Q45 Oil Pan R&R advice

[tangalora]

A second question (besides how to disengage the alternator from the car after removing the two bolts) is the location of the mysterious "steering lower joint".

According to page EM-11 of the 1990 Q45 Factory Shop Manual (diagram SEM866C), the instructions simply say: - REMOVE STEERING LOWER JOINT

Why? Where is it?

The diagram in the FSM appears to show something splined near a bent rod (which might be a torsion bar or something like that), attached near the "frame" and the exhaust (this diagram confuses me to no end).

What is the "steering lower joint"?Why would it need to be removed?

[911/Q45]

I believe the steering lower joint refers to the steering column to steering rack connection. It needs to be disconnected so the rack can be removed, as the rack runs across the bottom of the engine along with the crossmember that you'll remove.

[DAEDALUS]

Scribe-mark the orientation before removing it so it goes back the same way.

As far as the oil pan bolt, I thought they were all visible at least. If you can't see it from any angle then you probably can't get to it.

The alt is held on with the 2 bolt only. The friction on the bracket is what's holding it up. Leverage is a better friend to electronic equipment than hammering is.

[elwesso]

If there is such a thing as fighting pictures with pictures, I intend on doing as such...

Attached is a picture of the steering joint..... Have some lube handy, and spray it on both ends..... Easiest if you pull out and move it up on the steering shaft..... For orientation purposes, this is on hte drivers side..... The metal thing is the drivers side exhaust manifold...

The reason it must be removed is because it connects the rack to the car, and the rack will stay attached to the suspension cross member when you take it down......

I removed my alternator this weekend too... What a pain in the ***! I twisted mine counter clockwise... basically what I had to do is get under the car, took my breaker bar, and banged it so that it slid up..... like Robert said you just have to yell, scream, cuss, and yank to get it out..... THen you have those PITA connectors once you get it out......

You might as well remove the tires, because ALL the suspension is coming off...... The upper links, tension rods, and so forth... The lower (transverse links?) have to be removed too because there are 3 bolts each side holing it on..... I almost got my engine out this weekend, gonna have to go back up.... Made my slinger from the chains and so forth....

[elwesso]

I also do mirror what robert said about the alternator... Get something long, and "tap" (forcefully?) and keep moving it... I tried moving it clockwise, and that doesnt work... Must go counter clockwise!!

[AlabamaDan]

I haven't read all the posts, but one old trick to fix a cracked oil pan was JB Weld. Perhaps not the best long term fix, but when you're low on money and not wanting to pull an engine....

[elwesso]

IF you havent seen hte pics, it DEFINITELY needs replacing.....

[tangalora]

If there is such a thing as fighting pictures with pictures, I intend on doing as such... Attached is a picture of the steering joint.

SO THAT'S WHAT IT IS!

I've been looking for the "steering lower joint" in all the wrong places.I've been looking from the underside FRONT of the engine. You can only see it from the underside REAR (looking from behind the driver-side tire).

Once I KNOW what it looks like (from your photo), I can identify it on page ST-11 of the 1990 Q45 FSM (diagram SST800A) called the "steering column lower u-joint" also shown partly disassembled on page ST-15 (diagram SST511B).

Whew!

Do I understand you correctly in that you suggest I remove the UPPER bolt and not the LOWER bolt on the lower steering u-joint (see photo below)?

Are you sure the wheels and steering links all have to come off?This is not mentioned in the FSM oil pan removal procedure on page EM-11.

[elwesso]

They want you to completely remove it... however, you could get away with just undoing it from the rack.... Youll hvae to undo both bolts, in order to be able to slide it...... You probably *should* remove it entirely (slide it up the steering colum, the part at the top of the joint) to slide it off the rack part, and then pull it completely off.... Very simple.....

Now, on to your other thing.. Yes... It says "REMOVE SUSPENSION MEMBER" or something to that effect. Goto the section on ENGINE REMOVAL.. It has you remove all those things to drop the suspension member... If you go under there and look at all the stuff thats attached to the suspension member (crossmember) youll see what Im talking about!

[tangalora]

As far as the oil pan bolt, I thought they were all visible at least. If you can't see it from any angle then you probably can't get to it.

You might be right. Lucky the next soul who tries this because we will have found all the gotchas.

PLAN B:There is one oilpan bolt which seems to require the removal of the "engine gusset" (which requires remmoval of the a/c compressor, which requires removal of the alternator, which I still can't get off the car) even after wiggling it and prying it for an hour).

So, from a wishful thinking standpoint, maybe we possibly might be able to remove the oilpan without removing the engine gusset. I didn't really want to remove the compressor anyway if I didn't have to (what do I do about the high pressure a/c hoses connecting to the compressor, for example).

After studying the situation from below with a flashlight, it seems that once the front engine crossmember has been removed, we may be able to access that one problematic bolt hidden by the engine gusset from the SIDE (where the crossmember was). In effect, we might be able to sidestep the engine gusset removal procedure altogether (which leaves the alternator right where it is, practically glued to the engine block).

On the suggestion of patching the oil pan, we considered that in the very beginning but ditched that idea for reliability reasons. Upon close inspection, I find multiple holes and dents and gouges (see photo below), so, I think replacement is a wise decision.

If I start plan B, I can begin removing the crossmember as soon as I disconnect the steering (after marking the joints). I'm going to study the crossmember and see where the bolts lie. Any suggestions which ones to start with?

[Q45tech]

Timed Byron today on a 92 Q45 oil pan and motor mount replacement.Drove on lift 2:45 PM ...............drove off lift 5:43 PM handed customer keys.

2 hours 58 minutes shows what is humanly possible on a 6 shop hour job when you've done hundreds and have all the tools. I did point out the elapsed time at each stage. So let's say the average tech might take 4-3/4 hours pushing it and a relaxed Byron 3-1/2 hours.

You must have a lift, I cannot imagine the time on jack stands without air tools.

[elwesso]

The crossmember bolts are on mucho tight (for good reasons) youll want a impact wrench...

What youll have to do is have a jack under the cross member AS WELL as the engine slung, ebcause the cross member is quite heavy...

There are 6 bolts holding it on... Youll see the tie rods, and where it mounds to the frame of the car... There are 2 "hidden" ones that the lovely FSM fails to tell us about (or at least there were on mine)... On the transverse link (aka lower control arm) there is another bolt..... Bare minimum I think the tension rods will ahve to be unbolted from the member, and the upper links taken off.....

Unfortunately you have a long way to go.. I think anyway, if the suspension doesnt have to be removed,but im nearly sure it does.... In order to have access to the member bolts......

[tangalora]

So let's say the average tech might take 4-3/4 hours pushing it and a relaxed Byron 3-1/2 hours.

I don't know who Byron is, but, I coudn't even DOCUMENT the steps in 3 1/2 hours!

Taking part names from FA-4 (diagram SFA860A) in the 1990 Q45 FSM, I am hoping the "Transverse Link Assembly" and the "Tension Rod" on each side don't have to be removed in order to drop the front engine crossmember.

So, the next big question is whether or not the "transverse link assembly" can remain on the Q45?

In the photo below, I'm sure the two bolts circled in yellow must be removed.If we can just remove the one bolt circled in red, then perhaps the rest of the bolts (circled in blue) and the transverse link assembly can remain.

What will happen when (if) that red-circled bolt is removed.Will the transverse link assembly violently swing down?

(Note: The car is supported on jack stands on the 'frame' but it's still on wheels which are in backward-facing ramps for extra support.)

If we can't get away with removing the two yellow circled bolts and the one red-circled bolt (on each side), then all those blue-circled bolts will have to come out (which is double the effort as far as I can tell).

Any suggestions for removing the red-circled bolt below?

[elwesso]

Byron is the Sr tech at T3... Probably the best tech in the country for the G50 Q!

see the problem is (You cant see it unless you remove the wheel) that there is a bolt under the transverse link... You cant see it from the bottom.....!!! This other bolt would be about in the center of where your red circle is..

If you simply remove it there nothing it will do... It wont flop down since theres other stuff holding it up (upper links).. You *might* be able to just remove that, ubt then there are other things to remove too....

I guess its worth a shot, but remember safety is a key priority, as you have basically one chance... I will wait for others to chime in (robert) but I am pretty sure that the suspenison will need to come out.....

[squeefoo]

Tangalora After seeing the picture above: It might be necessary to replace the oil pickup tube FSM p. EM 43 "oil strainer" just in case.......

[tangalora]

There are 6 bolts holding it on...There are 2 "hidden" ones,

How many bolts actually pertain to just the crossmember itself?

I can easily count twelve (six on each side) potential candidates I can see:I'll post three pictures showing (for each side): a) The two aforementioned bolts holding crossmember to Q45 body. b) The two engine mount bolts (they certainly need to be removed). c) The two closest-to-the-centerline bolts (do they need to be removed)?If we add the hidden two bolts, that makes 14 candidates for removal.

Of these, how many actually need to be removed?

[elwesso]

1,2,3,4,7... I believe you can leave the steering rack on the cross member..

However, while its out you should replace your rack bushings.....

Basically, you have to remove the engine from the cross member, and hte cross member from the Q45.....

[squeefoo]

#7 Removes the "lower control arm" . This and the bolt at the front of the tension rod can be removed and both ends pried out so the assembly can be swung out of the way. They don't hold the subframe on, but will give you a little slack or room for lowering.

BTW: Are you removing the entire subframe or working around it? If you are removing the whole thing, it appears the outer tie rods must come off as well (from looking at mine).PS: Use lots of lube on the steering joint PB-Blaster, or WD-40 since the splines usually rust together a little; removing the bolt completely and prying apart (a little) with a screwdriver in the slot should give it room to slide off.
Modified by squeefoo at 4:39 PM 11/9/2004

[elwesso]

Squee... There is ANOTHER bolt UNDER there that holds the cross member onto the frame..... So that has to be removed to get to that other bolt......

I mirror what he said though.. Just rmove that bolt and move it out of hte way.. that way you dont remove tie rods and other stuff like that.......

[squeefoo]

Squee... There is ANOTHER bolt UNDER there that holds the cross member onto the frame.....

Didn't (can't) see that, haven't had mine off. The rack mount sugg. is spot on. This is like reading IRS CFR 26.

[tangalora]

I can only work on the car weekends, which allows me the luxury of trying to understand you guys (you talk big woids' I don't know) so we can learn even while I'm not working on my Q.

Remove the engine from the cross member, and the cross member from the Q45

GREAT ADVICE (nicely summarized!). What I'll try is to remove first the 2 nuts (on each side) holding each of the motor mounts to the front engine crossmember.

Those 4 nuts (two on each side) should disconnect the engine from the crossmember, right?

I'll put a jack stand under the front engine crossmember (for safety) as suggested by Wes; and then (after removing the two easier nuts holding the crossmember to the frame), I will either remove the one sidewise bolt holding the transverse link assembly to the crossmember or I will remove the front wheels and see if we can access the mysterious hidden bolt without disconnecting the transverse link assembly (see photo below).

Those 6 nuts (three on each side) should remove the crossmember from the Q45 (correct?)

The total number of crossmember nuts (or bolts) seems to be 10 (right?).

while [the crossmember is] out you should replace your rack bushings

This is probably good advice but I have no idea what you are suggesting.I presume you mean the rack & pinion steering has a bushing (rubber thingey) somewhere? Looking at the steering section of the 90 FSM, I only see mention of a "center bushing" but it seems the "gear and linkage assembly" has to be disassembled to get to it (page ST-19, diagram SST472A). The fact it's a "center" bushing implies there are "edge" bushings elsewhere, but, I see none in the "Steering System" chapter.

BTW, while I was looking up Wes' bearing suggestion, I finally realized the reason the "steering lower joint" is called that is there is a joint above it in the steering column (presumably called the "steering upper joint") which separates the steering column upper shaft (connected to the steering wheel) to the steering column lower shaft (connected to the steering "gear and linkage assembly"). If I had known all this, I wouldn't have asked where it was as I would have found it myself. I feel so stooopid sometimes.

Are you removing the entire subframe or working around it?

What's a subframe? I don't see anything called that in the "FA" front axle section of the 1990 FSM? I don't even understand the question so I can't help answer it yet.

Use lots of lube on the steering joint PB-Blaster

PB-Blaster? That was a new one to me. Google pointed me to the web site http://www.pbblaster.com which espouses a bust-the-rust penetrant oil better than WD-40. I'll see if the local auto shop sells it.

This is like reading IRS CFR 26

Apparently, from a google search, that's the Internal Revenue Service, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 26 which (I guess) is a complex set of rules? (www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble. ... 99926)It's off topic, but, the set of rules seemed so complex that I couldn't even summarize what they pertained to (they seemed so broad).

[elwesso]

Alright, let me see what I can do... Ill go in order.....

Before you start work, have the enigne jacked up.. I dont know what would happen if you try and remove the motor mount bolts with the engine not supported (may fall slightly.. Causing dents and other bad things?).. So as a rule of thumb, have the engine supported AT LEAST partially before you start taking stuff off "the iron cross of death".....

I woudl put a jack under there, not a stand... You want to be able to lower it, because once you get it all unbolted, its still VERY heavy with all that crap still attached... So put a hydraulic jack you can easlily lower down and pull out from under the car.....

Rack bushings: Take a gander at section ST... On my 94 Q45 FSM its ST-12. It shows a diagram of the steering rack (model PR26SE). THe rack bushings are called "rack mounting insulators"..... Since this all comes down with the cross member, they will take about 5 mins to replace if its out of the car..... Look at the section that starts out REMOVAL and INSTALLATION...

Sub frame- antoehr term for the cross member..... Its bolted onto the main frame (basically you could say the body of the Q45) and its a "frame" that holds the powertrain......

PB blaster is good stuff.. I think advance sells it.. Its expensive, but effective..... $7/ can, pick up a couple youll use it all the time...

[squeefoo]

The CFR statement was not an insult, but a mild teasing, born of my wholist/reductionist outlook. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way.

PB Blaster works even better when you presoak everything you plan to remove. Just take a few minutes and a flashlight and shoot everything, especially trying to spray the thread side. If you can't see the threads then flood the area this helps a lot. PB goes a long way I think only one can is needed.

As Wes said: "iron cross of death" also "K frame" - "subframe" - "engine cradle" - "crossmember". Sloppy slang/nomenclature on my part. Are you going to remove it completely or lower and work around it?

[elwesso]

squee... You gotta completely remove it.......

[llamabeta]

I'll put a jack stand under the front engine crossmember (for safety)

I recommend you place another floor jack under the cross member perhaps with a 2x4 similar to the width inbetween to help distribute the weight. Depending on how you are disconnecting the steering rod from the rack, you may actually end up with one side dropping lower than the other. It will be at a tilt and this is definitely not safe. You'll have to hammer down the driver side to get the rack removed from the steering rod. The adjustability of a jack for this is helpful.

Is it really not possible just to lower the frame low enough to get clearance? Even on my KA24DE with a pan that spanned from front to back, I was able to manuever it out.

[Q45tech]

Still don't see how anyone can do this job safely without using a post 4 point lift! What happens if you use jackstands and find this out [what I am saying is true] how will you proceed? With the car partially disassembled?

[tangalora]

Still don't see how anyone can do this job safely without using a post 4 point lift! What happens if you use jackstands and find this out [what I am saying is true] how will you proceed? With the car partially disassembled?

I wasn't sure what a post 4 point lift was. I presume it's what I see at these sites:http://www.autolifters.com/4postLifts.h ... ....htmlAs opposed to a scissor lift:http://www.ultimategarage.com/lifts.htmor otherwise.

I do agree that we can jump out of the way faster & easier with the Q45 up in the air. I also agree that putting a jack on the crossmember spreading out the weight with a 2 by 4 makes more sense than jack stands.

I also wonder, if the crossmember is so heavy as to require a jack, how in the world am I going to get it back on if I remove it in the first place.

These questions, and the safety considerations, are all valid and should be a cause for reflection. As the saying goes, there are bold mechanics and there are old mechanics, but, there are few old bold mechanics.

[DAEDALUS]

With the bolts loose but not removed you should be able to get a feel for how heavy the cross-member is. In fact, if you weren't going to do the engine mounts, you *might* find enough room between the pan and a slightly lowered cross-member to replace the pan without complete removal of any/all bolts.

[Q45tech]

A lift that supports the Q via 4 posts on the frame rails, engine supported via the top external support, the front wheels droop with all the suspension [sway bar, tension rods, lower arm] disconnected and cross member/steering rack hanging down.

[tangalora]

A lift that supports the Q via 4 posts on the frame rails, engine supported via the top external support, the front wheels droop with all the suspension [sway bar, tension rods, lower arm] disconnected and cross member/steering rack hanging down.

Closest approximation to that I can get is to put the Q45 on jackstands at2 or 4 points along the 'frame rail".

I did so this morning and finally found the third bolt (see photo below).

It's gonna be mighty difficult to get to that nut with conventional tools.