The Grey Album???

[VimyJ]

Singing is sung. Vocal sounds that are not sung can't be called singing by definition. A melody would be an arrangement of a series of tones played or sung to form a tune. A melody with words is called a song. A melody with out words is called a tune. There are very few melodies from a rap that can be whistled or hummed. Therefore, there are few tunes by logical extension.

Harmony is created by the juxtapositon of one pitch against another utlizing the tensions and/or lack of tensions bewteen the tones. There are no harmonized raps that I have ever heard. In order to harmonize a rap, the rap would have to consist of definite pitches that would have to sustained so that harmonizing tones could be contrasted against it. However, by doing that the rap would become a song.

Tchiakovsky was an absolute master of creating different timbres in his understanding of the sound of various instruments and using them in combinations to make a timbre that would otherwise not exist. Samplers and/or scratchers might be said to creat some novel timbers but they are not actually creating the pitches. Manipulating them perhaps.

Rapping is the main goal of a rap. Take away the drum machine and the secondary sound effects and the rap remains intact.

Melody is the primary aim of music. Take away the melody and the music is greatly compromised. Have the melody remain and take away the harmony and the tune would remain intact.

Rhythm is common to both music and poetry. Add a dance beat/meter to poetry and you have rapping as we currently know it.

Rap could be called poetry with some elements of a musical accompaniment but the rap clearly remains the primary goal and the musical elements are clearly secondary. Drum machines for rhythm, samples for instrumentals and turntablists (using other's tones, timbres, melodies, harmonies, etc.) for primarily rhythmic effect.

[MaineExport]

There are no harmonized raps that I have ever heard. In order to harmonize a rap, the rap would have to consist of definite pitches that would have to sustained so that harmonizing tones could be contrasted against it. However, by doing that the rap would become a song.

Bone Thugs, they Rap with 3 and 4 part harmonies... kind of beautiful in a strange way. Although... as you pointed out... it starts to become more of a percussive singing than it is a rap.... and a couple 311 numbers have rap in harmony.

[InstantRice]

essa martinez in 311 wouldn't be a musician by his definition either. also jurassic 5, the pharcyde (to a much less extent), and the beasties also harmonize. Thats just off the top of my head cause i'm listening to quality control(J5) right now

[jdmfreak]

Still...Vimy I wanna know what other deaths, besides the ones previously listed, do you know about?

Now here's my $.02. As a person that grew up in NYC, I know many of the hardships that these rappers face. I remember some1 posting about how Jay Z could find another way of making money. Sometimes that is not an option. Ive seen where he grew up and the place is really making a turn for the better, but back then it was a lot worse. Yea what he did was illegal, but if you listen to his very first album, you would be able to see how bad the times really were. With all the drug money he made, he was still poor because a lot of that money went to his mother, a single parent, and siblings. He first started making honest money when he started rapping. The reason for this is the fact that he was good and was able to make quality CDs without ever writing a single word down. Now its sad to see him go, but his time is up.

Now the other rappers out there, like P Diddy, are just *****es to me and I really dont give them the time of day. But there are a few other talented musicians out there like Outkast and Black Eye Peas. Outkast's music is very different than most of the music you hear, but its still good to listen to. They give you a little bit of old school mixed with new school and it often sounds good. And get this...They can actually play a few instruments and actually do so in some songs and I like them for that. As a black guy I offended when people like you because you are basically saying that the music a majority of my culture listens to and enjoys isnt really music. You have your opinion and thats fine, but an opinion is not a fact. Its just what you think. A fact is that every different kind of music that you dont consider real music, is considered real music to other people. We come from totally different backgrounds, so it isnt expected that our opinions of different kinds of music would be the same. You like your music and I like mine. Why cant it just be left like that? Its is so childish to argue over which music better. It just another argument that has no real answer or soultion.

Now as far as listening to different genres of music, I dont just listen to rap/hip hop/ r&b. I make sure I expand my horizons. Im not a big fan of bands, symphonies, and orchestras, but I appreciate what they do and I actually like it to a certain extent. My main source for listening to different bands is, sad to say, MTV2 and other genres such as classical music through the radio or if a teacher is playing it in class. I even played the cello for a short time and I liked it, but it wasnt something I wanted to devote my time to. I may be 17 and younger than your years of "experience", but at least Im not as close minded as you when it comes to music or maybe anything else.

Damn that was long. Im to tired to make sure if that made any sense, but Im quite sure it did.

[VimyJ]

You did make sense and expressed yourself very well. I simply maintain that the "art" of music has diminished because in rap there really isn't that much music making involved.

I don't care to much for rap because I have always been a "melody man". Never cared too much for lyrics and always considered them secondary. Take the lyrics from rap and there just isn't much there. That is my entire point.

When rappers (and I don't give a crap what color they are) steal music from musicians because they need some actual tones, harmony, riffs, licks, etc. then I get pissed because everyone thinks these guys are musicians. They are poets. Rap is what it is. You (and I don't mean you personally) like it? Knock yourself out.

Real music is a unifier. I am colour blind. When someone shows up on a gig, all we care about is can they play. If you're purple with three eyes and can do the job, then you are in and get instant respect because real players know what it takes to be able to do that. We appreciate the beauty and the work and talent it takes to make the beauty. That's why we never murder each other. And therein lies the difference: Respect.

[BuLLeTdrift]

I don't care to much for rap because I have always been a "melody man".

if you haven't already checked out Nas' "the lost tapes" album you should. i think you'll find some nice melodies in there. i listen to it almost every night.

jdmfreak03,you expressed yourself so damn good. i give you mad props on that. writting is the only way i can get all my feelings out (when i pour my heart into it). i just wanted to complement your writing skills. 1

[StrangeLove]

You did make sense and expressed yourself very well. I simply maintain that the "art" of music has diminished because in rap there really isn't that much music making involved.

I don't care to much for rap because I have always been a "melody man". Never cared too much for lyrics and always considered them secondary. Take the lyrics from rap and there just isn't much there. That is my entire point.

When rappers (and I don't give a crap what color they are) steal music from musicians because they need some actual tones, harmony, riffs, licks, etc. then I get pissed because everyone thinks these guys are musicians. They are poets. Rap is what it is. You (and I don't mean you personally) like it? Knock yourself out.

Real music is a unifier. I am colour blind. When someone shows up on a gig, all we care about is can they play. If you're purple with three eyes and can do the job, then you are in and get instant respect because real players know what it takes to be able to do that. We appreciate the beauty and the work and talent it takes to make the beauty. That's why we never murder each other. And therein lies the difference: Respect.

Exactly, I couldn't of said it better...

[NY94J30]

I can't beleive this thread is still going. I think the bottom line is that music is an expression not a science. When you break accoustics and composition down to a science you miss the trees for the forest.

I won't deny that there's something to that, though it is not even close to the end all, be all (as I said, forest, tress...) But its like the science of aesthics. Ascribing proprtions and symmetry to an object will never explain the complexity of subjectivity.

I can see both ends of the spectrum. But ultiimately, music is amongst the most subjective of things. I see the point Mike makes as to originality, though I feel that if you take something and make it you own, there's something to that - compensation aside (think collages).

[C-Kwik]

You did make sense and expressed yourself very well. I simply maintain that the "art" of music has diminished because in rap there really isn't that much music making involved.

I don't care to much for rap because I have always been a "melody man". Never cared too much for lyrics and always considered them secondary. Take the lyrics from rap and there just isn't much there. That is my entire point.

When rappers (and I don't give a crap what color they are) steal music from musicians because they need some actual tones, harmony, riffs, licks, etc. then I get pissed because everyone thinks these guys are musicians. They are poets. Rap is what it is. You (and I don't mean you personally) like it? Knock yourself out.

Real music is a unifier. I am colour blind. When someone shows up on a gig, all we care about is can they play. If you're purple with three eyes and can do the job, then you are in and get instant respect because real players know what it takes to be able to do that. We appreciate the beauty and the work and talent it takes to make the beauty. That's why we never murder each other. And therein lies the difference: Respect.

I think there is a difference between being a composer and being a musician(by this I am referring to those who play instruments) and even being a singer. You seem to be defining musicans by their ability to compose music. Not all musicians can do this. Frankly, I'd say only a small percentage of those who play an instrument, sing or even rap can do this well. And the conversely, some good composers may not have a really great ability to play an instrument, or sing, or rap. And certainly, there is an appreciable respect for those that do a variety of things well, but that goes without saying in any occupation or hobby.

It sould like you don't have much of a thing for vocal melodies. That's fine. That's just your taste. But the voice is still an instrument. Even as a rap. You limit rap to just poetry, but poetry in it's nature is quite musical. It has rythym, which tends to be quite important in music as I understand it. It can have tone, but sometimes can have a very monotnous tone to it. I tend to class rap to singing like percussion to intruments. The range and variety of tones in percussion is limited, but even by itself, percussion can be used to make some really good music. I hold the same true for rap. Just because it's different, doesn't make it bad or worse.

As far as music becoming easier to make, I think this is trend we see in every industry. Technology helps us do things. But that's no fault of the musicians. I'm sure technology has helped make even traditional instruments made today sound better. Change is not always bad my friend.

Lastly, as far as musicians giving each other respect, it's not a concept foreign to rappers. The most controvertial feud in rap was between Notorious BIG and 2-Pac. Before their feud, they used to hang out and rap together. Kind of like a jam session. While I can only comment on the start of their feud from what the media says, it was from Notorious BIG stealing some material from 2-Pac. But it didn't really escalate until 2-Pac suspected Notorious BIG of setting him up to be shot under the disguise of robbery. But this type of behavior really stems not from the music, but from the lifestyle they lived even well before they became famous as artists. The lyrics tend to perpetuate this quite a bit, but music is an extension of one's own self. Most artist tend to add personal things to them in their work. This goes for any kind of art. People who enjoy the story told or relate to it will likely listen to it. And it's not like these rappers are killing people for not listening to their music or not making music with them. Music doesn't make the people. People make the music. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Let's not blame rap for the actions of people.

[VimyJ]

You seem to be defining musicans by their ability to compose music.

Nope. Not at all.

Quote »It sould like you don't have much of a thing for vocal melodies.[/quote]I have a thing for melodies and harmonies. Put words to a melody and you have a song. Take the words from a song and the melody remains. Quote » Guns don't kill people. People kill people. [/quote]

:rolleyes

People who own guns are more likely to kill people.

You have to read some of my previous posts on this thread. I discuss the poetry aspect in some detail.

[lessthanjakejohn]

Quote »People who own guns are more likely to kill people.[/quote]Yes, you do have to have possesion of a gun to kill someone [with a gun].

Perhaps you could explain that better, in it self, "People who own guns are more likely to kill people." means nothing.

[MaineExport]

I tend to class rap to singing like percussion to intruments. The range and variety of tones in percussion is limited, but even by itself, percussion can be used to make some really good music.

That's a BIG stretch...

For starters... percussion equipment is considered an instrument. But more importantly, a percussionist (usually) has four implements of variable input (four limbs with infinite levels of force and "touch"). The typical brass player has one variable input (airflow and vibration through the mouthpiece) and three positive or negative inputs (the keys). A woodwind player again has only one variable input, and between 8 and 10 positive or negative inputs. Unless a drummer is using an archaic electronic drum kit.. there are NO mechanical (+) or (-) inputs.

What is the importance of a variable input you ask?... that is where art meets mechanics. That is where "feel", "touch", and "finesse" come from. Drummers (especially Jazz drummers not reading from sheet music) are ALL art and interpretation.... there is so much beautiful subtlety to be heard... (that's why we use "charts" not sheet music)

I would agree that there is usually less tonality associated with percussion... but it is CERTAINLY an instrument... and at least as much of an art as any other instrument.

[C-Kwik]

Nope. Not at all.

I have a thing for melodies and harmonies. Put words to a melody and you have a song. Take the words from a song and the melody remains.

:rolleyes

People who own guns are more likely to kill people.

You have to read some of my previous posts on this thread. I discuss the poetry aspect in some detail.

I only said it seems that way.

Songs aren't always about melodies. I can listen to a guy solo on a set of drums if he's good. Not exactly melodic. But I still consider it music.

I'd say people who are willing to kill people are more likely to own guns. Not to say that people who own guns all want to kill people or that people who are willing to kill people all own guns. They are still exclusive of each other. I know plenty of people who own guns, and they are not going to go out looking to kill someone. If someone breaks into their house, it might be a different story. But this is getting away from the point. People who might kill don't make any less of a musician.

[C-Kwik]

That's a BIG stretch...

For starters... percussion equipment is considered an instrument. But more importantly, a percussionist (usually) has four implements of variable input (four limbs with infinite levels of force and "touch"). The typical brass player has one variable input (airflow and vibration through the mouthpiece) and three positive or negative inputs (the keys). A woodwind player again has only one variable input, and between 8 and 10 positive or negative inputs. Unless a drummer is using an archaic electronic drum kit.. there are NO mechanical (+) or (-) inputs.

What is the importance of a variable input you ask?... that is where art meets mechanics. That is where "feel", "touch", and "finesse" come from. Drummers (especially Jazz drummers not reading from sheet music) are ALL art and interpretation.... there is so much beautiful subtlety to be heard... (that's why we use "charts" not sheet music)

I would agree that there is usually less tonality associated with percussion... but it is CERTAINLY an instrument... and at least as much of an art as any other instrument.

It was more of an analogy than a direct comparison. Not from a perspective of inputs and outputs, but of the listening experience.

It sounds like you play the drums from the way you talk. I wasn't saying that the drums are not an instrument so I 'm hoping you didn't get that impression. I'm not sure if you thought that I meant it that way.

[MaineExport]

I think I just objected to the "range and variety" comment. My post was intended to illustrate that the range and variety of "sound" is at least as large with percussion as it is with any wind instrument.

But I do entirely agree with the notion that the "tonality" of percussion in comparison to wind instruments is similar to the comparison of the same between rap and singing.

Rap is more percussive and less tonal than singing...Drums are more percussive and less tonal than "instruments".

Oh yeah... and I do play drums primarily. I like to think I can play piano, guitar, bass, sax, and trumpet... but I am certainly not as proficient with those.

[InstantRice]

[quote=" Guns don't kill people, people kill people.[/quote]

Guns don't kill people GLASSJAW kills people.sorry it was just the perfect chance to say that.

this thread needs to die.

[VimyJ]

By definition, songs have words. Melodies or tunes exist without words. Add words to a melody and a song is created.

At one time I used to think drums weren't capable of melodic playing. That is until I worked with some really great drummers. A good drum set player knows the pitches of his drums and play and even tune them accordingly. Additionally, even on the most basic kit (which IMHO is all a good drummer really needs) there are many tonal and timberal decisions to be made. Entire books have been written about Hi-hat techniques alone. Mallets, brushes, sticks, sticks reversed, cymbal stands, cymbal crowns, the sides of the drum, the rims, etc., are all options for a drummer to create melodic playing. Granted, the range of pitches is more limited than a chromatic instrument but pitch and timbre manipulations are legitimate drum kit techniques. Therefore, "melodic" playing is possible.

Then there are the pitched percussion instruments like the vibes and, of course, the piano.

What's the definition of perfect pitch?

Tossing an accordian into a dumpster without hitting the sides.