The Grey Album???
mike's making alot of good points. i was wondering, by electronica, do you mean techno or true electronica stuff? i think techno deserves no credit. that stuff is insanely easy to do. i bought a mixing program for my PC and i can makes like that with no problems, cept the program didnt like my PC. anyway, when i mentioned electronica, i was refering to most of the good euro stuff. check out VNV nation if you havent. one of the best groups i've heard, and its just two guys.
NY94J30 wrote:Man, you are a music snob Mike... I think you patently underestimate the artistry involved in making an electronic track sound good - if it were as easy as you assert then there would not be a distinct and recognized hierarchy of world class producers/arrangers in electronic genres. Alas, subjectivity offers no ground on which to battle....so I'm out, for now...
"Music is a beautiful opiate, if you don't take it too seriously. "
There is no way that guy who has done a full harmonic analysis of Richard Struass' tone poem "Don Juan" could ever underestimate anything. I've spent mucho time in studios. I know how it's done. Don't let your eyes decieve you. A piano with 88 keys is 100 levels of difficulty away from a mixing board with its seemingly endless rows of buttons. That is objective fact. Making the sounds is much much much harder than stealing them.
BTW, John Coltrane is a mother****er insanely great artist. Have't heard anything even remotely approaching his level of sonic mastery for the Rap boys and never will. You know why? Because you have to practice for years and years to sound like that and then you get paid crap. Why work so hard when you can steal the stuff?
As Mageseth said, those programs you can put on your PC are 95% of the deal. Now get some good samples and a chick who can sing for two measures and Bob's your uncle. Not saying rappers can't put together some good metered words.
As Mageseth said, those programs you can put on your PC are 95% of the deal. Now get some good samples and a chick who can sing for two measures and Bob's your uncle. Not saying rappers can't put together some good metered words.
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blink0r
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NY94J30 wrote:A couple things, first Jay-Z has nothing to do with this (nor do the beatles), The Grey Album is a bootleg made by DJ Danger Mouse.
Whether it was Jay-z, or danger mouse, or whatever the hell name you want, it's still brutal. Being a musician myself, it really upsets me to see hip-hop artists stealing musicians songs and turning them into million dollar making mtv singles. Pathetic.
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Queenskid
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Lame you guys are lame talking about hip hop have u ever heard hip hop p diddy is not hip hop and sorry to say no one can say **** to jay z like rap is the only style of music sample music what's that saying about something being bliss man it really must be nice to live such a small world must be nice
Queenskid wrote:Lame you guys are lame talking about hip hop have u ever heard hip hop p diddy is not hip hop and sorry to say no one can say **** to jay z like rap is the only style of music sample music what's that saying about something being bliss man it really must be nice to live such a small world must be nice
Yeah the origanal artists cant be to mad(that is if there still alive) becosue they had to give the okay to sample and didnt mind the check. Sampling is hip hop or rap or what ever you want to call it. As far as sampling goes get the Beastie Boys Puals Boutiqe album, Back before you had to pay for sampling. The problem here is that you think into it to much and that sampling can be creative- Camrons sample of Roxane was diffrent and somewhat okay, But most of the stuff P Diddy or whatever is name is was bad and still is.
Im not that fond of new music or Radio music for that matter, Im sick of all the new hip hop(im in Dallas so all that gets played is Lil Jon crap) and all the wanna be emo bands that pollute the air waves. As far as my Music goes you can find a N.E.R.D cd sitting right next to the doors and or Rahzel. Try not to think into the music, And if you dont like it change it or put in a CD. Thats what I do.
Im not that fond of new music or Radio music for that matter, Im sick of all the new hip hop(im in Dallas so all that gets played is Lil Jon crap) and all the wanna be emo bands that pollute the air waves. As far as my Music goes you can find a N.E.R.D cd sitting right next to the doors and or Rahzel. Try not to think into the music, And if you dont like it change it or put in a CD. Thats what I do.
"As far as sampling goes get the Beastie Boys Puals Boutiqe album, Back before you had to pay for sampling"
That's the thing, though. You always had to pay for other's creations that might be used for a new project unless the material was in the public domain. There is a disconnect that has occured. There is no difference between Chinese co.s bootlegging copied software and lazy samplers and sequencers pirating other's creative work.
In fact, everyone here knows the outrage from people who are getting busted and sued for illegally downloading copyrighted music. Well, they're breaking the law and just because stealing tunes is easier than buying or creating your own doesn't make it right or ethical.
Music has lost its value and worth. If people can't be bothered to pay for others work then the work has lost its absolute value.
It's a "Brave New World."
That's the thing, though. You always had to pay for other's creations that might be used for a new project unless the material was in the public domain. There is a disconnect that has occured. There is no difference between Chinese co.s bootlegging copied software and lazy samplers and sequencers pirating other's creative work.
In fact, everyone here knows the outrage from people who are getting busted and sued for illegally downloading copyrighted music. Well, they're breaking the law and just because stealing tunes is easier than buying or creating your own doesn't make it right or ethical.
Music has lost its value and worth. If people can't be bothered to pay for others work then the work has lost its absolute value.
It's a "Brave New World."
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MaineExport
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Well said Vimy! As a musician I could not agree more.
I do, however, think that the pirating of protected material and the sampling (licensed or otherwise) are different issues that need different considerations.
Pirating music that was created by and belongs to someone else is both legally and ethically wrong. As Vimy stated, it basically dilutes the art form and detracts from the quality of the body of work out there.
Sampling is an art form of its own. If someone is out making millions of dollars sampling or mixing another artists work, then obviously proper dues should be paid. But, I think at some level it is "okay" to sample other artists' work in your own without paying outrageous fees that really don't even get back to the original artist in a reasonably proportionate way. If the ability to sample becomes cost prohibitive, then that too lowers the value and worth of music. When new "starving" artists can't afford to create because those that came before them got too greedy.... then as fans of music, we all suffer.
I do, however, think that the pirating of protected material and the sampling (licensed or otherwise) are different issues that need different considerations.
Pirating music that was created by and belongs to someone else is both legally and ethically wrong. As Vimy stated, it basically dilutes the art form and detracts from the quality of the body of work out there.
Sampling is an art form of its own. If someone is out making millions of dollars sampling or mixing another artists work, then obviously proper dues should be paid. But, I think at some level it is "okay" to sample other artists' work in your own without paying outrageous fees that really don't even get back to the original artist in a reasonably proportionate way. If the ability to sample becomes cost prohibitive, then that too lowers the value and worth of music. When new "starving" artists can't afford to create because those that came before them got too greedy.... then as fans of music, we all suffer.
Sampling is a merely a way of rerecording someone else's work. There are two victims of the sampler: the composer and/or performer. As a performer, I absolutely have a vested interest in protecting the use of my performance. If I opted for a "buy out" of my future rights as part of the deal in my original performance compensation, my concern is moot as the deal has been done. However, most buy outs only refer to performance of the original recorded work. There are many grey areas here as this is new ground without legal precedent.
Actually, there was a recording strike in the late 40s that was about recorded "quotes" of previously released performances by other musicians. It got to the point that all "jazz" solos were written down so there was no chance of a quote appearing within a solo. Very wierd scene. The deal was worked out so that quotes could appear as they had become part of the "lingua franca" of the art form and could be distinguished from outright plagerism.
However, now we have a technology that plagerizes note for note and tamber for tamber regardless of whether is has been electronically manipulated or not.
As the name itself implies, "sampling" is not by definition creative since the term refers to taking a sample of something that already exists and part and parcel of the sample are all the existing rights granted to the artists under which the sampled opus was created in the first place. That is the sticky part of sampling technology. Why should a "samplist" get free access to someone else's creation?
A sampling device is a only a cost saving technology. The same end can be arrived at by writing music and paying (or performing on synthesizer) musicians to perform original compositions (perhaps in the style of a referenced artist) and then sampling the resulting material to electroncally manipulate it anyway the buyer of said services desires. As we know with our dear cars, you have to pay to play.
I think rather than furthering music as an art, sampling is stunting the art form in a qualitative way.
Actually, there was a recording strike in the late 40s that was about recorded "quotes" of previously released performances by other musicians. It got to the point that all "jazz" solos were written down so there was no chance of a quote appearing within a solo. Very wierd scene. The deal was worked out so that quotes could appear as they had become part of the "lingua franca" of the art form and could be distinguished from outright plagerism.
However, now we have a technology that plagerizes note for note and tamber for tamber regardless of whether is has been electronically manipulated or not.
As the name itself implies, "sampling" is not by definition creative since the term refers to taking a sample of something that already exists and part and parcel of the sample are all the existing rights granted to the artists under which the sampled opus was created in the first place. That is the sticky part of sampling technology. Why should a "samplist" get free access to someone else's creation?
A sampling device is a only a cost saving technology. The same end can be arrived at by writing music and paying (or performing on synthesizer) musicians to perform original compositions (perhaps in the style of a referenced artist) and then sampling the resulting material to electroncally manipulate it anyway the buyer of said services desires. As we know with our dear cars, you have to pay to play.
I think rather than furthering music as an art, sampling is stunting the art form in a qualitative way.
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MaineExport
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I would argue that the Beastie Boys are among some of the most creative musicians of our time. Their talent isn't necessarily in their ability to "play" their instruments (although they are quite talented in their own right). Their talent is in their writing, arranging, and PERFORMING. Their use of "sampling" is extremely creative and it would be futile to argue that it isn't "art". If they were not allowed to create their music the way they do... we, as fans, would suffer. Obviously, since they are making a lot of money off of this, the "original" artists deserve recompense. That and Led Zeppelin kicks a$$.
As a performer you may want to protect your rights for whatever reason... my take on that is greed. I have been a performing musician since I was VERY young. I consider it a compliment and flattering for someone to want to reproduce my work as long as I get credit where it is due. If someone is to make a lot of money off of my "original" work.. then I agree with you wholeheartedly... I should receive just compensation.
Then again... most popular music is just a natural evolution of the music of previous generations. Guitarists steal licks and riffs from other guitarists all the time. As a drummer, my style comes from what I listen to. Lucky for me I have an extremely diverse taste in music. My point is... where do you draw the line. Blatant plagerism is obviously not acceptable. But sampling is some sort of middle ground between plagerism and mere influence.
As a performer you may want to protect your rights for whatever reason... my take on that is greed. I have been a performing musician since I was VERY young. I consider it a compliment and flattering for someone to want to reproduce my work as long as I get credit where it is due. If someone is to make a lot of money off of my "original" work.. then I agree with you wholeheartedly... I should receive just compensation.
Then again... most popular music is just a natural evolution of the music of previous generations. Guitarists steal licks and riffs from other guitarists all the time. As a drummer, my style comes from what I listen to. Lucky for me I have an extremely diverse taste in music. My point is... where do you draw the line. Blatant plagerism is obviously not acceptable. But sampling is some sort of middle ground between plagerism and mere influence.
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StrangeLove
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I don't have a musical background besides playing the saxophone in middle school, and listening to music that I find enjoyable...
I think lyrics are a distraction... They are at times needed in music, but should not be the main focus in a song. In rap and hip hop there is nothing, but lyrics, there is no actual music being produced! Its just the same stolen beat being played over and over and over again while some moron talks about slappin' a ho... Its sickening...
If you are wondering what I consider to be good music, I happen to think tool is the greatest band of all time. Their music is much deeper than what is played on the radio. I've been listening to them for about 6 years, and I have never gotten bored or tired of listening to their music, not once in the hundreds of times I've listened to everyone of their songs. I cannot say that about any other band that I've listened to.
Quote »Lame you guys are lame talking about hip hop have u ever heard hip hop p diddy is not hip hop and sorry to say no one can say **** to jay z like rap is the only style of music sample music what's that saying about something being bliss man it really must be nice to live such a small world must be nice[/quote]
Just look what hip hop has done to poor Queenskid!
I think lyrics are a distraction... They are at times needed in music, but should not be the main focus in a song. In rap and hip hop there is nothing, but lyrics, there is no actual music being produced! Its just the same stolen beat being played over and over and over again while some moron talks about slappin' a ho... Its sickening...
If you are wondering what I consider to be good music, I happen to think tool is the greatest band of all time. Their music is much deeper than what is played on the radio. I've been listening to them for about 6 years, and I have never gotten bored or tired of listening to their music, not once in the hundreds of times I've listened to everyone of their songs. I cannot say that about any other band that I've listened to.
Quote »Lame you guys are lame talking about hip hop have u ever heard hip hop p diddy is not hip hop and sorry to say no one can say **** to jay z like rap is the only style of music sample music what's that saying about something being bliss man it really must be nice to live such a small world must be nice[/quote]
Just look what hip hop has done to poor Queenskid!
MaineExport wrote:
As a performer you may want to protect your rights for whatever reason... my take on that is greed. I have been a performing musician since I was VERY young. I consider it a compliment and flattering for someone to want to reproduce my work as long as I get credit where it is due. If someone is to make a lot of money off of my "original" work.. then I agree with you wholeheartedly... I should receive just compensation.
That is the point. Most samplers wouldn't think twice about stealing riffs and licks and other's performances. I like the Beasty Boys but they hardly rise to the level of art. They are fun and that is about as far as it goes for me.
You take the pat on the back. I'll take the cash. Cash is much more of a compliment because it transfers tangible value for services rendered. Try calling a plumber in and see if he'll take a pat on the back as payment.
We're splitting hairs here , of course, but if those guys don't have the knowledge or ability to create their own sounds they shouldn't be able to steal my product from me. If they're ignorant, it's not my fault but in no way should I suffer from their ignorance. Even if you're hungry, you're not allowed to steal bread.
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MaineExport
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VimyJ wrote:You take the pat on the back. I'll take the cash. Cash is much more of a compliment because it transfers tangible value for services rendered. Try calling a plumber in and see if he'll take a pat on the back as payment.
I find fulfillment in more than just money. "Isn't it ironic.... don't you think?"
We're splitting hairs here , of course, but if those guys don't have the knowledge or ability to create their own sounds they shouldn't be able to steal my product from me
Agreed... but first of all... they ARE creating their own sounds (especially in the case of the B-Boys) using (for the sake of argument) samples of Led Zep's music as an instrument of its own. It's not like they're taking the entire product and reproducing it under their own name... they are taking one or two seconds off of individual tracks. Also, B-Boys still play thier own instruments on EVERY album from start to finish... and their live show still involves a lot of live instrumental performance.
It's not uncommon for people to have opposing views of what constitutes art. It has been a center of debate for decades. I don't think everybody that samples is an artist... but all of the "electronic" music and most of hip hop uses sampling as it's foundation. I don't personally enjoy a lot of it... but I respect the musicians or "artists" for their talent. A lot of it is just technical know-how... but there is unbounded creativity involved... which is the life blood of art.
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MaineExport
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pills wrote:
Just look what hip hop has done to poor Queenskid!
Haha... no doubt! I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that couldn't make heads nor tails out of that post. A little punctuation goes a long way. There was something in there about ignorance? In the words of my all time favorite NICO-naught....
"See also: Pot, Kettle, black"
BTW... I agree that Tool is one of the finest rock bands out there today... followed closely by AFI.
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DiDi Dissuer
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I just had to get in on this thread for the second time and be done after this because I don't like to be redundant or get in heated debates when there is not winner but I wanted to touch on some reality here:
The beauty of music and artistry whether being a muscian or not is expression. If you were taught by the best or self taught you know in your purest form that it is all about expression and everyone is not going to get what you do but they can appreciate the expression. It is what defines an artist, musician.....(with me so far?) Too many times we get caught up with being OFFENDED.....this is where you become the snob and genralize yourself......if you had a chance to be in greatness like I have the masters who designed the original music are less offended, they have risen above the occasion and find it flattery (OMIGOD DiDi said flattery?lol) yeah flattery or a don't give a f*** attitude, just send the roylaties ladies and gentleman I have gone through most of my money anyway on dope, parties and bad spending lol) Anyway, I had a chance to meet greats like BBKing, Carole King, Fleetwood MAC, James Brown, Roberta Flack while being a flight attendant in my early twenties and many of my questions were how they felt about sampling and their music or in genral....quotes ranged from who the F*** cares its music, flattering, the wave of the generation and so on.........what one has done in their moment of time is theirs and theirs alone, what we have here is just no effort to create but music is what it is, musicianship is what it is we have those that excel to the finer points of their craft and we have others who are ho hum.....as far as acoustics I think Prince is phenomenal, effortless in his skills as a guitarist but it is rarely talked upon and showcased on a consistent level and then you have the stylings of led zepplin, etc so you know.......we must learn as musicians to be less general and more open minded, less cynical and more young at heart....when you find yourself talking like grandpop that told you to turn the friggin music down......either you will continue down that road or run for the hills of your open mind and go with the flow........not that you have to listen to what is out there but be in a mindframe of "This is not for me, but it is what it is to someone else". And DJ Danger Mouse will profit big time, just because of the buzz word and hip hop....don't generalize that either because what you hear now on heavy rotation is rap music and true hip hop is still alive and well but less mainstream it is made upon more beats of jazz greats and 70's inspired music which is fine because hip hop is poetic thought and expression true hip hop and it speaks volumes more when you add music which is where spoken word gave birth not just to blacks but whites if you had people enlighten you of grenwich village NY 60's hippie scene and poetic greats like Nikki Giovanni........if you don't know and using generalist terms....speak not what you know not. Just be open minded and less generalist.....True artist are less of the latter.
DiDi......
The beauty of music and artistry whether being a muscian or not is expression. If you were taught by the best or self taught you know in your purest form that it is all about expression and everyone is not going to get what you do but they can appreciate the expression. It is what defines an artist, musician.....(with me so far?) Too many times we get caught up with being OFFENDED.....this is where you become the snob and genralize yourself......if you had a chance to be in greatness like I have the masters who designed the original music are less offended, they have risen above the occasion and find it flattery (OMIGOD DiDi said flattery?lol) yeah flattery or a don't give a f*** attitude, just send the roylaties ladies and gentleman I have gone through most of my money anyway on dope, parties and bad spending lol) Anyway, I had a chance to meet greats like BBKing, Carole King, Fleetwood MAC, James Brown, Roberta Flack while being a flight attendant in my early twenties and many of my questions were how they felt about sampling and their music or in genral....quotes ranged from who the F*** cares its music, flattering, the wave of the generation and so on.........what one has done in their moment of time is theirs and theirs alone, what we have here is just no effort to create but music is what it is, musicianship is what it is we have those that excel to the finer points of their craft and we have others who are ho hum.....as far as acoustics I think Prince is phenomenal, effortless in his skills as a guitarist but it is rarely talked upon and showcased on a consistent level and then you have the stylings of led zepplin, etc so you know.......we must learn as musicians to be less general and more open minded, less cynical and more young at heart....when you find yourself talking like grandpop that told you to turn the friggin music down......either you will continue down that road or run for the hills of your open mind and go with the flow........not that you have to listen to what is out there but be in a mindframe of "This is not for me, but it is what it is to someone else". And DJ Danger Mouse will profit big time, just because of the buzz word and hip hop....don't generalize that either because what you hear now on heavy rotation is rap music and true hip hop is still alive and well but less mainstream it is made upon more beats of jazz greats and 70's inspired music which is fine because hip hop is poetic thought and expression true hip hop and it speaks volumes more when you add music which is where spoken word gave birth not just to blacks but whites if you had people enlighten you of grenwich village NY 60's hippie scene and poetic greats like Nikki Giovanni........if you don't know and using generalist terms....speak not what you know not. Just be open minded and less generalist.....True artist are less of the latter.
DiDi......
I am almost never offended unless someone is stealing my product. Other than that, I say knock yourself out.
I do find it revealing, however, that the majority of references in this thread all have to do with pop musicians. Such is the state of the art form in the early 21st century. My frame of reference is much larger.
The sad fact is that there are fewer musicians per capita than at any time in history. At one time, music was highly valued. Now it's just taken for granted. Think back to a time when the only way you could listen to music was to make it yourself or pay someone to play it for you. Like I keep saying, it's a "Brave New World."
I do find it revealing, however, that the majority of references in this thread all have to do with pop musicians. Such is the state of the art form in the early 21st century. My frame of reference is much larger.
The sad fact is that there are fewer musicians per capita than at any time in history. At one time, music was highly valued. Now it's just taken for granted. Think back to a time when the only way you could listen to music was to make it yourself or pay someone to play it for you. Like I keep saying, it's a "Brave New World."
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DiDi Dissuer
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okay.......you are broad and I am sure that like myself the rest of us are broad but we don't have to toot the horn to make it known, you can see the jest of broadness in somene's words, just as a rich man with old money doesn't go around broadcasting his riches because he is use to it, he gives it a fleeting thought, unlike the new money who has to let you know they are rich they work so hard to get there, they must broadcast from the mountain to the valley cause (IT TOOK HARD WORD TO GET HERE I MUST BE APPRECIATED, WHERE IS MY AUDIENCE DAMMIT.....IM A STAR I'AM ALL KNOWING....zen...... lol)
....But seriously you can go back as far as beethoven. Ol Ludwig was a radical in its purest form on and off the muscial chair, he was passionate about his works but also passionate about is conquests (quite the scandal but so erotic) 1803 Bonaparte Symphony was not named thus since Napolean came to power.
In his own words, "it seemed as if I could not quit this earth until I had produced all I felt within me, and so I continued this wretched life." Here was a man who chose to live solely for the sake of his art, for as long as his inspiration might last and no longer.
.... Lud, was a living and breathing individual who did took his work serious but not as serious as others did....the point is......the originators were less offended...not ALL because no on can say that but most.......many people would like to believe originators are stuff shirts, offended at best but you know what, it is not like that.....they are carefree, relaxed, quite eccentric which makes their works beautiful...they are dreamers, fantasy driven....how else do we come to many beautifully haunting masterpieces from classical, to jazz, to soul, to rock etc......their work is highly valued and it is very narrow-minded to say music is taken for granted today, because mainstream is only a small part of what is really going on...it is only popular.... such a generalist statement.......
flutist, vocalist, writer, artist, open to free expression
....But seriously you can go back as far as beethoven. Ol Ludwig was a radical in its purest form on and off the muscial chair, he was passionate about his works but also passionate about is conquests (quite the scandal but so erotic) 1803 Bonaparte Symphony was not named thus since Napolean came to power.
In his own words, "it seemed as if I could not quit this earth until I had produced all I felt within me, and so I continued this wretched life." Here was a man who chose to live solely for the sake of his art, for as long as his inspiration might last and no longer.
.... Lud, was a living and breathing individual who did took his work serious but not as serious as others did....the point is......the originators were less offended...not ALL because no on can say that but most.......many people would like to believe originators are stuff shirts, offended at best but you know what, it is not like that.....they are carefree, relaxed, quite eccentric which makes their works beautiful...they are dreamers, fantasy driven....how else do we come to many beautifully haunting masterpieces from classical, to jazz, to soul, to rock etc......their work is highly valued and it is very narrow-minded to say music is taken for granted today, because mainstream is only a small part of what is really going on...it is only popular.... such a generalist statement.......
flutist, vocalist, writer, artist, open to free expression
I agree with many of you guys in saying that alot of todays music - especially "rap" - is totally garbage. That alone, however, shouldnt make you deny an entire genre or culture of music.
I really see Music as an evolving process of sharing. If you dont think the Beatles themselves got their inspirations from their predasessors, then you are just plain old wrong. Granted, the technology to actually sample and use portions of songs wasnt available in a really usable form -and I am not a music historian either- I but seriously doubt that every single note, every single feeling, style, and song was created out of pure, unadulterated musical talent. I just dont beleive it. I hate how people attribuite quality and value to older stuff: the beatles were pop too, in their time!
That said, I understand that some 'artists' take advantage of this give and take process, and end up coming up with material that really shouldnt have ever been conceived. There is bad music everywhere. But if you pay attention to rap, alot of the interest -at least my interest- is in lyrics, not beats. I appreciate good production, and a good beat gets me goin just like any other person, but quality lyrics from a good artist are what really get me: and those are NOT sampled.
I'm not talking about p-diddy. Listen to Jay-Z's first album, and you'll hear the stories of a man on the streets selling drugs: not to look cool and "gangster," but because he needed the money to survive. Christ listen to ANY quality rapper, and you'll hear STORIES, you'll hear genuine tales of whatever it is that they're going for worded in - if they're good - extremely intriciate rap-flavored manners.
God, if you can call yourself a fan of music and, at the same time, forgo an entire genre... then you're not a fan of music.
I really see Music as an evolving process of sharing. If you dont think the Beatles themselves got their inspirations from their predasessors, then you are just plain old wrong. Granted, the technology to actually sample and use portions of songs wasnt available in a really usable form -and I am not a music historian either- I but seriously doubt that every single note, every single feeling, style, and song was created out of pure, unadulterated musical talent. I just dont beleive it. I hate how people attribuite quality and value to older stuff: the beatles were pop too, in their time!
That said, I understand that some 'artists' take advantage of this give and take process, and end up coming up with material that really shouldnt have ever been conceived. There is bad music everywhere. But if you pay attention to rap, alot of the interest -at least my interest- is in lyrics, not beats. I appreciate good production, and a good beat gets me goin just like any other person, but quality lyrics from a good artist are what really get me: and those are NOT sampled.
I'm not talking about p-diddy. Listen to Jay-Z's first album, and you'll hear the stories of a man on the streets selling drugs: not to look cool and "gangster," but because he needed the money to survive. Christ listen to ANY quality rapper, and you'll hear STORIES, you'll hear genuine tales of whatever it is that they're going for worded in - if they're good - extremely intriciate rap-flavored manners.
God, if you can call yourself a fan of music and, at the same time, forgo an entire genre... then you're not a fan of music.
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MaineExport
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DiDi Dissuer wrote:okay.......you are broad and I am sure that like myself the rest of us are broad but we don't have to toot the horn to make it known, you can see the jest of broadness in somene's words, just as a rich man with old money doesn't go around broadcasting his riches because he is use to it, he gives it a fleeting thought, unlike the new money who has to let you know they are rich they work so hard to get there, they must broadcast from the mountain to the valley cause (IT TOOK HARD WORD TO GET HERE I MUST BE APPRECIATED, WHERE IS MY AUDIENCE DAMMIT.....IM A STAR I'AM ALL KNOWING....zen...... lol)
VERY nice work. Both of your recent posts were enlightening and thoughtful. Thank you. And I especailly enjoyed this bit.
It is difficult to expand the perspective of people who see themselves as living in the most perfect of universes.
Criticism of the current scene is often met with reactionary commentary.
Regarding the value of music in today's Western world: I watched a series on PBS entittled "The 1900 House." The premise was to take a modern middle class English family and have them volunteer to live as a typical English family would have in 1900. They had access only to the products and acoutremonts of everyday life from that period i.e. foods, medicines, clothing entertainments, etc. It was a fascinating show for me because I have always been interested in history.
The first thing that was immediately apparent was how much more work it took just to live back then. For instance, the man of the house developed an infection from having to use a straight razor. The women of the house were allowed to shop at modern stores but could only buy period goods with period money. A remarkable thing occured where the women (the lady of the house and her teenage daughter) broke down and shop lifted modern shampoo, something that didn't exist until the late 1920s. They were going crazy because of the state of their hair. Life was far different then from what we know today.
This was incredibly underlined to me when they were following the wife about one day as she was doing her mountain of chores. She was in her back garden tending the chickens (apparently something many people kept in those days) when she was struck dumb by the most incredible sound she had ever heard. She described it as sublime and so beautiful that her mind couldn't recognize it for what it was. It was music. Somebody in the next house had a boom box going in their backyard and this was the first music she had heard in many weeks. She said she didn't realize how much she missed hearing music.
You see, in those days you either had to make music yourself or pay to hear it. Music was precious. They tried to get the daughter to take piano lessons but she gave up because it was too hard. The family then started paying to go see period shows. They couldn't believe how valuable they found music.
Of course, it is not that way today. Ride in an elevator or shop for shampoo and you are inundated with tunes from a PA. Go to a restaurant or bar that has music playing and watch how many are actually paying attention to it. Walk down the street and how many speakers are blaring sounds at you. People brush their teeth to the accompaniment of tunes from the radio. Imagine the outrageous luxury that would have been even for a king in 1900!
I have been a full time professional musician for over 20 years. I have seen the art and its appreciation change in a real way. A quick reality check is the number of bars and clubs offering live music. It's a tenth of what it was 20 years ago. Used to be that people were fascinated by the performance of music. No longer. Back in the day when playing a jobbing date at a wedding, for instance, there would always be a crowd watching the band. Now maybe some of the little kids will watch for a while. A music store is now where your go to buy CDs not sheet music for your parlor piano sing alongs. Heck, even CDs stores are going bust these days! People get indignant and feel their rights are being abused when they are sued for stealing copyrighted music off the net. What a world!
I have been a tenured member of a symphony orchestra, played big bands, R&B bands, salsa, jazz, chamber music, opera, ballet, TV, radio, recording sessions of all sorts, Broadway show tours, theater out the ying yang. My colleagues and I daresay myself have never sounded better. I never wanted to be a star. I wanted to make music with great players and have.
While music will never disappear, the future looks bleak. I have a couple of private students who, in other days, could have gone into carreers in music. Now I encourage them to study engineering. Music was a viable carreer choice as little as 20 years ago. It is now becoming the realm of the amatuer. They're the only people who can afford it. Ironic, eh?
Criticism of the current scene is often met with reactionary commentary.
Regarding the value of music in today's Western world: I watched a series on PBS entittled "The 1900 House." The premise was to take a modern middle class English family and have them volunteer to live as a typical English family would have in 1900. They had access only to the products and acoutremonts of everyday life from that period i.e. foods, medicines, clothing entertainments, etc. It was a fascinating show for me because I have always been interested in history.
The first thing that was immediately apparent was how much more work it took just to live back then. For instance, the man of the house developed an infection from having to use a straight razor. The women of the house were allowed to shop at modern stores but could only buy period goods with period money. A remarkable thing occured where the women (the lady of the house and her teenage daughter) broke down and shop lifted modern shampoo, something that didn't exist until the late 1920s. They were going crazy because of the state of their hair. Life was far different then from what we know today.
This was incredibly underlined to me when they were following the wife about one day as she was doing her mountain of chores. She was in her back garden tending the chickens (apparently something many people kept in those days) when she was struck dumb by the most incredible sound she had ever heard. She described it as sublime and so beautiful that her mind couldn't recognize it for what it was. It was music. Somebody in the next house had a boom box going in their backyard and this was the first music she had heard in many weeks. She said she didn't realize how much she missed hearing music.
You see, in those days you either had to make music yourself or pay to hear it. Music was precious. They tried to get the daughter to take piano lessons but she gave up because it was too hard. The family then started paying to go see period shows. They couldn't believe how valuable they found music.
Of course, it is not that way today. Ride in an elevator or shop for shampoo and you are inundated with tunes from a PA. Go to a restaurant or bar that has music playing and watch how many are actually paying attention to it. Walk down the street and how many speakers are blaring sounds at you. People brush their teeth to the accompaniment of tunes from the radio. Imagine the outrageous luxury that would have been even for a king in 1900!
I have been a full time professional musician for over 20 years. I have seen the art and its appreciation change in a real way. A quick reality check is the number of bars and clubs offering live music. It's a tenth of what it was 20 years ago. Used to be that people were fascinated by the performance of music. No longer. Back in the day
when playing a jobbing date at a wedding, for instance, there would always be a crowd watching the band. Now maybe some of the little kids will watch for a while. A music store is now where your go to buy CDs not sheet music for your parlor piano sing alongs. Heck, even CDs stores are going bust these days! People get indignant and feel their rights are being abused when they are sued for stealing copyrighted music off the net. What a world!I have been a tenured member of a symphony orchestra, played big bands, R&B bands, salsa, jazz, chamber music, opera, ballet, TV, radio, recording sessions of all sorts, Broadway show tours, theater out the ying yang. My colleagues and I daresay myself have never sounded better. I never wanted to be a star. I wanted to make music with great players and have.
While music will never disappear, the future looks bleak. I have a couple of private students who, in other days, could have gone into carreers in music. Now I encourage them to study engineering. Music was a viable carreer choice as little as 20 years ago. It is now becoming the realm of the amatuer. They're the only people who can afford it. Ironic, eh?
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DiDi Dissuer
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Vimy I understand your point but one should never say the future looks bleak or for that matter encourage students to go into engineering. Life......it is full of repeats.....the surge of good music will come back, just as fashion has, just as fighting for rights (women, social, political)....The Beatles Work Is Highly Regarded for those that care to remember or research history. Staying on the topic we just had a gentleman tell us of the infusion of works and it snowballed into some very interesting dialog, I love this kind of stuff and opening myself up to others thoughts without attacking them and I think we did quite well....very mature- still I guess I am just easy breezy....and I feel it is still a form of flattery, just as ol wierd al does his parody and it use to be regarded as appalling and then in time it became a symbol of flattery to artist to have him spoof their music......we must not give up on good works coming from all forms of music....we must encourage....we all can get a lil cynical the older we get but if we keep checking inside to our Peter Pan Syndrome we can just accept whatever it is for what it is and just when it becomes redundant to the lack of music, someone will emerge and bring it right back where it needs to be.......people will support PBS still, people will continue to bring something to this thing we call music.......just wait on time.....it repeats and it never fails.......
The saga is ending. It takes hard work and dedication to achieve. Its the easy way out now. Appeal to the lowest common denominator.
As the song says, "You never know what you've got 'til it's gone."
It's going. The long line from Palestrina to Coletrane. It's fading away never to return. A "Brave New World" awaits. Cost effective and profitable. And boring.
As the song says, "You never know what you've got 'til it's gone."
It's going. The long line from Palestrina to Coletrane. It's fading away never to return. A "Brave New World" awaits. Cost effective and profitable. And boring.