Q45 Oil Pan R&R advice

[tangalora]

Is it easy or hard to remove & replace a Q45 oil pan?

Today, in a rush to 8am traffic school, I ran over a six-inch high crosswalk jutting out in the school parking lot. The good news is the 90 Q45 gracefully lept over the 6-foot wide crosswalk curb and landed on the other side before I even knew what I had run over.

The bad news is that nose-down landing scraped three foot-long half-inch deep gouges in the black macadem thereby causing all my crankcase oil to leak out profusely, drip by drip, unbeknownst to me as I sheepishly parked 100 feet thereafter, oblivious to my newfound dilemma.

By the time traffic school ended at 5pm, my poor 14-year old Q was nearly bled dry - having trickled in front of the car in a 5-foot wide slippery puddle as a draconian message to me to be more careful next time.

After an emergency 5-quart 10W40 SL transfusion, I limped home (less than ten miles) and drove up on ramps to take a look with a flashlight.

The three asphalt gouges were apparently caused by two oil-pan corners and the oil drain plug. The oil pan is ruined. Two cracks are at least an inch-long each (but very thin, with rough edges). What are my (hopefully inexpensive) options?

Will a gas tank patch kit adhere to an oil pan? Or do I have to remove and replace the oil pan? Is it easy or hard to remove & replace the oil pan? Can I get to all the bolts? Is a cork gasket involved? What parts do I need to buy?

I really hope this isn't the death knell for my 1990 Q45 (because I'm as low on money as I've ever been, what with the cross-country move and all that).

I need your expert advice on oil pan R&R hints.

Thanks,Tangalora

[DAEDALUS]

Ouch! Taking off the oil pan will require supporting the engine from above because the suspension crossmember is in the way and will have to be removed. Great time to replace the motor mounts. Gasket is RTV. I really hope nothing else got damaged or cracked.

[maxnix]

Tangalora, the oil pump pickup is right on the bottom of the oil pan, and any dent can lead to starvation.

I hope you didn't damage your engine, but please, next time flatbed it to where it needs to be repaired.

[Q451990]

If you have comprehensive insurance coverage, this might be the time to use it... I guess a crosswalk could be considered a "road hazzard." You're really looking at a lot of labor and a need to have the car well above jack stands and ramps.

Did the oil pressure light ever come on?

Good luck!

Heath

[tangalora]

I kept my eye on the gauges very closely. Not a blink. Even the coolant remained steady (long ago, in my 280Z, I merely left the oil filler cap off and the resultant coolant temperature rise was what told me I had a problem which was solved by replacing the oilfiller cap). No funny sounds whatsoever.

I don't know how to tell if the 1990 Q45 oil pump pickup is damaged; is there a simple test? Since the oil pan seems punctured only on the corners, I'm going to hike down to the parts store today to see if the gas tank putty will work. I vastly prefer to have a car this week (life seems so much more hectic without wheels).

That's bad news about the "suspension crossmember " having to be removed first. But, maybe that's hidden *good* news in so much as I'll learn more if I find I have to remove and replace the Q45 oilpan. (I circled in the photo below what I *think* you mean by the suspension crossmember.)

If I rent a winch for a day (I've seen them outside the parts stores on the sidewalk for years) - I think it's called an engine winch ... where do I hook it up to hold the engine from falling down? Can't I just support the engine from the bottom?

Once I hold the engine up, if I just unbolt the "suspension crossmember", can I _then_ directly access the oilpan for removal? (I'm still in shock so I didn't yet check with Joe on how much just a 90 Q45 oilpan costs nor if he has it in stock over there in Scottsdale ... but I'll get to it today or Monday after riding my bicycle to work.)

Where are the Q45 motor mounts?

I hopped under this morning to look for rubbery "capacitors" (At college, long ago, I once 'assisted' on the repair of a 70's Dodge 318 V8 with both mounts chopped in half (well, I prepared lunch, which in those days was probably just beer, wine, hot chocolate and pizza) We simply put the car on ramps, supported the engine with a floor jack, and unbolted the old motor mounts (which were as simple as two metal plates with bolts, sandwiching an inch-wide rubber tongue.) The hardest part, if I remember correctly, was the weather, with wind & rain at about 40 degrees or so (no snow luckily) and losing the sunlight an hour or two before cleanup on a busy side street.

The comp coverage was a good idea I hadn't thought about. It won't work for me (nothing but liability for years) but it might work for other readers out there, so I commend the suggestion.

I'm kinda' depressed in that I really didn't plan for this ... but I'm trying (slowly) to come to grips with myself to solve this (yet another) stumbling block.

[Q451990]

That's the crossmember. I really think professional help may be in order on this one, and you know how much I love DIY. When I had simiar damage on "Q1" due to a road hazard, they had to remove the crossmember, a/c Compressor, etc. I think it was a 10-15 (real) hour job. If you had a lift, I'd say go for it, but I don't think you can do much with jack stands. Ramps would be out of the questions because I think you'll have to remove the wheels when you pull the P/S rack (with the crossmember).

Heath

[Q45tech]

You need a special engine support frame ...........cross shaped with legs that sit on cowl, front support and each inner fender.Where to hold [support] the engine with chains is the trick.

We only charge $500 [7 hours] to swap pans plus pan.

[PalmerWMD]

Thats terrible luck..

Is Jerry Tucker close?

Fred..

[maxnix]

Good eye, Fred. I thought she was still based in Armonk. Where there is a flatbed, there is hope!

[tangalora]

I just came in from cleaning my baby's bottom (the engine underside of my 1990 Q45) to answer this one.

> Is Jerry Tucker close?I'm not sure who Jerry Tucker is (but he's easy to find). We're in the same state. He's apparently 500 miles south of me.

[PalmerWMD]

They are far.. but a lot closer than T3 and supposedly in the same class.

Anyone know of a Cali shop of that caliber closer to him?

Fred..

[tangalora]

I'll call the local dealership tomorrow, after biking to work (the little-used bike tire is flat so I'll stop at the bike store on the way).

Today I walked to the auto parts store to see if any engineering in a bottle might work. The parts guy, to his credit, suggested, due to the oil & heat, a MIG welder. I hadn't thought of that.

All I have are tanks and I'm not that good at it, having taken a night class many years ago. I once welded the passenger-side rocker panel on my rusted-out 280Z with oxy-acetylene & ended up having to splice the melted wrist-thick harness wires back together, color by color for hours (but I didn't know about NICO in those days).

On my way back, I detoured to the crime scene, hoping to run forensic analysis to determine cause & effect. See the photo below.

FACT: A 1990 Infiniti Q45, moving at parking-lot speed, will jump a lee curb, cross about six feet of walkway, and then land on the other side an entire car's width from the downwind curb. .

EVIDENCE: The lee side curb was slightly chipped, but the downwind asphault sustained three foot-ling half-inch deep gouges, causing mortal oil panl injury to said Q45.

In the photo below, the arrow shows the direction of travel. Note the splatter of motor oil at the point of impact, and continuing on a straight line thereafter into the parking spot of said Q45. The cans of GUNK engine cleaner mark the furthest travel of the wounds to the macadem as the Q45 suspension reflex lifted the two-ton baby off the pavement.

[maxnix]

Was this a speed bump or a parking stop? So sad. Glad you are back, but sorry about the problem.

[AZhitman]

I'd also make sure you get her in for an alignment and wheel balance as well - That HAD to hurt.

Tangalora, as always, your posts are entertaining and informative - You write beautifully.

Wish you were on board more often.

[DAEDALUS]

So the car bottomed out on the oil pan, not at the suspension?

[tangalora]

QUESTION: Do you think a welding torch will ignite anything in the oil pan? (One option is to try to weld it; but not if it's too dangerous to do so on the car.) Is there anything inflammable just inside that oil pan (i.e., like the oil pickup itself)?

Another option might be engineering magic in a tube (I bought 5 different types of gunky stuff at the parts store so far - I'm not sure which will actually work). How hot does an oil pan get anyway? One goes to 350 degrees F; the other to 400 degrees F. I suspect heat only gets to about 200 degrees F - but the oil itself is, I think, the real problem with using tube-based JB-Weld or Permatex magic materials.

Assessing the obvious method, according to the local Infiniti dealership, the oil pan is $391.99 plus gasket material, bringing the parts list to $398.87 before the 8 percent sales tax kicks in (every bit hurts). Labor was quoted at 7.6 hours, at $120 per hour, adding $910 to the punch line. About $1,400 in toto (what's a 1990 Q45 with 135K miles literally worth?).

Joe, on the other hand (as usual) can't be beat. He's giving the oil pan away for much less (thank God for Joe and his kind) plus ten dollars for shipping. Problem is, Joe can't perform the R&R from there in Scottsdale.

Any other ideas?

Quote »Was this a speed bump or a parking stop?[/quote]I'm not sure what to call "the evil thing that destroyed my oil pan". It seems so hard to miss, from the photos. It must've jumped out at me. There was no stop sign, per se. Just a big fat crosswalk, which was empty as was the parking lot (7:55am am on a Saturday). The long lot roadway curved left so I leaned to the left to trim a few yards off the curve. Boom! Bounce. Rebound. Before I knew what was happening, the Q45 flew over the walkway, landing a bit ungainly on the other side. I looked back and didn't see a thing behind me. So I kept going. The Q couldn't have been moving over 40. Maybe even much less. Dunno (speedo doesn't work, remember). And, besides, it was just an empty parking lot. I didn't really even know what had hit me 'till much later.

I'm not sure what components actually bottomed out (how would that change things)? I don't have the photo with me (left them at work since I'm biking there and back 25 miles round trip) so I can't show you. but, one photo show the Q45 seemingly bottomed out twice based on a set of gouges I missed noticing prior. It seems the pavement hit my Q45 once on the upswing side (relatively speaking); and once agin upon gracefully returning to earth a full width of a parking space later. The upside pavement shows widely scattered parallel gouges (presumably from something in the rear of the Q45); the offending curb is slightly chipped from the oil pan corners and drain plug; the downside leg has only the aforementioned three closely spaced gouges with a tell-tale oil track splatter starting just ahead of the end of the newly created scratch marks and continuing on in a path to my parking spot for the day.

From that information, does it appear the suspension or the oil pan bottomed out?

P.S. I'm slowly coming to grips with this situation; I guess I have to change my avatar to a bicycle

[DAEDALUS]

The oil itself would be my biggest concern for igniting. Surely you'll keep an extinguisher close at hand if you go that route. Hopefully your oil gets above 212*F, but not too much hotter...maybe 250*? Brakleen is your friend.Any chance the gouges were not caused by your car? Fresh debris around the wounds? I just didn't think the Q would actually bottom out on the oil pan on what looks to be a pretty flat surface, curb notwithstanding.

[maxnix]

Even if the oil doesn't ignite, it will coke when heated to welding temperatures. You can't drain it all. Coke is not good for lubrication.

Please hark back to my post about the oil pickup to pan clearance being critical and not that great in clearance. Not replacing the pan is a poor gamble.

Was the non-functioning speedometer a precipitating cause for traffic school appointment?

[tangalora]

Was the non-functioning speedometer a precipitating cause for traffic school appointment?

Yep. (How'd y' guess?) I was 'jes mindin' my own business, on my way to work, skippin' down a little-used wide open residential street when I 'spies me an officer on a motorcycle behind me. I slowed down to what I 'guessed' to be a good 25 or 30 mph rate of speed. Turns out the lowest I crawled to was 40 on his Ka band radar. Shows you what a lousy judge of velocity I am. The good news is the traffic school purgatory erases the ticket from the insurance-company record. I can't believe how low west coast insurance is compared ot the east. It's utterly amazing the difference. For the same car, the same person, the same number of miles, etc. ... but I digress.

Back to the gas welding ... my biggest worry (understandably) is pushing the oil past the flash point with the heat of the torch. Once it starts burning, it just might ignite leftover gasoline fumes in the engine. Then again, there might not be enough air in the engine for anything to burn (gas or oil). Dunno. Anyone have experience in this department?

Q: What's the best way to vent an engine of potential gasoline fumes?

Unfortunately, I can't crank the Q45 but I can let it lie with the fuel line disconnected at the filter, for example. Dunno if that will help.

The other option is the blue and orange tubes of J-B Weld J-B KWIK and the epoxy & fiberglass Permatex Radiator Repair Kit I picked up at the auto parts store. Q: Has anyone been successful on an oil pan with either of these two concoctions?

Just in case I choose this route, I've de'gunked the engine pan each night when I arrive home from work - then I'll Brakcleen the final run to remove as much residue as I can. Hopefully, the goop in the J-B Weld or Permatex magic tubes stick to the oily pan ... but the penalty if they don't is severe enough to warrant caution. It might give me the week or two I need to find & pick up a new used vehicle though.

[Q451990]

It might give me the week or two I need to find & pick up a new used vehicle though.

Think before you go that route though... Divide the $1400 repair bill by a few months and you're back to a pretty economical ride. I don't normally recommend taking on credit card debt, but sometimes it's OK for a few months. I'd just hate to see an otherwise good 90Q head off to the scrap heap over a gouged oil pan.

Heath

[tangalora]

»Divide the $1400 repair bill by a few months and you're back to a pretty economical ride.

Good point. That's the nice thing about loans; they spread out the pain over time.

I'm a lot more sane now that I've borrowed an old friend's spare car. I hadn't seen her in a while until she ran into me while I was biking home from work late yesterday eveing (commuting 2.5 hours a day doesn't leave much time for Nico fun).

My good old friend (better than I had realized) practically insisted she lend me her car (I would never have asked). Our only problem is liability (I have a history of getting speeding tickets & we discussed that) so I had to promise to look at the (wow, it's working) speedometer periodically & to stay within the road's posted limit.

Wheeee! What a difference a (any) set of wheels makes (to my attitude). I'm not as depressed anymore. I'm even kinda' surprised how much it matters (to my sentiments). Seems shallow. I thought I was 'better' than that, somehow. Alas. I still prefer my Q to the econobox I borrowed (not to disparage my friend's largesse).

Back to the oil pan (this is the mechanics' forum). So that others may benefit from this situation, I found a shop nearby which will do the 7.1 to 7.5 hour job for a flat fee of $500 labor. Another shop said they'd look at the crossmember to determine the estimated cost, and their rate was a low 80 dollars an hour (low as compared to Infiniti at 120 dollars an hour).

Both prices are sans oil pan. I don't want to quote Joe's prices (that's his job ). But I will say that he makes it easy to order from him (even with the shipping time). Plus he's a nice guy (which is a bonus), spending his time to work with those less fortunately endowed in mechanical knowledge such as I. This new dealership is nice, but, they seem to look down upon me when I come in with a 90. Maybe it's just me, but I never felt that way at the dealership back east. Oh well ...

Now that I have breathing room (mentally & physically) once I order the Infiniti Q45 oil pan, I can then decide whether to do it myself (probably will take me a few weekends) or farm it out to the other guys.

[Q451990]

I found a shop nearby which will do the 7.1 to 7.5 hour job for a flat fee of $500 labor. Another shop said they'd look at the crossmember to determine the estimated cost, and their rate was a low 80 dollars an hour (low as compared to Infiniti at 120 dollars an hour).

I'd ask both if they have any Q45 experience. If I remember correctly there's a special tool that's used to separate the oil pan prevents gouging the aluminum block. You want to make sure they're aware of that... of couse in the real world, even at Infiniti dealerships, they probably just beat it with a hammer or something... Just something to ask about.

Glad to see that your Q is going to stay rolling!

Heath

[PoorManQ45]

You could try to weld the pan, just try to remove as much oil from the pan as possible. A good welder could make the pan as good as new, if not better.

Also, JB weld is some amazing stuff, it really can repair a cracked engine block(don't ask how I know). I know it could withstand the heat of the oil, but I'm not sure if it would adhere to a slick oil pan.

[PoorManQ45]

I'd ask both if they have any Q45 experience. If I remember correctly there's a special tool that's used to separate the oil pan prevents gouging the aluminum block. You want to make sure they're aware of that... of couse in the real world, even at Infiniti dealerships, they probably just beat it with a hammer or something... Just something to ask about.

Heath

when removing the oil pan, after you remove all the bolts, you just pull on it until it comes off. No tools neccessary for that part.

[maxnix]

A new pan will maintain the correct clearance for the oil pump pickup. The labor to properly repair the old pan and check its fit (how about its operation?) would quickly exceed the cost of the new pan. And then you would have an old, repaired pan. Just not worth it.

[louiegz]

Nice to see you have some wheels until you get your Q fixed. Fixing the Q is a much better option than getting an econobox. A POS car would have cost you more that the repair of your Q. Under a grand sounds good if they know what they’re doing. I’m also glad because if you don’t have the Q any more, there would be no reason for you to give us your excellent threads that you seem to write on NICO. Personally, I must thank you. If it wasn’t for that super thorough post on the fuel pump that you wrote, I would have never been able to do the job. You saved me about $400 compared to the dealer doing it. Thank you Tang. Let use know when you get the Q on the road again. I know cash is tight, but it might be a good time to do the engine mounts at the same time. See how much joe sells them for.

[maxnix]

Engine mounts are nothing compared to the labor. Louiegz is right, at 14 years, they need rplacement, as probably does the transmission mount if it hasn't been done recently. Get the exhaust bracket too.

Additional labor for these parts is nil.

[tangalora]

»Additional labor for these parts [motor & transmission mounts & exhaust bracket] is nil.

I always wondered about that.

If (say) a 1990 Infiniti Q45 oil pan R&R is 7 hours book and the crossmember needs to be removed, mechanics don't charge any extra labor time to remove the crossmember (I believe).

Yet, what do mechanics charge if a transmission mount R&R is (say) 6 hours book (all by itself); and if exhaust mounts are (say) 5 hours book (all by themselves) ... yet it takes (say) only an hour extra to do each (once the crossmember is already removed for the oilpan R&R).

What does a shop mechanic typically charge (for labor):a) 7 hours + 6 hours + 5 hours?orb) 7 hours + 1 hour + 1 hour?orc) ?

[DAEDALUS]

Book time includes all subtasks that need to be performed to complete the job. Any work that overlaps between 2 jobs only gets done once. An unscrupulous shop could charge (a) of course. Remember that labor time is usually negotiable, especially if you're in the know about such things. I can't see how any shop, ethical or not, could charge 2x for a job that the customer knows will only get done once.

[tangalora]

labor time is usually negotiable, especially if you're in the know about such things

Good. Then I'll try to get to know these things.

Q: Does anyone know the 1990 Infiniti Q45 motor mount book rate (how much is overlap with the oilpan replacement)?

Q: What about the 1990 Infiniti Q45 transmission mount & exhaust bracket shop rate (with existing oilpan removal overlap)?

Q: Is there a way to look these up ourselves on the Internet so I don't bother you?

So many questions ... sorry ... so much to learn. If I visit the Q45 mechanic armed with this information, maybe I can save an hour or even a few hours (at $80/hour every bit helps when we really need it).