The Grey Album???

[InstantRice]

"God, if you can call yourself a fan of music and, at the same time, forgo an entire genre... then you're not a fan of music."

Awesome fiznat.

Yeah i try to explain that to my friends all the time. I listen to everything from mos def to thrice.

Sampling really was an artform before people who think it's out and out stealing and don't realize its a musical mosaic thats weaving samples and beats together to make music started suing people. In particular when biz markie was sued it became to expensive to make a multilayered album (pauls boutique) that uses samples and beats in such a way that it only sounds remotely like any of the music used. now mainstream artists like puff daddy just outright steal music and thats because people smoothered this form of music instead of letting it flourish into something great. Multilayered samples still go on in hip-hop but its doesn't in mainstream music(which sucks anyway). It can still be seen in del the funky homosapien, doc octagon and other **** most people havent heard of. As far as the Jay-z/beetles thing goes i'm not a fan of either one of them but if an artist get the rights from another artist to use their music (not in this case) then both should be held responsible for the crap that springs forth.

[Megaseth]

I could really go for some soma right now....

that one was for you Mike, cause i'm picking up on the Huxley allusion.

[MaineExport]

The saga is ending. It takes hard work and dedication to achieve. Its the easy way out now. Appeal to the lowest common denominator.

As the song says, "You never know what you've got 'til it's gone."

It's going. The long line from Palestrina to Coletrane. It's fading away never to return. A "Brave New World" awaits. Cost effective and profitable. And boring.

It's precisely that kind of fatalistic attitude amongst music educators that is driving people away from music.

To hear you say that you are encouraging potentially successful STUDENTS of music to pursue other avenues INSTEAD of music, that is appalling. Yes, a certain measure of reality and always having a contingency plan is healthy... but to drive talented people away from their art, just because YOUR view of the future of their art is bleak... that is ego beyond belief.

It may be hard or darn near impossible to make a living with music in our time, but how can you drive talented musicians away from the art... and in the same breath complain about the state of music.

This is why the average ordinary "musicians" with some talent in one area or another SHOULD NOT BE educators. Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that there are far too few qualified educators to teach all of the talented students out there. So, we have to rely on people with a narrow view and a stout ego to teach private lessons.

My old man is a professional music educator AND musician. He is the Fine Arts Supervisor for the local city school system. This is a struggle people like him have been dealing with for years. It's a shame to see that the very people that are so involved in the world of music are the same ones destroying it.

[fiznat]

Well said, maine. My father is a music teacher as well, both at the high school and college level. I hear the EXACT same thing from him whenever I go home to visit my family...

VimyJ I appreciate your position, but you're definetly being a little close minded.. which is pretty much the WORST thing you can do as a musician.

[VimyJ]

It's precisely that kind of fatalistic attitude amongst music educators that is driving people away from music.

To hear you say that you are encouraging potentially successful STUDENTS of music to pursue other avenues INSTEAD of music, that is appalling. Yes, a certain measure of reality and always having a contingency plan is healthy... but to drive talented people away from their art, just because YOUR view of the future of their art is bleak... that is ego beyond belief.

It may be hard or darn near impossible to make a living with music in our time, but how can you drive talented musicians away from the art... and in the same breath complain about the state of music.

This is why the average ordinary "musicians" with some talent in one area or another SHOULD NOT BE educators. Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that there are far too few qualified educators to teach all of the talented students out there. So, we have to rely on people with a narrow view and a stout ego to teach private lessons.

My old man is a professional music educator AND musician. He is the Fine Arts Supervisor for the local city school system. This is a struggle people like him have been dealing with for years. It's a shame to see that the very people that are so involved in the world of music are the same ones destroying it.

Maine, you make me laugh. My attitude is driving people away from music? Right. Every major symphony orchestra is the country is in some sort of financial trouble. There are very few live music clubs left. In CA the trend for the last 20 years is for the club owners to get paid by the bands! This is spreading all over nowadays. How many school music programs have been scrapped by cost conscious conservatives looking to cut out the fluff? Thousands. Ever heard of the "Save the Music" program? The salsa scene is pratically dead in Chicago. It used to be great. Performing arts groups are all on the ropes. The studio scene has dropped by 90% and many of the recording studios have gone out of business.

Then you cast veiled aspertions on my talent. Your dear old dad never paid the mortgage performing music. Your dad may be cheesed at "ordinary musicians" but they are the guys on the front lines. We have seen what is happening in the real world. Your dad's programs are not losing students because of me and my collegues, he is losing students because a growing amount of people don't give a crap about formal music education. A one week course in sampling technology is all that is necessary. The hard work has already been done. Only need to steal it from its creators.

As someone directly in touch with the music profession, I would take no crap from your school teacher father about professional musicians being bad for students. We are the players. If your dad was a player, he wouldn't be teaching school. In my experience, the high school teacher who can actually play is the exception and definitely not the rule.

I am a big proponent of music programs in the public school system. However, I will not lie to a student about music as a carreer choice that offers a decent standard of living. That used to be true but, alas, is not anymore. I feel bad for my younger colleagues. The business is just not there anymore.

I could write more but I have to go teach some of my private students now.

[VimyJ]

Fiz, you have to open your eyes. Rome is burning!

[VimyJ]

Instant, that is the extent of your horizon? Quick, describe a tritone substitution. All these frigging experts and not one could decribe a simple chord progression. Sheesh. See what I mean Maine?

Soma, baby!

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ

Maine, you make me laugh. My attitude is driving people away from music? Right.

You said it yourself Vim. YOU encourage YOUR talented students to pursue something OTHER than their music. THAT sure sounds like driving people away from music to me.

Every major symphony orchestra is the country is in some sort of financial trouble.

I'm sure they are, but this has NOTHING to do with the point that you are conveniently ignoring. You have a 100% inability to look at yourself critically. Your ego keeps you from seeing that you might be flawed.

There are very few live music clubs left.

Hey... lets go with this argument again. Got any stats to point to that might back up this argument. I don't.... but I can tell you that my personal experience has been the exact opposite of this. The two cities that I have been living in over the last 10 years have experienced a HUGE increase in live-music clubs.

How many school music programs have been scrapped by cost conscious conservatives looking to cut out the fluff? Thousands.

That's where conservatives like my "dear old dad" come in. He is a huge advocate for the funding of school music and art programs. He also happens to be a very conservative Republican... neat huh.

Ever heard of the "Save the Music" program?

Yes

The salsa scene is pratically dead in Chicago. It used to be great. Performing arts groups are all on the ropes. The studio scene has dropped by 90% and many of the recording studios have gone out of business.

Again... ignoring the point. I don't think that anybody disagrees with what you are saying in this regard. What some of us that CARE about music and musicians are saying... your attitude and the way you apply it to your "professional" teaching is irresponsible. Students come to you to learn from your talent and experience... not to be discouraged and told to think about something other than music.

Then you cast veiled aspertions on my talent.

NO... I am sure you are a very talented musician. I am casting "aspertions" (maybe you meant aspersions) on your teaching. It doesn't sound like you are a qualified educator... and if you ARE qualified and you are discouraging your students... then that is even more atrocious. Your dear old dad never paid the mortgage performing music.

Yes... actually he did. The nice thing about teaching music.. is that you are always performing as well. As a high school and college educator/administrator, plus the conductor of and PERFORMER in many local and regional ensembles... he has made a rather nice living for himself and his family.

Your dad may be cheesed at "ordinary musicians" but they are the guys on the front lines.

He is both a performer and educator... if you'd care to see his resume I'm sure I can get it for you. I would bet a weeks pay that it's FAR more extensive than most "ordinary musicians" such as yourself. I'm not trying to toot the old man's horn... but I'm sure he'd get a good chuckle out of your egotistical rantings.

We have seen what is happening in the real world. Your dad's programs are not losing students because of me and my collegues, he is losing students because a growing amount of people don't give a crap about formal music education.

Ahhh.... see HE'S not losing students.... WE are losing artists. He, just like you, teaches private lessons in his spare time... and I don't think I've ever heard him tell a student to give up on music... no matter how bad they were.

A one week course in sampling technology is all that is necessary. The hard work has already been done. Only need to steal it from its creators.

I still don't disagree with you on this point... I just think it is another form of expression and unbounded creativity... not ALWAYS stealing.

As someone directly in touch with the music profession, I would take no crap from your school teacher father about professional musicians being bad for students.

You are such a tough guy Vim! You are less in touch with the music profession than most educators. They have the view point of both ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure what I said that made you think he has any problem with professional musicians.... again... HE IS ONE! He, and most of the music education community, DOES have a problem when people that are hired to instruct, encourage, and HELP students do just the opposite and drive them from music. We are the players. If your dad was a player, he wouldn't be teaching school. In my experience, the high school teacher who can actually play is the exception and definitely not the rule.

Well... you're right... he certainly is an exceptional person. His undergrad degrees are in music education and performance. His Master's is in education and conducting. But, I have to say... nearly all of the music educators I've ever had the pleasure of working with have been professional musician in at least some capacity. The old man is certainly the exception... he is more involved than most on both ends... education and performance.

[Megaseth]

gah, too much music stuff. its been too long since i've done music stuff. chord progression is the next octave up, right? or is it the key? gah, my brain hurts. too much music stuff. and too think, i did analysis for my ac/dec class about classical musicians and i semi-understood that. and that was only a year ago.

btw, what instruments do you teach mike? i used to play basson. i was told i was rather good, but i got tired of hearing that over and over and no one ever moved me to a higher band.

[StrangeLove]

I'm not talking about p-diddy. Listen to Jay-Z's first album, and you'll hear the stories of a man on the streets selling drugs: not to look cool and "gangster," but because he needed the money to survive. Christ listen to ANY quality rapper, and you'll hear STORIES, you'll hear genuine tales of whatever it is that they're going for worded in - if they're good - extremely intriciate rap-flavored manners.

God, if you can call yourself a fan of music and, at the same time, forgo an entire genre... then you're not a fan of music.

I have no respect for him, instead of selling drugs, why not get a real ****ing job, instead of being some lowlife aiding in the destruction of fellow human beings

I have given their "genre" a chance, and it ****ing sucks. Not worth my time... If music is good, its good, genre does not matter

Hey Maine, check out the band kyuss, they are really good, too bad they broke up in '95

[VimyJ]

Mega, this is the way it works: Move to a city with an orchestra (hopefully it'll still be in business when you get there) and take a lesson(s) with one of the basson players in the orchestra. If you're good, they'll recommend you for gigs. You'll meet other players who might need a f***** on a gig and on it goes. Practice hard and play some auditions. You'll get a gig perhaps but your chops will expand greatly leading to more opportunties.

[VimyJ]

Maine, I do help my students. I have a relationship with music that you could never understand. Run some of my posts by your dad. He'll know exactly where I'm coming from.

I don't know where you're coming from but to put it in perspective I have an esteemed colleague who told me when he joined the local in 1951 there were 90 big bands working in Chicago 5 nights a week. Now there are 7 or 8 that work maybe once a month. Now that is a big band and things have changed but I defy you to list 10 clubs offering music 5 nights a week in whatever podunk town you call your own.

High school teachers make lousy professional musicians because they aren't professional musicians. They are teachers. I know a couple of guys who teach school or who have day gigs who can play well buthey are the exception. Most think they're all that. Well, they aren't.

Your dad waves a stick? Well, bully for him. The only guy in the orchestra who doesn't make a sound. Read "The Maestro Myth" sometime.

[InstantRice]

Instant, that is the extent of your horizon? Quick, describe a tritone substitution. All these frigging experts and not one could decribe a simple chord progression. Sheesh. See what I mean Maine?

Soma, baby!

I want you to comb my post very carefully, where did i say that i was an expert? But apparently you said i consider myself an expert therefor i must consider myself an expert. now i dont consider myself completely stupid but just because my level of expertise(which apparently must be off the charts now...) isn't on the level of yours doesn't my opinion and my 2 cents dont matter. dont be a pompous azz.

[Turb0wned]

i hate jay-z so much...

[InstantRice]

word^ he gives the whole genre a black eye.

[Megaseth]

nah, im not playing any more. i played with mmy middle school band and i was taught by a pretty good basson player. i did play a f***** or two, but they were a little challenging for me at that age. i wouldnt mind playing again, just for old times sake. the basson has to be one of my fav. instruments.

[MaineExport]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by VimyJ "]Maine, I do help my students. I have a relationship with music that you could never understand.

Rather presumptious of you... but that's to be expected.

I don't know where you're coming from but to put it in perspective I have an esteemed colleague who told me when he joined the local in 1951 there were 90 big bands working in Chicago 5 nights a week. Now there are 7 or 8 that work maybe once a month. Now that is a big band and things have changed but I defy you to list 10 clubs offering music 5 nights a week in whatever podunk town you call your own.

Portland, Maine and Killington, Vermont both have a very active music scene. As does Burlington, Vermont. All three cities are very supportive of music and the arts in general. Do they each have 10 clubs offering live music 5 nights a week.... I doubt it... but this isn't Chi-town. Per-capita I'd say we're doing quite well.

High school teachers make lousy professional musicians because they aren't professional musicians.

I haven't found that to be the case generally.

I know a couple of guys who teach school or who have day gigs who can play well buthey are the exception.

Agreed

Most think they're all that. Well, they aren't.

hahahaha.... sounds familiar!!!!

Your dad waves a stick? Well, bully for him. The only guy in the orchestra who doesn't make a sound.

Stick envy much? Sounds like you're grasping at straws now Vim. Implying your superiority as a mere performer, over someone who is that and much more. Oh well... have another myth... I hear the mint ones are especially yummy.

Yet another useful and mature exchange of opinions degraded into Vimy making personal attacks for no other reason than apparent insecurity. Who woulda thunk it.

[MaineExport]

dont be a pompous azz.

Haha.. he can't help it.... "he's an artist"!!:rolleyes

"ey Pinky... get off the tracks!"

[InstantRice]

^nice, i just hate it when people throw something in your face because they have more knowledge than you.

[VimyJ]

Stick envy? LMAO! Maine, you're out to lunch. Why don't you try to argue tires or fuel injectors with Q45tech. Come to the big city sometime, my boy. I don't know what league you don't play in or the league you think your Toscanini dad plays in but you know squat. You think you know. Right. You're the expert. However, it is clear you don't have a clue. A true amatuer.

Maine, you have to give your head a shake. You actually think you can lecture me about the music biz? You dad may wave a stick in front of a community orchestra and may even be good at it but don't think for a second you have more insight into the music industry than someone who is actually involved in it. For crying out loud..........

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ "]Stick envy? LMAO! Maine, you're out to lunch. Why don't you try to argue tires or fuel injectors with Q45tech. Come to the big city sometime, my boy.

Been there...

I don't know what league you don't play in or the league you think your Toscanini dad plays in but you know squat. You think you know. Right. You're the expert. However, it is clear you don't have a clue. A true amatuer.

Maine, you have to give your head a shake. You actually think you can lecture me about the music biz? You dad may wave a stick in front of a community orchestra and may even be good at it but don't think for a second you have more insight into the music industry than someone who is actually involved in it. For crying out loud..........

Geez... you really DO like yourself a lot! I've seen some pretty big egos on the flaming lib-artsy types... but this truly takes the cake. I'm not lecturing anybody on the music biz... I think your attitude towards music is PATHETIC and that argument is only strengthened by your self-loving ego trips. Your attitude does a disservice to your students and that's truly a shame.

My argument has had NOTHING to do with who is a better musician, who did this, who does that.... but apparently THAT'S the only thing you can grasp onto and throw back my way. What I am talking about is a piss poor method of teaching. Just as a student of music alone I can tell you what you are doing is wrong. I just happen to have a little more insight beyond the typical student of music.

Listen to yourself... you have gone from an honest exchange of ideas... to a ranting lunatic that is destroyed by the fact that someone might question his abilities. Are you REALLY that insecure? I've seen you lose your grip a couple of times before... but this is funny.

Now... the only argument I've set forth is about your hypocrisy. You complain about the state that music is in... the lack of talent and interest and so on. Then in your next breath you try to convince talented musicians to chose a different career path... apparently only to be motivated by how much they can earn. So what gives?

Just as with sports... the best players almost never make the best coaches. The best, most successful businessmen almost never make the best teachers. Teaching and "doing" take two completely different sets of skills and aptitudes. It is only the exceptional that can do both well. I'm sure you play your horn pretty well Vim... but your own statements show that you are not a very good teacher.

[DiDi Dissuer]

YOU KNOW WHAT.....THIS HAS REALLY GOTTEN OUT OF CONTROL, I SUGGEST WE ALL JUST MOVE AWAY FROM THIS, BECAUSE YOU KNOW WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE.........

nah nah nah nah nah, I know more than youuuuuunah nah nah nah nah nah, Let's see what you can do........nah nah nah nah nah nah, I know I am older but can I act like two

The points have been made, I don't think no one will ever agree on the direction music has taken, and expertise....at best is reallya downgrade becaue you fail to open yourself up to more learningHeck anyone can learn more and open up themselves more......As we live and As we breathe art forms will move us, will move nothing, the ying and the yang.....I will see you all around the board.........CIAO!

DiDi

[InstantRice]

well maine this sure has broken down...

[MaineExport]

well maine this sure has broken down...

It sure has... oh well.

The strength of one's argument is often evident in their choice of words. When one resorts to calling others names... such as "kid" or "boy"... it's pretty obvious their argument is getting weaker. Sort of a last ditch attempt to exert one's apparent authority.

But whatever... I'm just as guilty as the next guy for perpetuating the nonsense.

This all reminds me of a really cool little movie quote... "Your overconfidence is your weakness"

[VimyJ]

Maine, you are simply out of your league. You know nothing of my student's circumstances and as an amatuer believe you know better than me. Sheesh... You love to argue and don't ever seem to know when you've been trumped.

The art of music is suffering a real crisis currently. I know because I deal in it every friggin' day. You cite your dad as a source. It's not like I'm talking with a pier. Stop your arguing and take it from a veteran of the music business and learn a thing or two. I interact with music teachers on a regular basis so I have a handle on your slant yet you, who has no real experience, feel you can set me straight. Right.

Your little movie quote shows how little you really know about the performing arts. It looks like a shoe that fits you pretty well.

[VimyJ]

The points have been made, I don't think no one will ever agree on the direction music has taken, and expertise....at best is reallya downgrade becaue you fail to open yourself up to more learningHeck anyone can learn more and open up themselves more......DiDi

Do you even realize what you just said? An expert who fails to learn can hardly be called an expert. How would one become an expert without learning? Ignorance can only be remedied by learning. A lot of learning will make an expert. Experts by definiton have learned and the better the expert the better learner he is. Every expert knows that expertise is not a finite achievement but an ongoing quest.

Surely, you're not suggesting that the way to enlightenment is ignorance?

[InstantRice]

pissing contests are fun.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ "]You know nothing of my student's circumstances and as an amatuer believe you know better than me.

I am assuming that since you keep resorting back to the same tired argument about how professional and wonderful you are (and that you haven't figured out that argument is not even in contention)... and the fact that you keep asserting your supposed superior posture on the issue... that you have no response to the accusation of your hypocrisy.

The more you try to discredit my position, the more time you spend ignoring the issue at hand. To me... that speaks volumes of your "expertise" on the issue. :rolleyes

So, in your infinite wisdom... please explain how turning talented individuals away from music is making the music business better?

[StrangeLove]

I declare MaineExport The Winner! :bearchug

[InstantRice]

nice one maine.