest common denominator became the target (mass distribution).
Very little art in the art form today.
A couple things, first Jay-Z has nothing to do with this (nor do the beatles), The Grey Album is a bootleg made by DJ Danger Mouse. The rights to the songs were not bought, and therefore a cease and desist was ordered.
Further I would argue that the concept of this album was pure art. It had no intent of being commercial, it was one man with an idea - and I think an artistic one at that, mixing two genres connected only by the names of the two albums (and I guess by alot of crappy producers biting beats today, but I don't think that that was his inspiration at all). I've listned to it, and it took a few times, but its grown on me. The production is fairly intricate, though the SQ may be lacking some. It isn't just straight taking beats and palcing them behind Jzy-Z's lyrics.
Bottom line is music is subjective. Someone mentioned Beethoven; he was a master of classical composition, but many today cannot appreciate his music of classical in general. I would not compare this to Beethoven, but it's music - some will appreciate the art of it, some won't. Rolling Stone seems to think there's something to it. So I would say listen to it - listen to the production - decide for yourself.
Further I would argue that the concept of this album was pure art. It had no intent of being commercial, it was one man with an idea - and I think an artistic one at that, mixing two genres connected only by the names of the two albums (and I guess by alot of crappy producers biting beats today, but I don't think that that was his inspiration at all). I've listned to it, and it took a few times, but its grown on me. The production is fairly intricate, though the SQ may be lacking some. It isn't just straight taking beats and palcing them behind Jzy-Z's lyrics.
Bottom line is music is subjective. Someone mentioned Beethoven; he was a master of classical composition, but many today cannot appreciate his music of classical in general. I would not compare this to Beethoven, but it's music - some will appreciate the art of it, some won't. Rolling Stone seems to think there's something to it. So I would say listen to it - listen to the production - decide for yourself.
Beethoven changed the form of music from "Classical" compostion to "Romantic" composition. That most people don't know this is part and parcel of the problem with today's miserable scene: too little knowledge.
In fact, what Jay-Z attempted is something that composers have always done which is to take folk music and make art out of it. The difference is that composers didn't steal their themes and motifs. Cease and desist? How about cut out the crap?
We used to say, "If it was easy, everyone would do it." Now it is easy so everyone is doing it. Beethoven's contributions are still with us after 200 years. Jay-Z who?
You're right though, music like all arts is subjective. However, there's just not much subject any more and that's an objective observation.
In fact, what Jay-Z attempted is something that composers have always done which is to take folk music and make art out of it. The difference is that composers didn't steal their themes and motifs. Cease and desist? How about cut out the crap?
We used to say, "If it was easy, everyone would do it." Now it is easy so everyone is doing it. Beethoven's contributions are still with us after 200 years. Jay-Z who?
You're right though, music like all arts is subjective. However, there's just not much subject any more and that's an objective observation.
VimyJ wrote:Beethoven changed the form of music from "Classical" compostion to "Romantic" composition. That most people don't know this is part and parcel of the problem with today's miserable scene: too little knowledge.
In fact, what Jay-Z attempted is something that composers have always done which is to take folk music and make art out of it. The difference is that composers didn't steal their themes and motifs. Cease and desist? How about cut out the crap?
We used to say, "If it was easy, everyone would do it." Now it is easy so everyone is doing it. Beethoven's contributions are still with us after 200 years. Jay-Z who?
You're right though, music like all arts is subjective. However, there's just not much subject any more and that's an objective observation.
Mike, you have missed most of my point (with the excpetion of the subjectivity part). First, I used classical in a generic sense - maybe improperly by your standards, but I am not an musical historian, I cannot tell you the difference in Romantic and Baroque. Further, I understand that you are a musician and that this is something that is personal to you.
Here's the crux of my point: First, this album was not compiled by Jay-Z and is not a commercial endeavor. It was put together by DJ Danger Mouse, with I beleive an artistic notion in mind.
You say its simple, I would whole heartedly disagree. Musical production at this level - yes even sampling - is complicated. You see it as a base form, I would argue you may be a music snob with your mind closed to the burgeoning forms of electronic music (it sort of harkens back to the familiar refrain "what's with these kids and their rock and roll music"). Perhaps you should listen to the album - if then you cannot appreciate the composotion and synthesis involved, that's your prerogative.
By the way, artists take other people's works and combine them all the time, it's called a collage.
Sampling ain't complicated compared to performance. Nothing to it. I know what goes into it and how to do it. That's why every no talent (and I mean musically talented) bum is doing it. They may have talents in other areas like self promotion or suppression of ethics that are the main talents required in the pop industry.
I'm no musical snob. I just have high standards and ripping stuff off real musicians is the lazy no talent way to make a buck off suckers who know no better. But that's the way it is with so much of everything in the early 21st century.
I would humbly suggest that you take a music appreciation course. You will be amazed. I took an elective class called "Art of the Film." Totally changed the way I appreciate movies. Now when I see a good movie, I can really understand the genius behind it. I studied music so I can see the hucksterism is today's pop industry.
Speaking of collages, one of the most interesting collages I've ever heard happened one night in Detroit. We were staying at a hotel downtown and there was a black nightclub letting out across the street. The parking lot was next to the hotel and all the guys were getting in their cars and cranking the tunes. A hundred loud stereos, each cranking some hip hop or rap tune. The sound was wild! The slighty different tempos running in and out of phase (all rap and hip hop are pretty much in the same tempo range because it's all "dance" music). Wish I had a DAT recorder with me that night.
The only thing I could compare it to are some of those old National Geographic documentaries from old Africa showing dozens or scores of players each providing a rhythm and the result being these incredibly sophisticated polyrhythms.
Hey, my standards are high. That's why I drive an Infiniti and not a Cavalier.
I'm no musical snob. I just have high standards and ripping stuff off real musicians is the lazy no talent way to make a buck off suckers who know no better. But that's the way it is with so much of everything in the early 21st century.
I would humbly suggest that you take a music appreciation course. You will be amazed. I took an elective class called "Art of the Film." Totally changed the way I appreciate movies. Now when I see a good movie, I can really understand the genius behind it. I studied music so I can see the hucksterism is today's pop industry.
Speaking of collages, one of the most interesting collages I've ever heard happened one night in Detroit. We were staying at a hotel downtown and there was a black nightclub letting out across the street. The parking lot was next to the hotel and all the guys were getting in their cars and cranking the tunes. A hundred loud stereos, each cranking some hip hop or rap tune. The sound was wild! The slighty different tempos running in and out of phase (all rap and hip hop are pretty much in the same tempo range because it's all "dance" music). Wish I had a DAT recorder with me that night.
The only thing I could compare it to are some of those old National Geographic documentaries from old Africa showing dozens or scores of players each providing a rhythm and the result being these incredibly sophisticated polyrhythms.
Hey, my standards are high. That's why I drive an Infiniti and not a Cavalier.
Mike,
I understand your appreciation for music - I do wish I had taken a music or film appreciation class in undergrad, but you only have 120 credits, and I do not regret any or the courses that I did take. That said, I still think that you are failing to appretiate the artistry in making good electronic music. Many of the same qualities as traditional composition. The ultimate product is the testament, the synthesis and flow of different elements. Your last comment is proof that you can appretiate that in any form. I think we may be on different pages. I am not talking about Puff Daddy, I'm talking about some phenomenal turntablists and producers who blend, transform, overlay, and yes sample to some extent (but as part of a composition). I hate pop, mass appeal producing - but even in the mainstream there are some great artists (and I don't feel I use the term loosely). William Orbit, Timbaland, DJ Krush, Kanye West....the list goes on.
By the way I love all music, I have albums from John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Al Greene, to classical compilations, Pink Floyd and Tom Petty, Radio Head, Portishead to Outkast and Mobb Deep to Paul Oakenfold.
I understand your appreciation for music - I do wish I had taken a music or film appreciation class in undergrad, but you only have 120 credits, and I do not regret any or the courses that I did take. That said, I still think that you are failing to appretiate the artistry in making good electronic music. Many of the same qualities as traditional composition. The ultimate product is the testament, the synthesis and flow of different elements. Your last comment is proof that you can appretiate that in any form. I think we may be on different pages. I am not talking about Puff Daddy, I'm talking about some phenomenal turntablists and producers who blend, transform, overlay, and yes sample to some extent (but as part of a composition). I hate pop, mass appeal producing - but even in the mainstream there are some great artists (and I don't feel I use the term loosely). William Orbit, Timbaland, DJ Krush, Kanye West....the list goes on.
By the way I love all music, I have albums from John Coltrane, Charlie Parker, Al Greene, to classical compilations, Pink Floyd and Tom Petty, Radio Head, Portishead to Outkast and Mobb Deep to Paul Oakenfold.
Let me mention three disc I have that are very non-traditional, mixing genres, that I appretiate on the same level as The Grey Album (and you might):
1) London Symphany Orchestra Plays the Music of Pink Floyd (self explanatory)
2) DJ Krush and Toshinori Kondo - Ki -Oku (jazz trumpter playing over the beats of a world renonwned tuntablist)
3) William Orbit - Pieces in a Modern Style - (electronic recreations of classic pieces)
1) London Symphany Orchestra Plays the Music of Pink Floyd (self explanatory)
2) DJ Krush and Toshinori Kondo - Ki -Oku (jazz trumpter playing over the beats of a world renonwned tuntablist)
3) William Orbit - Pieces in a Modern Style - (electronic recreations of classic pieces)
rydwhite wrote:Now, what the hell has happened to the Beastie Boys? I haven't heard anything new from them in awhile.
I am a big fan of the Beasties, but unfortunately, their last single was the political commentary "In a World Gone Mad", featuring the lines:
George Bush, you're looking like Zoolander, trying to act tough for the camera
Now don't get us wrong 'cause we love AmericaBut that's no reason to get hysterica
Due to such a bad reception, they postponed their new album.
DAMN! i just typed up this big nice post, and it didnt send. oh well. i'll try to repeat. i was mentioning electronica and industrial stuff. im a big fan of KMFDM and VNV Nation, as well as the Prodigy. true a lot of these guys use synthisized beats, but the way they use them and arrange them is incredible. rap and hip-hop uses something similar, but it seems they just put the sample on a loop and in the studio make everything sound good. i give hip-hop/rap artists credit when they deserve it, but sadly, most of the good ones are gone, or have sold out. now its just what sells, as with most music. yeah, some people say its how they feel or where they stand on something, but it sounds just like every other song out there. hmm, i wonder why? if it sells, why try to get my point across the other way.
Let me put it this way, let's have a competition between me and your most revered turntablist. The object of the competition is to learn the other's axe. I could learn enough in a week to fool most of the people. The turntablist well, he might be good enough to make the local middle school band if he were really talented.
Rap/Hip Hop are derivative forms. The tempo and basic grove is generally machine generated and the tones are generally sampled sounds created by others. Chord progressions? Faggedaboudit. Ensemble? What's that? Pull the plug and there's nothing.
It is much easier to sample the sounds of real players than to make them yourself. Don't need to pay a drummer if you have the machine. Sit in the studio trial and erroring until something plausible results.
It's a "Brave New World".
This "new world" is wierd. I read a snippet of a book about the glory days of Motown. All the magazine critics were wondering what it was that made that place such an amzing hit factory. What is the room acoustics? Was it the food? etc. etc. etc. Never once was mentioned that maybe it was the musicians.
My wife (a violinist) has played on several Hip Hop sessions. They like to get a string pad for some of the stuff. Don't often see horn players because they sample that material. She says the sessions are always completely disorganized. The producers have little idea of what they want or how to get it. The sessions always start late and end late (this means overtime which is OK). Not saying this is alwas the case but generally this is how these things are produced.
BTW, Emerson, Lake and Palmer played Mussorsky.
I played a concert of Guess Who hits arranged for orchestra 20 years ago. (Burton Cummings really has a talent for melody)
I play along with the stereo frequently. There is a form called Acid Jazz.
It's cool that you have developed an appreciation of this derivitive form of poetry. And that's what it is because it came from the Raggea "Dub Poets". Rhyme and meter is poetry. There is very little actual music in Rap or Hip Hop. But it is what it is. There is so much else out there that is more sophisticated and inspiring at least to me.
Take a music appreciation course at your local Community College. If you have a good prof, it will one of the best things you will ever do.
Rap/Hip Hop are derivative forms. The tempo and basic grove is generally machine generated and the tones are generally sampled sounds created by others. Chord progressions? Faggedaboudit. Ensemble? What's that? Pull the plug and there's nothing.
It is much easier to sample the sounds of real players than to make them yourself. Don't need to pay a drummer if you have the machine. Sit in the studio trial and erroring until something plausible results.
It's a "Brave New World".
This "new world" is wierd. I read a snippet of a book about the glory days of Motown. All the magazine critics were wondering what it was that made that place such an amzing hit factory. What is the room acoustics? Was it the food? etc. etc. etc. Never once was mentioned that maybe it was the musicians.
My wife (a violinist) has played on several Hip Hop sessions. They like to get a string pad for some of the stuff. Don't often see horn players because they sample that material. She says the sessions are always completely disorganized. The producers have little idea of what they want or how to get it. The sessions always start late and end late (this means overtime which is OK). Not saying this is alwas the case but generally this is how these things are produced.
BTW, Emerson, Lake and Palmer played Mussorsky.
I played a concert of Guess Who hits arranged for orchestra 20 years ago. (Burton Cummings really has a talent for melody)
I play along with the stereo frequently. There is a form called Acid Jazz.
It's cool that you have developed an appreciation of this derivitive form of poetry. And that's what it is because it came from the Raggea "Dub Poets". Rhyme and meter is poetry. There is very little actual music in Rap or Hip Hop. But it is what it is. There is so much else out there that is more sophisticated and inspiring at least to me.
Take a music appreciation course at your local Community College. If you have a good prof, it will one of the best things you will ever do.
blink0r wrote:WHY CAN'T HIP HOP ARTISTS WRITE THEIR OWN MUSIC INSTEAD OF STEALING EVERYONE ELSES!?!?
Artists? Your being too generous. I just listened to about 20 seconds of one of those songs, it was attrocious, it was sickening, it was NOT music. Every once in a great while I hear some "hip hop" that is decent but for the most part, it all just sounds the same.
Man, you are a music snob Mike 
... I think you patently underestimate the artistry involved in making an electronic track sound good - if it were as easy as you assert then there would not be a distinct and recognized hierarchy of world class producers/arrangers in electronic genres. Alas, subjectivity offers no ground on which to battle....so I'm out, for now...
"Music is a beautiful opiate, if you don't take it too seriously. "
... I think you patently underestimate the artistry involved in making an electronic track sound good - if it were as easy as you assert then there would not be a distinct and recognized hierarchy of world class producers/arrangers in electronic genres. Alas, subjectivity offers no ground on which to battle....so I'm out, for now..."Music is a beautiful opiate, if you don't take it too seriously. "