Q45 Oil Pan R&R advice

[DAEDALUS]

Not completely comforting. The numbers work but maybe I'm a worry-wart at heart. This is a static calculation assuming everything is standing still and set up perfectly. How can you guarantee that the 2 bolts will carry equal loads? This is why I took one out and assumed that at some point during the operation one of them might possibly bear most or all the weight. 250 lbs is not a conservative number. Is the engine even 500 lbs or more? Is the weight distributed evenly, or biased to the front or back? What effect will the threads have at the point of highest stress--i.e., will the threads act as a sharp corner with a stress concentration factor of 50%?There is a reason a 3000lb-rated jackstand can support way more than 3000 lbs.If you go ahead with it I strongly recommend fully loading the support completely while leaving the crossmember bolts partially threaded, and then pressing down on the engine with all your weight, and visually inspecing the bolts to make sure everything looks good and there's no visual deflection.

The deflection in the problem is just under .006". I believe the formula is W*L^3/3*E*I.

[tangalora]

Understood. I had a lot of trouble finding any metric bolts stronger than 8,8 (even after checking out a few local parts places). Maybe I'll stop by the Infiniti dealership today to see if they have some in stock. I actually don't like the bolts I have right now anyway (40 mm long) as they are about 15 mm too long.

What happened, when I screwed them in, is they ground to a halt about 10 threads into (about 3/4 inch) the heads. So, they are now sticking out about an inch, with the chain held on with a small-bore fender washer. I'd prefer to bolt that chain tight to the engine so I need a smaller bolt (but a longer one than is stock for the ground wire bolt).

If I use a 30 to 35 mm bolt, then that should at least reduce the moment on the cantilever.

I just couldn't get that equation to work. Presumably this is deflection w/o bending (elastic deflection) .. otherwise the yield equation would paly a role.

I very much appreciate your help. You're not only helping me, but, you're helping others (as I try really hard to provide full details for the next DIY).

This weekend, I'll be flying to Austin for a family member's wedding, so, I won't be able to work on this wonderful learning experience 'till I return.

In the meantime, notice I followed everyone's advice to remove the plastic cowl coverings; it's a good thing I did as they were hiding the true support points. (These photos were taken last night so they are a bit dark.)

How does the makeshift chain-slingersetup look at the moment?

[DAEDALUS]

What happened, when I screwed them in, is they ground to a halt about 10 threads into (about 3/4 inch) the heads. So, they are now sticking out about an inch, with the chain held on with a small-bore fender washer. I'd prefer to bolt that chain tight to the engine so I need a smaller bolt (but a longer one than is stock for the ground wire bolt).

If I use a 30 to 35 mm bolt, then that should at least reduce the moment on the cantilever.

The shorter the bolt the less bending stress. But once you no longer bottom out on the bolt, and you torque things up properly, there is no bending stress at all--only shear and tension. This is the job of the slinger, and why you're always supposed to use a properly attached slinger, lift fitting, or even just bolt the chain directly to the enigne. The location of the lift point makes this difficult on the VH without the slinger.

Oops..That's the equation when L = a = 1"; things cancel out. There will always be some bending when you apply a moment. Whether the stresses induced approach the yield point is the concern.

[911/Q45]

Use Daedalus' slinger. He can get it to you promptly and you'll be doing things exactly by the book. Why take a chance, you've waited quite a while already, what's another day or two?

[mixatonia]

Looks good (from the photo). The peg is on the cowl support arms where it should be.

If you just bolt the chain tight to the engine with the bolt sticking out just the width of the chain link (what is it, maybe 1/4th. inch), then you've just reduced the forces on the bolt by the fourth power. I would bet a chain bolted to the engine is as strong as the OEM setup. Yet it has the ability to sway even better than the OEM part. Go for it!

[Q45tech]

T3 uses a strong chain bolted to block.........this is getting ...................125 post [2.2 months] to deal with something so simple, yet so dangerous the first time you do it.

I am more concerned with you doing the job without a 4 post lift and screw jacks.........where you can jump out of the way fast if something goes wrong. Gravity gives you 6 feet in 0.6 seconds and there is always some resistance to a free fall.

[dentone]

Tangalora.... I posted a couple weeks ago and mentioned that I decided to JB weld my holy oilpan after the Infiniti mechanic recommended it.

I am glad to say that I have not had any problems and have driven over 1K miles since the fix.

1) I JB welded the whole closed, 2) Slapped on some Belzona3) Cut out a piece of aluminum and molded it around the corner that was damaged4) JB welded the aluminum patch over the whole and5) Put some more Belzona over all of it.

Total time... 30 minutes actual labor, however I had to wait several hours for the JB weld to cure and the Belzona to dry between steps.

It is probably stronger now than before the accident.

I had never heard of Belzona before all of this, but it is some amazing stuff. If you go to thier website http://www.belzona.com/oil.html you can see all of its applications. I'm not sure where you can buy the stuff, my friend is a mechanic for a chemical company and thats how he got it, he uses it on the job. He has also used it on his circle track car when the water jacket on his engine block sprung a leak.

[maxnix]

The problem with these solutions is they do not correct for any pan deformation around the oil pickup area for the pump. Like the rest of the engine, this is a fairly tight tolerance, and if not preserved to OEM design standards, the engine can be starved for oil and wear prematurely.

[PoorManQ45]

Um..... Didn't I recommend that you JB weld it back on the first page of this thread?

I guess it takes an "experts" advice for you guys to hear it.

Anyway. Good job. Hope it lasts.

[elwesso]

The problem with tangalora is that the oil pan is dented enough that it needs replacement... If it has a hole thats no problem, but if its dented, oil starvation could happen, and you might need to get a new Q45 like me

[tangalora]

I just got back briefly after a visit to NY after my trip to TX so sorry for not responding sooner.

1. I loved Dennis' picture. Made me laugh. Humor is excellent medicine. He's right also. It's a risky job. That's why I asked NICO first. That's why I bought the right tools. That's why I ordered the right parts. I'll certainly put jack stands under the engine (probably under the crankshaft) where I can & I'll jack up the transmission too. One of the best reasons for doing this is to help the next pour soul who has to do the same job. If I don't explain the step by step, with photos, who will? One mistake and, splat! If we leave it up to others to guess, that just might happen. So, I go slowly (very slowly) (as I'm timid). But, timid keeps me alive too. For now anyway.

2. JB Weld was the 1st thing I bought. Never heard of Belzona (will check up on that). I'm ecstatic it worked. I had previously posted I thought it could work but I was worried about the longevity & prospect of breaking down in death valley at high noon. I guess I'm more timid than you. Besides, I already bought the oil pan (it's sitting in my garage along with the new belts & new fan blade & assorted new bolts for the modified engine slinger). And, my old pan is dented (although those dents may be old as I tend to run over small things like curb dividers when I don't see them looking over the windshield with this big hefty Q).

3. Speaking of the makeshift engine slinger, I think I might take Daedalus up on his kind offer. But first, I'll check today or tomorrow (swamped at work as nobody does my job when I leave so it just piles up on my desk) with Joe to see if the ETA has changed yet on the one I already paid for. (I already picked up all sorts of differently sized 10mm bolts so as to be able to tell the next poor soul exactly what length is best.)

I'll post a reply tonight when I find out more information. Hope my attached humor isn't too macabre.

[mixatonia]

T3 uses a strong chain bolted to block.........this is getting 125 post [2.2 months] to deal with something so simple

Two excellente points about q45tech's comments above.

1) Based on the evidence only here found nowhere else everyone must be using chains bolted to the block because very few slingers are purchased. You wouldnt know this by looking at the FSM. And some are dangerously close to killing themselves as you yourself noted. Even T3 may be dangerously close according to dads calculations.

2) While this thread is indeed long & varied nowhere else in the world is this information as far as I can tell. For example where else on the internet or in the FSM does it show how to sling this engine. Nowhere but here. Where else does it show that the engine slinger part is not part of the engine? Nowhere but here. My FSM shows the slinger as part of the engine. Mechanics don't even know it exists so they use chains. Where else does it show the calculation which shows chains to be dangerous under certain known circumstances? Where else does it show the weak point in using chains? Where else does it show that the alternative method (JB + B) solves some problems. Nowhere else. Where else are the actual steps shown to remove the oil pan. Partially in the FSM and partially in Hanes but not anywhere near as indepth as right here. So it took 250 posts to get here. Fact is we are here and that is pretty far. There is more to go and I dont care if it takes another 250 posts to get there. Its not like it isnt an interesting jorney.

So I think it is a virtue that this thread is so excellent that nowhere in the FSM or in the internet is this information available. Maybe its in a TSB but nobody has come forth so I doubt that. Prove me wrong and thats even better.

[tangalora]

You need a special engine support frame ... cross shaped with legs that sit on cowl, front support and each inner fender.Where to hold [support] the engine with chains is the trick.

Wooo hooo! The reclusive Q45 front engine slinger finally arrived!

Just as I was about to call the boys at Scottsdale Infiniti or Daedalus to take him up on his kind offer, I spied an inconspicuous eight-dollar freight-charged plain brown package sitting on my doorstep. I don't even know how long it was there (as I enter the house from the rear). In the box was (just) the long awaited nine-dollar slinger from Joe. (Surprisingly, Scottsdale Infiniti couldn't get the requisite $1.58 bolts (BOLT-HEX 08171-0221A) and washers (WASHER SPRING 08915-34010), so I'm still on my own for those. I vastly prefer obtaining the right parts from Nissan (and I'm mildly surprised a simple bolt would be out of stock ... I mean ... is it that special a bolt?). Yet, armed mightily with Daedalus' well-thought-out & simplified mechanical-engineering calculations, I think I can be safe with two store-bought 10mm x 1.5 hex-head bolts of an 8.8 metalurgical grade based on my previous Internet research.

The (I think minor irritating) question arises as to the proper bolt length & washers.

Based on my measurements (see photo below), the original 15mm long 9-thread ground-strap bolt fits nicely in the 4mm thick 7-inch-long front engine slinger with 7 threads to spare into the block (not counting any washers). So, 15 or 20mm long bolts seem comfortably appropriate. Anything longer will bottom out in the head causing the unwanted cantilever which Daedalus clearly showed is a mathematical no no (as it adds a power of four to the imposed bolt off-axis stress).

I have a question about the spring washer. What is that? Is that just a washer? Or is it something special? I'm initially inclined to simply use a 'regular' washer (I'll lose a thread of grip into the head but gain on-axis strength for the bolt according to what I learned on the Internet about washer effectiveness).

What washer would you use?

I also am curious about the cryptic marking on the original Nissan bolt (see photo).

What does that "6" (or is it a "9") on the bolt indicate?

I suspect it indicates the bolt's grade, but, it doesn't seem to correspond to what I've learned on the Internet for metric bolts (which use two numbers separated by a period).

I suspect most mechanics don't even ask these questions, so, please be patient with me. One thing you can assume is, that by spending effort publically helping me, you can thereby help many other poor souls at the same time or in the future who deign to tackle this task on their own for the sake of doing the job right.

BTW, notice they spelled Slinger "Sliger" in the Nissan sticker in the photo below. Maybe that's why they sell only two or three every fifteen years.

[tangalora]

Oooops. Forgot to append the photo in the last reply. Sorry.

-- Summary -- Q1: What is a "spring" washer and what would you use to replace it?Q2: What is that "6" marking on the original bolt supposed to indicate?Q3: What's so special about these parts to make them so painful to obtain?

[911/Q45]

I vote for a regular washer, any metal will spread the force out adequately.

[DAEDALUS]

Yeah most or all 10mm washers will do, though they probably meant a split lock washer. The slinger is thick! Bolt grade doesn't matter very much now. It's likely very few people order these from the dealership, so few are stocked. Had the same problem getting heat shield bolts from Mitsubishi. They just don't stock them cause you can get them from a lot of places.

[elwesso]

Tangalora... WHen you are complete with this, can I buy the slinger from you, or borrow it?

I have to remove my Q45 engine here sometime

[tangalora]

... When you are done, can I buy or borrow the slinger? I have to remove my Q45 engine sometime ...

Sure. I keep all my tools forever (as I've said before, tools are better than diamonds as your best friend), so borrowing is preferred. That's why I still have tapered pickle forks (from replacing a pitman arm on an old 60's Dodge), a welder (patching a NY rusted-out 70's 280Z rocker panel), assorted Reed & Torx screwdrivers (various & sundry headlight adjustments), a hand impact driver (try replacing an old Honda 250 CB N clutch without one) fuel-injector tester (testing my 80's 300Z), dial gauges (measuring rotor runout on the 90's Q45), flare-nut wrenches, hose pliars, etc. Even this oilpan r&r job added a gleaming white set of OTC engine support bars to my beloved toolbox treasures.

I should warn you I can't promise when (or if) I'll ever finish this job as it has been two months and, together, we've made many important yet still theoretical discoveries. As a practical matter, the surprisingly low price of the hard-to-get slinger ($8.66) is about the charge for one-way shipping ($8.50), so, it seems the more pragmatic approach (if folks have the time to spare) is to call Joe and have him send it ahead of time. If you call now, and it takes three weeks, you'll still probably have it before I'm finished.

BTW, for those following in our footsteps. I bought two new 10mm x 1.5 (8.8 grade) bolts today, this time 20mm long (my fourth experimental set) to replace the one 15mm long #6 (whatever that means) bolt holding the ground strap to the engine head. I bought two 'regular' washers (to replace the fender washers I had previously purchased to hold the chain in place). (They're starting to remember me at the store since I've been coming in so often for various sized bolts & asking a lot of questions about the various grades of steel.)

When I assembled these bolts & washers on the slinger (see photo) about 8 threads remain to engage with the threaded bosses on the head. (Note in the previous picture, I had placed the bolts in the slinger backward; this error has been corrected in the photo below.) Also note that one could create their own slinger tool simply by holding a 8-inch long steel plate, 3 inches wide, in a vise, and bending the plate at two points, the first 1 inch up, the second 2 inches past the first bend, then drilling two 12 mm holes exactly 5 1/8 inches apart (center to center) in the first one-inch bend - and then boring out a 1 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch oblong hole in the end of the third five-inch segment. That's a lot of work for a nine-dollar tool, so, of course, that home-made approach would only be feasible if the slinger wasn't available from Joe. The simpler chain approach (with a 25 mm long bolt & fender washers instead) seems also (barely) acceptable but a LOT less safe if the bolts stick out any distance from the engine & if their metalurgical grade isn't one of the highest available as previously covered in our calculations.

Still curious, does anyone know what that "6" indicates on the original Nissan bolt?

[DAEDALUS]

The Infiniti slinger is much stiffer than a homemade plate of the same thickness would be. Again, I value is higher due to the compound curves in the metal.

The FSM refers to 3 different marks on graded fastener heads...4, 7 and 9. The 9 indicates the bolt is graded 9T, and takes a standard torque of 43 foot-lbs for a 10x1.5mm bolt.

[tangalora]

I didn't realize the number signified the to-be-torqued value (nor did I think this info was in the FSM) so I feel a little stoopid on that. Thanks for being kind and patient with me, as always. I do ask a lot (but I try to give back as much as I can too so hopefully it's worth your while!).

Also, some of my prior pictures (including the last one) still show the bolts going into the slinger the wrong way, so again, I re-corrected it in this photo (see insert below).

For others to benefit, the perfect bolts to hold the slinger to the head appear to be two 10mm diam x 1.5 threads/mm x 20 mm long at 8.8 grade with a corresponding washer.

Here, for the next poor soul, is a photo of the engine now properly slung (because I wish I had this photo BEFORE I started this trek). I don't think this is explained anywhere else on the Internet.

Notice I had to remove all the air-intake components up to the throttle body (I think that's what it's called) in order to tightly attach the front engine slinger.

Also notice I covered the throttle body opening in saran wrap to keep the elements out in the time it takes me to complete this job.

And, notice all radiator plastic but the fan shroud removed so as to reliably determine the strongest spot for the engine support (note that the complete shroud had to be removed at a later stage as will be explained later).

[tangalora]

Here is a photo of the engine properly slung showing the spot on the cowl I chose because it looked like the strongest section.

If this is NOT the strongest section of the cowl, please advise!

[tangalora]

Here is a shot of my Q45 support and the transmission safety support.

With chocks at the rear tires, I jacked up the car at the crossmember and placed two jack stands on the "frame" and lowered the Q45 onto them. These I plan to be the main supports.

For safety, I added ramps (notice they are situated BACKWARD) under each front tire (assuming the wheels need not be removed).

To support the transmission, I placed a single jack stand at the bell housing for the flywheel.

Does this 3-stage Q45 support from the underside seem safe to you?

[tangalora]

Here is a closer shot of the proposed transmission support jack (under the flywheel bell housing).

Does this look like the best way to support the transmission?

[tangalora]

Here is a clean shot of the underside of the 1990 Q45 with the fan and fan shroud and all belts removed.

Notice the circled "engine gusset" overshadows one corner of the oilpan. Upon close inspection, it appears all but one of the bolts holding on the oil pan could be accessed without removing the engine gusset, but, that one bolt will require the gusset to be removed.

To remove the gusset, I will need to remove the air conditioning compressor; and to remove the compressor, I will need to remove the alternator.

[tangalora]

What else do I need to do to remove the alternator?

As circled in the photo below, I removed both bolts on the outside of the alternator (after removing all three crankshaft pully belts). But, the alternator won't come off.

I'm sure there are wires somewhere. Are they behind the alternator somehow?

What more do I need to do (than remove the two bolts) to remove the alternator from the car?

Please advise.

[DAEDALUS]

If you cinch up on the lift points real snug I think you can leave the tranmission mount alone. I haven't yet had to remove the oil pan, but it looked to me like you could get to the bolt near the compressor with one of these:http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr...96000I couldn't get by without jointed sockets.

Things are looking good for your project.

[DAEDALUS]

The alt body sandwiches the gusset bracket really snug. See where the flange mates up on the right side, opposite your ratchet? There's another one on the back side of the alt. Again, really snug to ensure the alt does not move. You just have to scrap with it for a while. Rotate the alt in place to clear the gusset, then pull forward. Disconnect the wires on the back as soon as possible to minimize stress on them.

Again, I'm not convinced you have to remove the alt, but if so, hope that helps.

[tangalora]

Can you confirm the alternator is held on by two bolts only?

If I may paraphrase what you said (so as to ensure I understand it), are you saying the alternator is held on only by those two bolts (plus a snug fit).

Therefore, since both bolts are out, I should be able to wiggle the alternator out of its snug fit? Or maybe bang it out with a hammer. Or maybe leverage it out with a crow bar?

And, if the field & output wires are attached, they must be attached in the rear, right?

Will those wires be removable once I wiggle the alternator out of its snug fit?Please confirm if you can as I'm a bit confused what's holding the alternator in there (as I already removed the two bolts and it didn't come out when I tried).

[tangalora]

I'm not convinced you have to remove the alternator

Your help so far (as has been everyone's) has been accurate.

I only think the alternator needs to come off because the FSM says so ... and I stared for an eternity at the underside of the oil pan (hoping beyond hope that I didn't have to sequentially remove the alternator, a/c compressor, and engine gusset) and I am mostly thinking the gusset has to come off.

Why?

Because it seems (to me, anyway), there is at least one oil pan bolt which might be inaccessible without removing the engine gusset. See the photo below which points out where that inaccessible bolt is (I couldn't get a perfect shot of it as the light wouldn't penetrate).

It seems the a/c compressor blocks removal of the gusset; and the alternator blocks removal of the a/c compressor. Drat.

That's why I ask whether only the two bolts hold on the alternator?

[tangalora]

Here is a closup which still doesn't show the blocked bolt (it's hidden by the engine gusset), but, it might show the situation (as I see it) better than the last picture.

I think the gusset blocks (at least) one bolt of the oil pan.The a/c compressor blocks removal of the gusset (I think).The alternator (I think) blocks removal of the a/c compressor.