Q45 Oil Pan R&R advice

[elwesso]

Tangalora.

I sucessfully finished pulling the engine from my Q45... Let me make a couple quick notes...

Just forget about those bolts on the cross member without air tools... I busted out the impact wrench, and it saved so much time and LOTS Of effort.... I LUV air tools

I took a BUNCH of pictures for you, and ill upload them when I get home, as I dont have adequate software on my laptop'

Even a very long breaker bar just wont do it.... Air tools, gotta have em, and gotta love em....

Just so you know, my wrench couldnt get off those bolts for the motor mounts... Theyre on there really tight, and the egnine is still attached to the crossmember...

[911/Q45]

It may just be the angle, but it looks like that nut has a hole around it and doesn't really hold the crossmember on at all. If it does, a Gearwrench might do it, if they make them that large. Otherwise, the lower control arm will probably have to come off.

[elwesso]

Tomorrow ill take a picture the subframe to see if it was necessary to remove.. I removed it, and I really wanted to since it was a great excuse to use the impact wrench.... But I do remember noticeing a hole there too, but that would make it just a bolt into the frame, with no apparent purpose?

[tangalora]

I do remember noticeing a hole there too, but that would make it just a bolt into the frame, with no apparent purpose?

I'm following you and taking your advice all the way.Here is a closeup (as close as I can get) of the hidden crossmember nut.

We can see there is definately a hole there but I agree, why else would thatbolt exist if the nut didn't hold the front engine crossmember to the frame?

I'm leaning toward believing the Nissan engineers didn't see the need for a double layer of metal so they cut away the first level but left the secondlayer of steel for the nut to hold the crossmember to the frame with.

So, I await your autopsy results with interest.

[tangalora]

It was a great excuse to use the impact wrench....

Following your lead, I bought, earlier today at a garage sale, a 220 volt 4 horsepower 20 gallon 125 psi Sears compressor and an air impact wrench (for twenty bucks each).

Normally tools don't let me down, but, this one failed me miserably.I hope it was just something I've done wrong.I'm totally unfamiliar with air impact tools so please advise me here.

Shouldn't the air impact driver have been able to remove wheel lug nuts?It wouldn't even budge them. Once I hand-loosened them, it spun them off with ease.But, I had to do the hard work.What am I doing wrong?

Since it's off topic, I posted to the "Engineering Talk" forum asking what I did wrong (you can answer there if you like): http://www.nicoclub.com/zeropo...90368 "www.nicoclub.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=90368"

The 220 volt compressor motor seemed to work fine (after I changed the oil) as it output up to 115 PSI reliably (based on the output regulator gauge). The tank gauge read 125 psi.

The specs printed on the tank indicate at 40 psi, it puts out 10.3 scfmwhile at 90 psi it puts out 8.5 scfm.

The 50 foot hose that came with the compressor is kinda smallish (3/8?).The impact gun seems to have 4 settings (see photo on the noted thread).

I'm wondering if impact tools garner more torque with CFM or with PSI?That is, should I use lower CFM (higher PSI) or lower PSI (higher CFM) to get the most torque?Also, which setting is the most torque (1 or 4)? (I didn't feel any difference.)Is the hose too long (50 feet) and too thin (about 3/8 OD).

What do YOU use to generate enough uuumph to unstick crossmember nuts?That is, what am I doing wrong with this setup?

Note: you can post the answer to the other thread as it's not really an oilpan R&R question, per se. But, I was hoping to follow your lead & impact those nuts off the crossmember.

I need advice 'cause I never used these kinds of tools before.

[DAEDALUS]

I posted in your Engineering Talk thread.

Here are some choices for impact wrenches:http://www.harborfreight.com/c...ype=S

[tangalora]

I posted in your Engineering Talk thread

I think it's great that people like I am don't have to feel too stooopid (and embarrassed) to ask these kinds of very basic tool questions as I did here and in http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=90368 ("www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=90368").

The NICO community is just fantastic (I just hope I can contribute as much as I gain)!

[DAEDALUS]

LOL! I've always wondered what Dennis' avatar looks like. Very fitting.

[tangalora]

I've always wondered what Dennis' avatar looks like. Very fitting.

He's the only one who didn't have an avatar that I wanted in the question mark (as it's the sum total of all the folks who've helped me in the past).

Coincidentally, this collection seems to be the most helpful bunch of guys for any set of Infiniti Q45 posts (based on a quick manual thread survey I ran today).

I didn't want to leave Dennis out and I wanted something fitting, yet not too bold. This is what I came up with (we can easily change the colors if necessary).

[squeefoo]

It's not a stupid question ..If you just don't know. I have no idea where one could find this info, even on the net, what search parameters would it fall under?

Yes the hose is too long, if 20' reaches try that and they're cheap -and 3/8" is fine. Look at the hole in each end, less than 3/8" I bet.The 2 things I saw in the pic were a long extension, those absorb the "torsion spikes" from the gun, by not allowing all the twisting forces to reach the bolt head. Use the shortest extension possible if at all. Impact sockets don't stretch (ever so slightly -but everything counts) when the twising starts. Took me awhile to figure this one out -an old timer had to tell me.

Putting fresh oil in the gun is a plus. Put it handle up and put some oil (trans fluid works in a pinch) about a teaspoon where the air goes in, depress the trigger and let it sit for a few minutes to loosen any gunk, the put a rag in front of it where the air comes out, and pull the trigger. The rag catches the ensuing mess.Congrats on getting that thing off. PS My Grandma used to say "you can't know what you don't know."

[AlabamaDan]

First let me tell you how jealouse I am that you have air tools! I grew up with a huge compressor and lots of air tools growing up. Is that small compressor and tank sufficient to run tools? That's why I've never looked into it before. That could be the problem, just not enough air to run the air gun.

I like Q45tech's new avatar! He's like Merlin! I hope he downloads the pic and loads it as his avatar! As far as the cool question mark, I'm just happy to be included!

[tangalora]

Monday morning update. I gotta run to work but you deserve the courtesy of an update.

I can't budge the nuts on that crossmember. Not one! I tried every yoga-like position I know, pushing against the frame, pulling on the wrenches, etc. Unfortunately for me, not only did the air impact wrench not budge any nuts or bolts, but most of the time I couldn't use it as the angles were too severe.

Plus, the transverse link horizontal arm MUST come off (to access the nut underneath), but I didn' t have any 19mm box wrenches (mine only went to 18mm) so all I had were sockets that I couldn't get the air gun to or that the 1-foot length of my 1/2 inch socket wrench wouldn't budge a micron.

So, what do I do when I'm in deep trouble?I do some research ... then ... I go shopping!

IMPACT TOOLS:I picked up an impact socket set (hoping the extra rigidity will help).I added three different impact extension lengths.Plus a funny-looking pole-in-a-tub impact universal joint (for access).

AIR GUN:I bought a quart of 30 weight oil (as multi-viscosity just won't do according to my research as it carbonizes under extreme pressure).I bought an oil-can to put about an ounce of the SAE 30 API SL single-weight in the air gun (as it's almost certainly dry as a bone).I think the oil filler hole is in the side of the gun (see photo below).

LEVERAGE:I bought 2 different lengths of breaker bar (they didn't have anything longer).And, for insurance, three 30-inch lengths of pipe (1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 2 inch ID).

WRENCHES:I picked up a 19mm/17mm combination box wrench but I needed two (one to hold the nut and one to twist the bolt ... hmmmm... or is it the other way around?) so I picked up an entire additional set which also included 20mm, 21mm, 22mm, etc.

Gotta run to work but please advise how to get enough uuumph to get those gosh drat darn nuts off!!!! $%#@!$#@$$$ !

[911/Q45]

It helps to be bigger. If you haven't got it apart before Saturday PM me and I'll stop by on my way through SAC.

[squeefoo]

Did you spray all the exposed threads with PB? Really helps.

Yes, sometimes you have to loosen the bolt by hand first. Pipe works the best, while holding the very end -avoid jerking the handle/pipe if its on stands as is yours, for obvious reasons. Another thing is to make sure you are braced against the car itself! using your legs to push, don't just push/pull on the car while it's on stands (obviously) so you don't push it off (easier than you think, but don't worry). You will prob. hear a "torque spike" as it lets go, it's just the rust/ etc. shearing off and may be loud. Put on gloves -in case it pops off or loosens real quick -to save your knuckles from grinders (OUCH). Then if it's loose use your "revived" air wrench to save labor. Keep applying PB Blaster, a little goes a long way. Hopefully none break on you.

The "rattle gun/impact wrench/hammer wrench/zip gun" could be weak from under oiling, under use, dried lube, or stuck vanes. Which is why putting ATF down the air intake to loosen grime is a plus, as above: handle up, approx. 1 tsp in, then pull the trigger for a few minutes (rubber band) to allow the ATF to soak into the "guts" and loosen the stuff. You might try this a time or two. Use a rag in front since oil/junk will spray out.

19mm is just about the same as 3/4" just a little off.

Hold the bolt and remove the nut, then remove the bolt. Sometimes you have to hit it with a hammer, on the end without upsetting the threads (put a nut on for a few threads), to get it started in the right direction (out). Use PB.

[elwesso]

An impact wrench should ahve **no problem** with those...

I did it, and it took them off like they were on like nothing..... I couldnt hardly budge them with a breaker bar...... Didnt use any lube.....

[squeefoo]

Since I have no idea of what specifically anything looks like out there. I offer general guidelines for removing large body/suspension bolts, I can't see what the gun looks like, or even whether it's got enough juice, or if the bolts are rusty or not. Or what anyone knows already. I personally haven't had any problems taking anything off my Q.

However, to be of the greatest service here; I assumed to cover general aspects based on about 25 years of working on everything from bicycles and motorcycles, to every type of car and semis. I'm sure everyone's experience will differ.

Since Tangalora (or whoever reads this in the future) hasn't done too much of this before -some general large bolt advice was in order, to cover the bases, so time is not wasted due to lack of this possibly overlooked knowledge.

[tangalora]

Did you spray all the exposed threads with PB?

A neighbor ambled by today (my "operation" seems to be the talk of the neighborhood lately, based on the dog walkers & baby pushers who go by every day asking how'zit going).

This friendly soul must've heard me cursing up a storm 'cause he handed me a dinged up can of Kano Labs "Sili Kroil". I almost burst out laughing when I saw the bright orange can. I thought it was some kind of left-over halloween trickster magic-in-a-can.

Boy, did I stop laughin' fast!

When I sprays' me some of that stuff on the motor mounts and grab the newly oiled impact gun with the tank regulator set at 90 psi using the new impact sockets, u-joints, and extensions, setting the gun regulator to #4 and ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... off comes all four nuts to the two motor mounts. Kewl!

Likewise, the transverse-link-to-torsion rod two nuts and the one nut holding what appears to be a bushing to the sway bar also whirred right off the transverse link assembly. Nice!

http://www.kanolabs.com ("www.kanolabs.com")1000 East Thompson Lane, P.O. Box 110098, Nashville, Tennessee 37222-0098 800-311-3374Silikroil aerosol - $8.00 each canSilikroil aerosol- case of 12 cans - $69.95 / case

[tangalora]

... loosen the bolt by hand first. Pipe works the best ... make sure you are braced against the car itself ... You will prob. hear a "torque spike" as it lets go,

While the resurrected impact wrench handled the motor mounts and torsion bar nuts with ease, it still wouldn't budge the 1 nut/bolt attaching the transverse rod to the crossmember & the 3 nuts holding the crossmember to the frame (on each side).

To remove the frozen horizontal torsion bar bolt, I had to wedge the new 19mm box wrench between the bolt head and the frame and then place the 19mm combination wrench on the nut. As you intimated, I then braced my body against the frame and slowly and evenly (but forcefully) pressed with my thighs forcing my feet onto the end of the longer combination wrench, all the while holding the frame with my hands and pressing my back into the concrete as if a machine gun was sending bullets overhead.

They didn't relent without complaining ... but, after a series of quick, closely spaced loud and agonizingly sharp cracks!, Screech! Ahkh ... ackh ... ackh, that darn bolt loosened right up and spun out by hand![/.b]

By nightfall tonight, it wsa the same with the other side (after a mistaken attempt in the wrong direction, accidentally tightening the bolt even further).

[tangalora]

As suggested by NICO members, once I had access to all ten front engine crossmember nuts, I first disconnected the engine from the crossmember.

Interestingly, the passenger-side motor mount required an 8 to 10 inch impact extension, while the driver-side mounts were best spun off with a 6-inch extension.

Here's a shot of the driver-side moto mount, sans the two 14mm nuts.

[tangalora]

... ALL the suspension is coming off...... The upper links, tension rods, and so forth... The lower (transverse links?) have to be removed too because there are 3 bolts each side holing it on...

I recommend the following sequence to remove the transverse link:- First: remove the one 14 mm nut holding the "stabilizer connecting rod" to the forward portion of the transverse link- Second: remove the two 17 mm nuts holding the "tension rod" to the forward portion of the transverse link- Third: remove the one 19 mm nut and four-inch long bolt holding the transverse link to the front engine crossmember

BTW, I was scared that the transverse links (which look so very beefy) would violently swing down (due to some unknown spring action) and crush me when I removed the 4 nuts and 1 bolt holding it on ... so, for the next poor soul removing and replacing a Q45 oil pan, I can tell you that it just meekly drops down a bit easily allowing you to hand push it down and away from blocking the otherwise inaccessible center crossmember bolt.

Here 's a late-night shot of both transverse links now safely out of the way.

[maxnix]

Motor mount looks shot to me, but I am certainly not an expert.

[tangalora]

Motor mount looks shot to me, but I am certainly not an expert.

Interesting. Very interesting.

Of course, it's nice to replace everything on the car, but, I had decided NOT to replace the two VH45DE motor mounts (as long as they were good) as they added a few hundred dollars to the bill. However, if they are shot, then, of course, I'll replace them (while all the parts are off).

The engine did NOT bounce when it was running; it was smooth as silk.

The mount may look stretched in the photo ... but remember the three legged transverse engine support bar is tightly bolted above which is, in effect, pulling the engine upward. (I didn't want to bother you guys too much so I didn't ask the question I had which was HOW TIGHTLY to tighten the pull on the two engine slingers). I made them pretty tight so that the engine actually rose in its seat off the motor mounts BEFORE I went under the car.Since it takes a few days for Joe to ship parts, I should ask this group if the mount looks obviously in need of replacement.

[tangalora]

#7 Removes the "lower control arm" . This and the bolt at the front of the tension rod can be removed and both ends pried out so the assembly can be swung out of the way. They don't hold the subframe on, but will give you a little slack or room for lowering.

Here's a shot of the transverse link (i.e., the "lower control arm" above) swung down and out of the way, with the associated dismembered parts named in yellow.

Notice the three remaining 17 mm nuts holding the front engine crossmember to the frame are all that remains (on each side) this late evening, for me to remove to begin lowering that crossmember and then gaining access to the 18 oil pan bolts (one of which is still hidden beneath the "engine gusset"). Does this sound like a reasonable assumption?

Since I couldn't get the alternator off, I will try to get to the hidden oilpan bolt from the side of the gusset. Also note that I deviated from procedure by only removing the ONE lower bolt on the "steering lower joint". I'm hoping the force of the weight of the crossmember will detach it from that portion of the steering lower joint. (Does that sound like a reasonable assumption?)

Also notice the circled nut (the one toward the rear of the car) which has a much longer tapered bolt inside. This one bolt necessitated another trip this evening to the store (just before they closed) to obtain a second set of impact sockets, this set being deep sockets. A conventional length socket will NOT fit around that nut safely and securely (the other two are fine for conventional length 17 mm sockets).

[tangalora]

An impact wrench should ahve **no problem** with those... it took them off like they were on like nothing..... I couldnt hardly budge them with a breaker bar...... Didnt use any lube neither.....

Unfortunately, I couldn't budge the remaining three (on each side) 17 mm crossmember nuts with (my apparently still lousy) air impact wrench. The new 18 inch breaker bar & 18 inch kinked-head breaker bar didn't work either.

However, what worked surprisingly easily was adding a 30 inch length of 1 inch inside diameter steel pipe to the breaker bar (covering the whole breaker bar so as not to put undue force upon it).

Archimedes had us in mind when he exclaimed in 230 B.C., "give me a lever and a place to stand, and I will move the world."

In fact, two of the three (on each side) remaining 17 mm nuts easily spun loose (with a series of complaining groans) with this tremendous leverage (even for a small person like I am).

That third nut (the one toward the rear of the car) required the deep impact sockt, which I only picked up at the store just before they closed and after I cleaned up and put everything away. So, only one 17 mm nut is left to be removed (using the deep impact sockets and an 18 inch breaker bar plus a 30 inch length of steel tubing if necessary).

[squeefoo]

Excellent !! You're almost there. Pls note the electrical connector at the steering rack and the previous info on the lower steering joint removal. Congrats !

[tangalora]

Huh? Nobody said anything about an electrical connector that needs to be removed from the steering rack. It's not in the FSM directions, but then, not much is. (Frankly, I don't know how mechanics work on any vehicle they've never been trained on --- there's soooo much left unsaid in the shop manuals.)

Without folks like you guys and without good manuals, I wonder if mechanics just remove stuff and hope that works ... then remove more stuff and keep hoping until it does work. I can't see any other way (without specific on-the-car training classes or folks like you guys.)

Anyway ...

Along with the impact deep socket set, at the store I picked up two bottle jacks (I'm guessing they may help hold the crossmember while I remove the remaining two 17 mm nuts with the deep impact sockets) which were amazingly inexpensive. Coincidentally, I picked up a 24 inch pry bar (in case I really must remove the alternator; and, just for me, a pair of coveralls which I always wanted (I'm tired of ruining my jeans and tops).

With only those two 17mm nuts left, here's the list if items NOT done: - alternator is still on the car (albeit it's unbolted) - compressor is still bolted in (hiding the engine gusset bolts) - engine gusset is still bolted in (hiding one oilpan bolt) ---------- - "steering lower joint" is still on the lower steering arm (the lower bolt has been removed only because I couldn't get to the upper bolt) - the squeefoo hint "electrical connector" at the steering rack is still on - the steering rack remains bolted (4 bolts) to the engine crossmember -----------

I still have a few questions (which will help others too).Q1: Is my assumption reasonable that removing only the lower bolt of the steering lower joint will work? I couldn't get the upper bolt off. I'm assuming the crossmember is heavy enough to pull the lowest shaft out of the joint at the bottom.

Q2: It remains to be seen whether the engine gusset really has to be removed (I'm hoping I can get to that last hidden oilpan bolt from the side once the crossmember is moved out of the way).

Q3: How on earth am I going to keep the crossmember from falling down if I do not remove the steering rack from the crossmember (should I just bite the bullet and remove the remaining four bolts holding the steering rack to the crossmember?) It seems the crossmember, being very heavy, will be in my way the whole time I'm working on the oil pan if I don't remove it from the car.

Whew! I'm still a long way off. I think Dennis was right. This is a big job (for me, anyway). In hindsight, I would never have tackled this if I knew what I know now. But, I'm in the quicksand now and I plan on crossing this river!

I'm at work but leafing through my archived photos (I've taken more than a thousand), I see what appears to be a steering connector (see photo below).

Is this the connector that needs be removed? Are those the three bolts holding it on to the rack?

[maxnix]

The engine did NOT bounce when it was running; it was smooth as silk.

That's not the test. If it is in tune, it will not bounce.

The test is to rev it in neutral and see how much it torques in the engine bay. FSTB are a good indicator if the engine hits it. If I remember, more than an inch and a half rotational deflection is enough to indicate the need for new motor mounts.

In any case, after 14 years, I think it is safe to assume the time has come. Q45tech has replaced his 2 or 3 times in 270K+ miles in that time.

[tangalora]

FSTB?

[maxnix]

FSTB?

Front Strut Tower Bar (or Brace). Optional accessory. The Stillen one was a good indicator since it was within 1 inch of the engine.
Modified by maxnix at 12:22 PM 11/16/2004

[AlabamaDan]

I'd like to comment on a few things said today.

First, someone mentioned that this hasn't been a waste of time talking about how to get bolts off. I think it was very valuable. I know I've learned alot about air tool maintence in this thread.

Second, the motor mounts. IMHO, replace 'em. You'll probably never have the opportunity to do again without going through something similar. It's like pulling the plenum off, might as well replace the hoses. I know that the guys at T3 said I could use new motor mounts.

You mentioned that you wonder if people just keep pulling things off until they get it right....that's what me and my uncle always had to do. In those days there was no Internet group to ask and if you think Infiniti's FSM is bad, try some of those aftermarket things!

Looking back, besides carrying somewhere to have a pro do it, do you think it'd been easier to pull the engine?