Q45 Oil Pan R&R advice

[DAEDALUS]

You have a 10mm, 1/4" drive jointed socket? It's gotten me out of a few jams. There is a reason master techs have $50k insurance policies on their toolsets.

[tangalora]

I'm stuck.

After that euphoria yesterday of removing the rear gussets & flywheel cover it's disheartening.

I spent hours trying to go around the front engine gusset with a 10mm box wrench and a quarter inch set of sockets with all sorts of handles.

My conclusion:It's very difficult (if not impossible) to get that one 10mm oil-pan bolt out.I'd say the alternator, compressor, & gusset have to go.

Problem is, I still can't get the alternator out.Basically, I don't know how to disconnect the wires in back (I think).Since that's not oil-pan related, I'll post that issue to a separate thread.

Just as no one photo seems to show the entire oil pan, no one photo can capture the occlusion problem with the one hidden-by-the-front-gusset bolt.

[911/Q45]

I'm coming through your town today and can be there in 4 hours, do you want help?

[llamabeta]

P.S. When I put all these bolts back, do I use locktite?

Ensure they are still in good condition and torque to spec. Loctite is not needed.

As for the pesky bolt:

Will a 1/4 inch drive with a universal joint not work?

There isnt an issue with removal right? I'd only be concerned when putting the pan back in with the new sealent on it. Dont want to smear that sealent all over the place and have portions with\without sealent. An oil leak would most likely occur and youd be back at it again.

Best wishes.

[elwesso]

I'm coming through your town today and can be there in 4 hours, do you want help?

T, in all honesty, I think youd be stupid not to take Don up on his <generous> offer..... He really konws his stuff!

[Q451990]

Problem is, I still can't get the alternator out.Basically, I don't know how to disconnect the wires in back (I think).Since that's not oil-pan related, I'll post that issue to a separate thread.

Unbolt the alternator first, then it will be clear how to disconnect it. If I remember correctly there's one plug and a wire that bolts on. I assume you've already disconnected the battery, but as a reminder - always do that before removing the alternator...

Heath

[tangalora]

I think youd be stupid not to take Don up on his <generous> offer

Maybe I will.

However, for a variety of reasons, now isn't a good time, not the least of which is the fact that I don't schedule my work on the Q ... it just happens when I find time between a miriad of travelling & family issues and the the various & sundry daily things that get in the way (some say that's what life is all about). Sigh.

Generally I work on the Q on weekends, but, that's been sporadic at best, mainly due to other pressing obligations (and injuries) always seeming to get in the way. I even find some time to cut over from lunch and remove a few bolts when I hit a stumbling block.

Right now, the only thing (I think) hanging this job up is the removal of the front engine gusset. The FSM says the compressor has to go ... and for the compressor, the FSM says the alternator has to go. However, Dennis intimates in one alt thread that the compressor can go before the alternator. I'd like to know if that can be done as I don't want to remove the alt ... I just want to remove the front engine gusset.

I wonder if the compressor can be removed and then the gusset (without removing the alternator)???

I did do some research (and then summarize) on all I could find about Q45 alternator removals on this web site (including Maxnix' detailed yahoo step-by-step reference), and, when I get a chance, I will post issues (and photos) to another thread (since it's ancilliary to an oil pan R&R). Basically Dennis says it can be done in just a few hours while others have taken 9, 10, and 11 hours to R&R the alternator.

Luckily, I think this is the last big task left ... but, interestingly, after reading the posts on alternator R&R, it seems everyone does it a different way (and the FSM is little help in directing traffic in one direction or another). Double sigh.

[tangalora]

Will a 1/4 inch drive with a universal joint not work?

Not only is that hidden-by-the-gusset 10mm bolt nearly impossible to remove (even with a 1/4 inch socket set), but, as you (and others) noted, putting it all back would be problematic (to say the least) as the chances of having an oil leak would be too great.

For some strange reason, I don't wish to do this job twice. So, the front engine gusset has to come off.There's no question (any longer) in my mind.

The question is what is the best way to remove that front gusset?a) Should I follow factory instructions (#1 alt, #2 A/C, #3 gusset)?b) Can we skip #1 and just do #2 and then #3 (as Dennis intimated)?b) Or, might there be an even better shortcut (like just remove #3 gusset)?

[tangalora]

Unbolt the alternator first, then it will be clear how to disconnect it.

The front two alternator bolts have long been out.The 24 inch pry bar helped greatly to free the alternator from the brackets.The alternator is now loose enough to jiggle a few degrees.But, it's still (very much) attached at the back!

The 1990 Q45 FSM alt R&R directions are (verbatim from EL-26):REMOVAL1. Remove radiator shroud.2. Remove cooling fan.3. Drain approximately one liter of coolant. Then remove radiator upper hose.4. Remove alternator upper bracket5. Remove air conditioner pipe mounting bracket6. Remove idler pulley. Then remove belt.7. Remove the two power steering cooler pipe mounting screws.8. Remove alternator mounting bolt (through-bolt).9. Remove harness heat shroud by pulling alternator to radiator side.INSTALLATIONo Installation procedures is (sic) in reverse order of removal.

So, if I'm to follow these instructions literally, I need to figure out:a) What is the "alternator upper bracket" in item 4?b) Find the harness heat shroud (is that on the alternator)?c) Find & disconnect all the alt wires the FSM fails to mention

Mainly, I wonder if I can just remove the gusset alone or just the compressor and then the gusset without removing the alternator.

[llamabeta]

If it's like most Nissan alternators, heck, most alternators I've seen. There is a plug to remove and two nuts. One of them usually has a dust boot over it. Larger one is like 10mm and the smaller is 8mm. There's not much to it.

[Q45tech]

I can't believe this has been going on for 4 months as of 12/8/04.......looks like you need thousands of dollars more specialized tools to speed the job up..........wouldn't it have been more economical of time to take a part time job to find the $500 to get it done faster?

Just that my Q has never been down for more than 24 hours. Different mind set I guess?

[louiegz]

I don’t mean any disrespect but, c’mon Dennis, cut her some slack. Your right that it might have made more sense to have a pro with the right tools do it, but she’s trying really hard and low on cash. I think she deserves a few words of encouragement and some tips instead of a strong dose Qtech of reality. Give her a couple of tips. I’m sure T3 has done many of these and you probably have some insight on how to do this. Xmas is the time for giving. Give her a hand.

[DAEDALUS]

I think most of us DIY'ers have to enjoy some aspects of the work, including the hands-on learning and the sense of accomplishment. When you do it yourself you know exactly how good a job was performed, and if you screw up, at least you usually have a good idea where. Second thoughts only happen after the car's rendered undriveable! Choose to swim.

[elwesso]

I think most of us DIY'ers have to enjoy some aspects of the work, including the hands-on learning and the sense of accomplishment. When you do it yourself you know exactly how good a job was performed, and if you screw up, at least you usually have a good idea where. Second thoughts only happen after the car's rendered undriveable! Choose to swim.

SO agreed.. In all honesty, while this is really bad, i am glad I had one Q to try and experiment on.. now I can do every job right the first itme, as on the old one I took shortcuts and certain things werent good......

Tangalora, I have more respect for you for doing this then probably any one else... I dont even think Id try this job, without your writeup.. Its very easy for us who are trying to help you to sit back here and tell you what to do, but actually doing it is another thing!

Can you determine where this gusset is attached? IE maybe see if we can have the alternator dangle?

Why not call T3 and ask one of the guys...?

ANother thing we have to adress, is there is a special tool used to get the oil pan out..... If you use a screwdriver you could warp the block, as stated in the FSM...

[Q451990]

I don't think Dennis' comment was meant as discouragement. I've thought the same thing, but respect any DIY endeavor - especially as well documented as this one is. It all comes down to capital... Tang is spending time, Dennis would prefer to spend $$. It all depends on what's more abundant.

In any case, with a damaged oil pan, I wouldn't hesitate to just wack the hell out of it with a rubber mallet until it comes off. Denting is not an issue in this case. Some of those special tools in the service manual (like alignment pins for the rocker cover reseals on the 90-93) either don't exist are are nearly impossible to find.

Heath

[tangalora]

I don't think Dennis' comment was meant as discouragement.

Dennis is right. What more can I say?All I can do at this point is edify others so they can do the next oilpan R&R in just a tiny fraction of the time it took us.

No need to. As has been the case lately, I was only able to start the task after nightfall due to Christmas shopping, picking a tree, & various & sundry errands filling my day.

Working steadily, by the time the 18th hole was reluctantly free, the 1990 Q45 oil pan just limply settled slowly into my arms, at long last, instantly surrendering its grip on the block with nary a struggle as if it were waiting all this time for this very moment when it was finally relieved of its duty.

[DAEDALUS]

Good job! I assume you removed the pick-up? How does it look?

[tangalora]

I assume you removed the pick-up? How does it look?

You don't want to know.

Not for the reason you think, mind you.The pickup was apparently unscathed from the oilpan's scrape with death.I'll open a separate (totally unrelated) thread on the horror story my oil pan whispered once it was unveiled and I peeked inside.

I'm trying to be succinct and skip just to the summary in deference to Dennis.

[elwesso]

The good news is (while im waiting for info on your story) that your engine looks fairly clean inside..... Id say average to above average... A simple oil flush shoudl get you cleaned up once your done.....

Thats the last thing on your mind though..

[tangalora]

... your engine looks fairly clean inside ...

It is an interesting sight looking up from the bottom.I've never seen my own pistons before (especially from this closeup angle).It's so very ... uh ... personal.It's kind'a like looking at a CAT scan of my inner organs.

I wonder what an engine in excellent shape looks like from this vantage point?

[s13sr20chris]

beautiful isnt it? i love opening up a nissan engine. how similar that is to the vq on the inside.

[AZhitman]

[off topic]

Alora, as usual, great posts and a great thread.

You're an awesome asset to NICO!!!

[/hijack]

[tangalora]

For the record, since the gusset had to be removed (in my dented oil pan case, anyway) ... and so the next person who needs to can more easily follow these steps years from now... the specific "front engine gussset" 11-bolt removal thread is:http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92399 (www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92399)Titled: Infiniti Online Mechanic » How to remove 90 Q45 front engine gusset

Despite the fact the alternator remains electrically connected to the Q, this front engine gusset link also includes links to the key NICO alternator removal threads summarized for your future use (because we didn't know that the alt could remain connected at the time).

Lastly, since documentation is 20% of the work, it should be noted the particular conundrum that befell us when the content of the oil pan was inspected is currently being analyzed at:http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92729 (www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92729)titled: Infiniti Online Mechanic » Can we see chain guides from the Q45 engine bottom?

Basically, the decision point is: - Finish the oil pan job - Then to the chain guides, oil pump, oil pump chain, etc.Or: - Do the chain guides, oil pump, oil pump chain, etc. - Then finish the oil pan job we started so long ago.

I prefer to finish the first job but am currently paralyzed with indecision.I wonder how long an engine underside can be exposed to the elements?

[911/Q45]

Since this is the low dust season in Sacramento, you should be fine leaving it exposed. You can put the pan back on with one or two bolts if it's going to be a long time before you finish the job. You really will be happier doing the guides without the pan on.

[DAEDALUS]

Well as 911/Q45 mentioned, it is easier to do the chain guide job with the pan off. But most folks don't unless the guides are missing pieces. The benefit of having the oil pan off is at least partially offset by the trouble of working around the support bar in the way. Other than that, there is almost no labor overlap, so...I'll vote for finishing the job and getting the car running. If you can, go ahead and get an oil pressure gauge on while you're down there. Note the threads. Not "standard" threads, but BSPT as I recall. You can get an adapter for about $3 since most cars/gauges use standard NPT. The difference is 28 vs. 27 threads per inch. CLOSE...but no cigar.

[Q451990]

I'd go ahead and replace the guides while you're in there. With a confirmed failure - you don't want to put it all back together, start it up, and scramble the engine. You also don't want to loose more parts in the pan and have to go through removing it again!

You'll need some more tools and more parts including the oil pump - but there are enough DIY guide veterans here to guide you through it (no pun intended)

Heath

[DAEDALUS]

You also don't want to loose more parts in the pan and have to go through removing it again!

Ah, good point. Scrambling the engine is as likely on the next start as any other I would guess. Unlikely too any pieces would fall off on the next start, but just in case, a carefully-placed screen could be arranged somewhere and retrieved when the front cover came off. The risk with doing the guides now is finding out later the engine was damaged, and/or the oil pressure is low.

[tangalora]

Get an oil pressure gauge on while you're down there ...

Forgive me for asking ... but where would I hook up the oil pressure gauge? See the photo below from the driver's side of the block.

You also don't want to lose more parts in the pan ...

I've been wondering about this. After a typical chain-guide replacement, why does anyone bother cleaning up the oil pan of plastic parts?

Something must be wrong with my assumptions below:a) Big pieces (once they've already fallen) sit on the pan bottom harmlessly?b) Smaller chunks get sucked into the pickup but stopped by the screen?c) Teeny tiny bits might get past the screen (but a few bypasses thru the engine should soon trap them in the oil filter)

Is it that the smaller chunks clogging the intake screen impede oil flow?

[DAEDALUS]

The blue arrow is where the pressure gauge goes. That's the oil pressure idiot light sensor.

Impeded flow is the main concern.

[elwesso]

Indeed.. As you saw tiny pieces block the screen and can cause starvation.....