The Grey Album???

[VimyJ]

I think the same is true of the sampler. They take a piece that has personal significance to them or their audience and make it "their own".

It's only their own if they purchase the rights to use the sampled material. Rights do remain in place. I can steal a car and repaint it or strip it but it reamins a stolen car.

Unforetunately, we're being dumbed down big time. Try and make a person sit in a seat for 45 minutes without them making a sound. Nigh on impossible these days. That takes concentration.

No chord progressions are even necessary if the selection only lasts 2 or (gasp!) 3 minutes. Even melody has been reduced to two measures or maybe four if it's really complicated. Rock music hasn't gone anywhere in the last 10 years. Put on MTV and the same stuff that has been going on for the last 20 years seems to be repeated over and over with the only thing being any different is the accompanying video.

Rap videos all seem to be about booty and tossing Franklins around while driving bling blinged SUVs.

Let's not even mention the Brittanys. Imagine Ella Fitzgerald in todays scene. She wouldn't stand a chance. She could only sing. They lip synch that stuff now.

There is an entire generation that has lost touch with music but they'll probably never know it. Maybe their kids will rebel and start listening to Stockhausen.

Maybe I sound like a fuddy duddy but I paid my dues and earned the right to *****. The difference, though, from the "turn down that noise, damn kids" and me is that I see the end of times. Don't get me wrong, I'd play on a hip hop session in a second but they just don't know anymore. The art is dying. It's too hard. Pratice? What's that?

BTW, I just spent two hours learning "West Side Story" and I'm about 5% done.

Don't even get me started on "sound men".

[C-Kwik]

C-Kwik, I was just making the point that your criticism of others criticism is criticism. By pointing out that others shouldn't criticize, you are guilty of criticism. It's a slippery slope.

Perhaps you are right. But my post was really to try and open people's minds to different viewpoints. I'm sure you can try to turn this argument around as well and say that they are saying what they think. However, the reason I say this is that most people who truly dislike a certain type of of music never really listened to it. I used to be quite closed-minded about what I listened to. Hell, I used to hate trance and techno. I enjoy it quite a bit now. People just need to loosen up. There is a world of art that they may be missing. And I'll bet there are many in here that do enjoy music that they say they don't just because of what others might think. I'll bet we have some closet N'sync fans in here.

But I think if you see the intent of my post, you'll see I wasn't trying to critisize as much as I was trying to get people to be more open-minded. I would hope you would appreciate that more than anyone else, seeing as how you seem to be so critical of how the world has declined musically.

[VimyJ]

My entire point is that there is a world of true art out there that is entirely forgotten. Stuff that was made by genius. All going away. Trance? Is that some form of mimimalism? Techo? Guys with synthesizers repeating the same stuff over and over? I like like meat with my potatoes. Too many carbs make you fat.

[C-Kwik]

It's only their own if they purchase the rights to use the sampled material. Rights do remain in place. I can steal a car and repaint it or strip it but it reamins a stolen car.

Unforetunately, we're being dumbed down big time. Try and make a person sit in a seat for 45 minutes without them making a sound. Nigh on impossible these days. That takes concentration.

No chord progressions are even necessary if the selection only lasts 2 or (gasp!) 3 minutes. Even melody has been reduced to two measures or maybe four if it's really complicated. Rock music hasn't gone anywhere in the last 10 years. Put on MTV and the same stuff that has been going on for the last 20 years seems to be repeated over and over with the only thing being any different is the accompanying video.

Rap videos all seem to be about booty and tossing Franklins around while driving bling blinged SUVs.

Let's not even mention the Brittanys. Imagine Ella Fitzgerald in todays scene. She wouldn't stand a chance. She could only sing. They lip synch that stuff now.

There is an entire generation that has lost touch with music but they'll probably never know it. Maybe their kids will rebel and start listening to Stockhausen.

Maybe I sound like a fuddy duddy but I paid my dues and earned the right to *****. The difference, though, from the "turn down that noise, damn kids" and me is that I see the end of times. Don't get me wrong, I'd play on a hip hop session in a second but they just don't know anymore. The art is dying. It's too hard. Pratice? What's that?

BTW, I just spent two hours learning "West Side Story" and I'm about 5% done.

Don't even get me started on "sound men".

Well, it's still their own if they do not pay for it. It's not like the original artist compiled it that way. It's still morally wrong, but there is a distinction between property and the creativity.

Not everyone wants to be quiet to listen to something. I'd say in todays crowd, it is more important that teh crowd gets involved. Many artists and bands love it. I certainly enjoy being a spectator in a football game then a game of golf.

Who cares about chord progressions? It's still music. People like it and listen to it. That's all that really matters. It doesn't make it any less of a song. I mean is there some kind of a template that has to be used to make music. Innovation and creativity is all about doing it differently than before.

I disagree about rock's progression. While it has not been a fast progression, it is still strong and still modern. We are seeing more of a mix of genre's. Rockers and rappers have combined their talents to make songs. Some rock bands have expirimented with other genre's, ex: No Doubt uses some reggaeish music in some of their songs. Some even let a variety of influences define them, ex: Linkin Park's use of rap, rock, vocal, and even a DJ. And MTV is a terrible representation of the music we listen to anyways. It does not encompass all.

I don't think people these days have as much interest in where music comes from as much as just listening to it, but I do not think people appreciate music any less. They appreciate it differently. Have you ever been to a rave? Figure tens of thousands of people coming to one place to listen to music. And the last one I went to had 8 different types. And the crowd moved from room to room to listen to different things.

"paying your dues" gives you no ore right to ***** than the next person. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And in any matter that involves so much subjectivity, even knowledgable opinions are still only opinions. I don't see how the art is dying. Its certainly changing. I'm sure there were those like you saying similar things when new types of music popped up. Rock, Disco, rap were all critisized when they were new. People tend to fear change. They use fear to further spread negative vibes. Raves get a bad name because of the drugs. But it was not much different than what happened in the disco era. If music never changed, we would be stuck with the same thing over and over again. We'd probably have no instruments as well. I'm not sure if singing or banging on a drum came first, but I'd imagine, if no changes were made, we'd be stuck with one or the other.

[C-Kwik]

My entire point is that there is a world of true art out there that is entirely forgotten. Stuff that was made by genius. All going away. Trance? Is that some form of mimimalism? Techo? Guys with synthesizers repeating the same stuff over and over? I like like meat with my potatoes. Too many carbs make you fat.

Shall we bring try to bring back folk music too then? While only a small percentage of people truly know musical history, and furthermore even appreciate it, it's only natural that this happens. Music as do people of society evolves. Old music will never truly be forgotten. Most modern music was derived from another type of genre before it. And this chain continues back to the earliest forms. Appreciating new music encompasses a lot of what was. Only now, you add in some new creativity.

As far as electronica, certainly technology has made it easier. Making different sounds is easy. Putting it together in an arrangement that sounds good still takes skill. Not every attempt at electronica sounds good. And you may hear it as repetetive, but listen to it a while. Especially at a club where a DJ spins it. You'll find it's actually a lot less repetetive than you think. But solely listening to electronica is not usually what brings people into it. Many people like to dance and become involved and absorbed into their music. Of course, there are also the E-tards, but they tend to bring things down a bit. There are many who can be so absorbed into the music without any drugs that they can never leave the dance floor and just keep moving. And keep in mind the music is fast paced and the movements are as well. Do that for a few hours and you'll be laughing at your next aerobics class. You don't have to like it. But there is a reason it is so popular around the world...

[VimyJ]

I have nothing against drugs if used responsibly. I went to the first raves way back when. Consider my self a rave pioneer. I went to raves for the chicks. Can't make people concentrate on subtleties these days. In your face or go home. Sledge hammer tactics to appeal to the "my high school sucks" crowd.

I hope you don't get an uninformed opinion about your transmission that costs you thousands but it's an opinion. Rock has stalled out and if it weren't for booty, Rap would be dead in the water.

I'll steal your nice wheels for my car. Hey, its my car. Who cares if they're your wheels. I could pay for my own wheels but yours are there and they're free. I'll take the chrome off them then they won't be yours.

Songs require singing. Not much singing these days. Poetry? Yep. It reamains. Too bad for us music guys. Not much for us. Never really was into lyrics.

"Who cares about chord progressions?" I rest my case.

[VimyJ]

Shall we bring try to bring back folk music too then? While only a small percentage of people truly know musical history, and furthermore even appreciate it, it's only natural that this happens. Music as do people of society evolves. Old music will never truly be forgotten. Most modern music was derived from another type of genre before it. And this chain continues back to the earliest forms. Appreciating new music encompasses a lot of what was. Only now, you add in some new creativity.

As far as electronica, certainly technology has made it easier. Making different sounds is easy. Putting it together in an arrangement that sounds good still takes skill. Not every attempt at electronica sounds good. And you may hear it as repetetive, but listen to it a while. Especially at a club where a DJ spins it. You'll find it's actually a lot less repetetive than you think. But solely listening to electronica is not usually what brings people into it. Many people like to dance and become involved and absorbed into their music. Of course, there are also the E-tards, but they tend to bring things down a bit. There are many who can be so absorbed into the music without any drugs that they can never leave the dance floor and just keep moving. And keep in mind the music is fast paced and the movements are as well. Do that for a few hours and you'll be laughing at your next aerobics class. You don't have to like it. But there is a reason it is so popular around the world...

Try sitting still and listen. Take away the chicks. Take away the booze and drugs. Take away the lights. Take away the unnatural sub woofers.

What do you have? Not much to write home about.

[C-Kwik]

I have nothing against drugs if used responsibly. I went to the first raves way back when. Consider my self a rave pioneer. I went to raves for the chicks. Can't make people concentrate on subtleties these days. In your face or go home. Sledge hammer tactics to appeal to the "my high school sucks" crowd.

I hope you don't get an uninformed opinion about your transmission that costs you thousands but it's an opinion. Rock has stalled out and if it weren't for booty, Rap would be dead in the water.

I'll steal your nice wheels for my car. Hey, its my car. Who cares if they're your wheels. I could pay for my own wheels but yours are there and they're free. I'll take the chrome off them then they won't be yours.

Songs require singing. Not much singing these days. Poetry? Yep. It reamains. Too bad for us music guys. Not much for us. Never really was into lyrics.

"Who cares about chord progressions?" I rest my case.

Then you went for different reasons than I do. No judgments made here. Not that girls are no factor at all...=)

There a difference between an opinion of pure subjectivity and an opinion of what is fact. And about the booty. I rarely watch music videos. I enjoy much of this so-called booty rap without having seen a video. I seriously doubt I am the only one either.

As I've said, I do think stealing music is wrong. However, I'm speaking in reality here. If you were to steal my wheels, the fact and reality is that you would now have my wheels. It's no different than with music. The reality is if someone takes a song and usues parts of it as their own, the reality is that they made something out of it.

Songs require singing? Who says? Whose rule is that? Yours? Again, when did art ever follow a specific template. I don't think I've ever heard Kenny G sing. Does that make his music any less important or impactful just for that reason? Wait a minute here. I don't think I've heard many orchestras that have singers. You seem to speak so highly of them.

As far as the chord progressions, you missed my point. Or perhaps that was my fault and I didn't explain it well enough. My point is that myself and about 99% of the rest of the world probably could care less. If it exists in a song and it sounds geed, then great! If it does not and the song still sounds good then great! Some people like cars for the way it looks. Some people like cars for the way it drives. Some people like cars for the technology used in it. Everyone will have their own tastes. I for one love to pick cars apart for their technology. Perhaps the way you do with music. But I won't think any less of a person's choice of car or for their reasons for choosing a car if they aren't the same as mine. I may not agree with them, but who am I to tell them they can't be happy and enjoy what they like?

[C-Kwik]

Try sitting still and listen. Take away the chicks. Take away the booze and drugs. Take away the lights. Take away the unnatural sub woofers.

What do you have? Not much to write home about.

And Mozart's work is hardly anything to dance to. So what? Music is and should be enjoyed in different ways. And I have done all that. I've never been high while at a rave. Been drunk a few times, but I certainly wasn't most of the time. I certainly dont need the lights. Again, I've never been high at a rave so it would not have the effect it does oon someone who is rolling. And as far as the subwoofers, try listening to a CD of some classical music through a pair of tweeters. It definitely won't have the same impact. Even classical music needs bass and a good fill of range to have the same impact. I can totally enjoy listening to an orchestra play something. So long as the music is good. Or if you want to make the argument of live orchestra, how about they play in an open field and not a hall where the acoustics have been designed to amplify the orchestra's sounds to allow for more enjoyment. They would begin to quickly sound about as full as a marching band at a high school football game. Technology is not an enemy to music. Subwoofers are part of the instrument of music in the is case. Why don't you take all the violins out of your orchestra and see how that sounds? Or all your wind instruments. Hell, brass instruments only amplify and change a fart sound you make with your lips. Why not just listen to the fart sound? I am being very facetious. I apologize. I am only using it to make a point. As much of a purist as you might be, you have to recognize that music is truly only as good as the people behind it. Instruments, whether highly technological or simply a bunch of valves, slides and pipes, are a way to enhance an experience.

[InstantRice]

vimy no offense but you may not be as open minded to music as you think you are. the fact that you use mtv as your basis for where rap and rock are currently kinda shows that. Mtv plays what sells not necessarily whats good (milli vanilli anyone?). As far as progression of music it's there you just have to look for it. for rock i would look to sleeping at lasts new album ghosts. anything by The get up kids or at the drive in will also work. and there are so many rap artists that defy your generalizations for instance : del the funky homosapien (one of the few to do a rap concept album), common, J5, the hieroglyphics, the living legends, doc octagon, and the list goes on and on.

[VimyJ]

Listen to a CD representation of digitally recorded sound? How about just go listen to the orchestra. That's the real deal. the sounds are amplified in a field because some numbnut thinks it's a good idea to play outside and another numbnut says you have to amplify it or people won't show up. Geeze, I wonder how Sousa ever became the march King and why all those outdoor band shells were built? How did an out of tune high school marching band get in here? An enseble that plays in tune is much louder than your typical high school marching band with their crap tone and crappier intonation. (I never chose music education because I hate crap tone and crap intonation) Take out the sub woofers and you're left with not much. It's there to give the illusion of something actually happening. Sub woofers aren't an instrument. They're a crutch.

It never ceases to amaze me that people would think twice about having a twenty something handle their law suit or pour their new driveway but think that a garage band graduate who is shaving twice a week is some kind of musical genius. I guess I just demand more but the current pop music biz is not geared to appeal to the sophisticated ear.

Advertising companies want to put ads in school buses now. They know nothing either. Blank slates who need to be told that SunnyD simulated fruit drink is fun and who will believe it for the rest of their lives.

"So long as the music is good"? Careful there. Sounds like a value judgement.

Interesting how you equate a sub woofer with a violin. Hmmm..... No criticism from me. Just plain interesting.

[Megaseth]

i still say look for some VNV Nation or Project Pitchfork...

[MaineExport]

AFI, Tool, Type O Negative, Mudvayne.... I'd say they have all pushed the limits of rock recently. It is unfortunate that there are not more bands along the same lines... but rock music has certainly not grown stale.

I grumble and moan about what I perceive as a lack of talent or creativity in some genres of music... but they all deserve respect in their own right, and they ALL help evolve music and art as we know it. Like it or not... it's there... it's art.... it's creativity... and it is perfectly healthy and normal.... and necessary

[VimyJ]

Songs have words. Without words, a song is a tune. A tune is melody. Song and sing have the same root.

I would have no recourse when you sent the cops after me to take your wheels back. They're your wheels after all. If I want to take the chrome off some wheels, I should buy some wheels of my own to dechrome.

I know the pop music biz doesn't really care about chord progressions. They care about moving units. Chords shcmords? How many units did we sell?

Kenny G sucks the big one. Did you ever hear about the rich guy who had Kenny G playing in his elevator?

[VimyJ]

"del the funky homosapien (one of the few to do a rap concept album), common, J5, the hieroglyphics, the living legends, doc octagon, and the list goes on and on."

Bachs, Mozarts, Parkers, Mahlers, Armstrongs, Steely Dans all.

Hey, I check out BET too.

[I Need $$$]

another rock band to add to Maine exports list to show rock isn't dead is Audioslave. Chris Cornell is a genius. He was in Soundgarden and he still is now.

[MaineExport]

another rock band to add to Maine exports list to show rock isn't dead is Audioslave. Chris Cornell is a genius. He was in Soundgarden and he still is now.

Yeah... Rage Against the Machine with a vocalist who can actually sing... they are pretty good.

I am a big fan of the bands I mentioned for a lot of reasons... not the least of which is their fearless attack on conventional rock timing and structure. Mudvayne and tool are particularly insane in this regard. A lot of their work has changing time signatures in every measure, for 8 and 10 measure increments. It is a drummer’s wet dream and nightmare all in one.

[I Need $$$]

Danny Carey is a drumming God. He is absolutely insane. I was planning on putting something about Tool then I noticed that you had already written about it. Maynard James Keenan is another superb vocalist. His lyrics can be horrifying (Prison Sex) but the intensity with which he sings makes them unbelievable.

[Megaseth]

Dont forget John Bonham, he was a pretty good drummer too

check out the Haunted. a death metal band, a genre which im not to fond of, but these guys are good. they're really talented musicians. the drummer is equally insane, using a double bass setup along with a bunch more. hes really good, doing double tempo, rolls, etc etc.

[InstantRice]

"del the funky homosapien (one of the few to do a rap concept album), common, J5, the hieroglyphics, the living legends, doc octagon, and the list goes on and on."

Bachs, Mozarts, Parkers, Mahlers, Armstrongs, Steely Dans all.

Hey, I check out BET too.

mature, only 1 maybe 2 of those artists have ever been on rotation on either station. i'm not comparing them to awny artists i was trying to state that you base your generalizations on MTV. A corporation that is driven by one thing and one thing only money. If "bentleys and *****es" is what sells guess whats going on there. Just because you don't see a form of music progressing or a form of music having more substance than what is displayed on MTV. doesn't mean it's not there. for you to stereotype all rap as "*****es and bentleys" is unfair but thats up to you

[InstantRice]

AFI, Tool, Type O Negative, Mudvayne.... I'd say they have all pushed the limits of rock recently. It is unfortunate that there are not more bands along the same lines... but rock music has certainly not grown stale.

As much as i hate most of those bands w/ the exception of afi you have a solid point. i forgot to mention brand new's album deja entendu.

[I Need $$$]

Yeah my old roomate was relly into all of the really heavy metal bands, Deicide, Children of the Bodom, Morbid Angel, Corrosion of Conformity and Eyehategod. I could always tell that there was talent in there somewhere but when they started singing I had to walk away. Although I do like the newest Neurosis album. He had the DVD too its pretty messed up. ::COUGH:: on acid ::cough::

[InstantRice]

yeah i hate metal one of my best friends is really into metalcore/hardcore music. I can appreciate some of it but as far as rock goes i'm into emo more so.

[MaineExport]

Deicide, Children of the Bodom, Morbid Angel, Corrosion of Conformity and Eyehategod. I could always tell that there was talent in there somewhere but when they started singing I had to walk away.

Absolutely....

The bands are immensely talented... but I agree with you on the vocal thing. There is nothing more annoying to me than hearing some steroided coke-head freak gargling in his best "demonic-possession" voice and ranting on about death, hate, darkness, and destruction. That's another big reason why I mentioned the bands I did... they all have phenomenal vocalists at the helm. But... to each their own...

[InstantRice]

yeah dave havok is the man.

[C-Kwik]

Listen to a CD representation of digitally recorded sound? How about just go listen to the orchestra. That's the real deal. the sounds are amplified in a field because some numbnut thinks it's a good idea to play outside and another numbnut says you have to amplify it or people won't show up. Geeze, I wonder how Sousa ever became the march King and why all those outdoor band shells were built? How did an out of tune high school marching band get in here? An enseble that plays in tune is much louder than your typical high school marching band with their crap tone and crappier intonation. (I never chose music education because I hate crap tone and crap intonation) Take out the sub woofers and you're left with not much. It's there to give the illusion of something actually happening. Sub woofers aren't an instrument. They're a crutch.

It never ceases to amaze me that people would think twice about having a twenty something handle their law suit or pour their new driveway but think that a garage band graduate who is shaving twice a week is some kind of musical genius. I guess I just demand more but the current pop music biz is not geared to appeal to the sophisticated ear.

Advertising companies want to put ads in school buses now. They know nothing either. Blank slates who need to be told that SunnyD simulated fruit drink is fun and who will believe it for the rest of their lives.

"So long as the music is good"? Careful there. Sounds like a value judgement.

Interesting how you equate a sub woofer with a violin. Hmmm..... No criticism from me. Just plain interesting.

You know, you seem to have a very high standard for music. Not everyone else does. Not everyone else has to or should. When an orchestra starts playing trance or hip-hop, perhaps I'll be more picky. But somehow I don't see that as being realistic. Do you have a stereo in your car? Perhaps you should rip it out. It apparently does you no justice.

It also never ceases to amaze me how people argue experience. There is a huge difference between having 10 years experience and 1 year of experience repeated 10 times. The argument of experience is weak. The argument of actual knowledge and specific experiences have much more credibility. There are plenty of mechanics I know of with 20 years experience that I can walk circles around. But I am humble enough to know there are people out there that can do the same to me with less time behind a wrench. Same goes for my work. I trained half of my company's claim staff in my respective skillset across the nation and I only had 5 years in claims at the time. I was training people with a lot more time served than I. Not to say I am any better than they are, but it's not to say they are any better than I. But it's not like they just went and picked the guy with the most experience. Or perhaps I can bring up an example of something you might understand. Mozart was very young when he started his musical endeavour. So, are you saying a young musical prodigy could not exist today? Or perhaps, If I were to play an instrument for say, 20 years, does it mean that I will automatically be good at it or understand it better than anyone else?

Perhaps the reason you don't seem to like modern music is because you have such high standards. I'm not asking you to change your opinion of music. It doesn't matter to me what you listen to. My standards are apparently much lower. I'll be at a Linkin Park Concert this time next week. I will be enjoying the music, having a great time and will be happy to hear it through some huge loud subwoofers. You can't take that away from me. Nor can you take it away from anyone else. You can try to educate us on the fundamentals of music all you want. The fact is most people just want to listen to music. You can't change that. If you want to appreciate music differently than most, then good for you. But don't be so quick to judge against those who don't or those who cater to these people. I see no problem with any artist who can bring joy and happiness to even one other person in this world. And if you can't see beyond your own opinions enough to see that others can value music to the same extent, but in a different way, then I'd say my original post does apply to you.

[I Need $$$]

The Symphonic Pink Floyd album is awesome. Oh yeah and everyone needs to listen to ILL Mitch.

[VimyJ]

You know, you seem to have a very high standard for music. Not everyone else does. Not everyone else has to or should.

Like I've said before, it's "A Brave New World". Quote »When an orchestra starts playing trance or hip-hop, perhaps I'll be more picky. But somehow I don't see that as being realistic.[/quote]You're dead on there.

Quote » Do you have a stereo in your car? Perhaps you should rip it out. It apparently does you no justice.[/quote]Where does that come from? Can't I play my screaming salsa music anymore? Or my Mahler 2?

Quote » Or perhaps, If I were to play an instrument for say, 20 years, does it mean that I will automatically be good at it or understand it better than anyone else?[/quote]If you aren't any good after 20 minutes you'll never work professionally. However, if you've ben a pro player for 20 years then you are probably at least pretty decent (unless you stop practicing and are in a tenured situation somewhere). The more you play, the better you get.

Quote »Perhaps the reason you don't seem to like modern music is because you have such high standards. I'm not asking you to change your opinion of music. It doesn't matter to me what you listen to. [/quote]Modern music? Well if you say hip hop is modern. More like a throw back. I'm asking you to enlarge your critical facilities. Doesn't matter what you listen to to me either. Knock yourself out.

Quote » I will be enjoying the music, having a great time and will be happy to hear it through some huge loud subwoofers. You can't take that away from me.[/quote]

Soma?

Quote » You can try to educate us on the fundamentals of music all you want.[/quote]Hear that Maine? I'm a teacher now. You can lead a horse to water....

Quote » The fact is most people just want to listen to music. You can't change that. If you want to appreciate music differently than most, then good for you. But don't be so quick to judge against those who don't or those who cater to these people. I see no problem with any artist who can bring joy and happiness to even one other person in this world. And if you can't see beyond your own opinions enough to see that others can value music to the same extent, but in a different way, then I'd say my original post does apply to you. [/quote]Don't be so quick to judge yourself. And, don't sell yourself short. There is a world of sound out there with which you have no experience.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ "]Hear that Maine? I'm a teacher now. You can led a horse to water....



I think you've got an issue there with conflicting subject/verb tense relationships.

That being said... you have to give him an incentive to drink. There's a plethora of ways to do that.... ask an educator.

[Tino]

Man, I'd love to see a heated debate tween' Vimy and K-car.