KA vs. SR could get ugly
OK, I learned 2 things:1. For whatever reason, I read the torque as the Hp on that dyno sheet...although the Hp still tapers off, it's nowhere near as drastic as the torque.
2. Those guys are just as sensitive about the KA as everyone else defending it in here.
The simple fact still remains, that was poor turbo sizing on the SR owner's part...that was not a fair comparison by any means. This dyno chart would be a much better comparison b/c it uses a t3/t4 (like the KA dyno), has no standalone, and no internal work at all.
Nice torque curve too!:-)
2. Those guys are just as sensitive about the KA as everyone else defending it in here.
The simple fact still remains, that was poor turbo sizing on the SR owner's part...that was not a fair comparison by any means. This dyno chart would be a much better comparison b/c it uses a t3/t4 (like the KA dyno), has no standalone, and no internal work at all.
Nice torque curve too!:-)
This dyno 'comparison' shows some good info as to why the SR is the better choice for all out power (even though it was meant to do the opposite, and prove how almighty the torque of a KA is). A couple of points:demcj wrote:KAt vs. SRdet dyno comparison
-demetrius
1. The SR has such low torque in that dyno sheet b/c it has a big turbo running low boost...not b/c it's an SR. Proper turbo sizing or more boost would go a long way in this scenario.
2. Notice how the power tapers away towards redline on the KA. On the SR it keeps rising...that explains the poor E.T.'s and traps of super high powered KAT's. The SR is just begining to have it's fun.
I would also like to add that the SR, after swapping out the hydraulic lifters, shouldn't have any valvetrain issues.
WDRacing wrote:1500 views...thats alot of readers. It's unfortunate that we didn't nail down and debate any real specifics about either engine. Everything went a little off track...
I'd actually like to talk about the weaknesses of the SR's valvetrain. As well as talk to someone who actually has a high powered SR. I know I live in Japan, but I fell in with the Skyline croud as soon as I got here.
But Japan isn't America in any case, it's not like you guys can just stroll over to JUN or Veilside and ask for advice.
Perhaps when I get back to the states and see you guys at the track...
WD
I don't know much about the 'weak valvetrain'. Most people just talk about it, but I haven't found anyone to actually say what the 'problem' really is. I have my guesses...either its the hydraulic lifters or that there is only one cam lobe for 2 valves...I don't really know any facts on this though.
syka24et wrote: Whereas you drive with TQ and thats where the ka really shines. Sure peak hp is best for drag time but remember the 240 is not really a drag car,
The KA doesn't really shine in the torque department. Maybe it makes alot of it for a n/a 4cly, but that's because it's a stroker motor. The torque curve's are ugly and peaky and are not higher when compared to a similarly tuned SR20DET. Look at the dyno sheet I posted and look at the sheet demcj linked to...both cars are running t3/t4's with similar trims and the SR20 is making more HP and more torque. Not only that, but the torque curve is sweet. The difference is that the KA made it's peak torque at around 4grand and the SR made it's peak torque at around 5grand...but that doesn't even matter because it's all relative to the length of the powerband (the SR has a higher redline).
And I'm glad you made the point that the 240 is not a drag car...but you know what, no car really is (except for mustangs!) from the factory. You make your car into what you want it to be. If you want a drag car, you can make it out of a yugo. I just don't understand why everyone on freshalloy keeps saying 'see, the KA is the better drag motor, but the SR makes the better road race motor'.
For Auto-X, the KA-t may be the better choice only because it makes more power down low...something you need in an auto-x since you spend most of your time in very tight corners at low speeds...but since the SR has a 8.5/1 compression, it's not too bad (for a factory turbo car) at making power down low. My WRX for example sucks at auto-x...I have a 8/1 compression ratio and make no, NO power before 3.5 grand. It sucks...I was constantly trying to get back into first gear (which the WRX really hates).
For track, I would want the SR for a few reasons. 1) It was designed to hold up to higher heat levels and for longer periods. 2) The sr20 is lighter (remember, the KA alone weighs more than a SR20 w/ transmission, turbo and i/c+piping)...something that matters greatly on tracks. 3) You'll be spending most of your time near redline.
For driting, or really for any high speed motorsport, you will be spending most of your time near redline! Unless by drifting you mean driving 35 mph or less trying to slide in the back of a publix in which case, I don't think it matters what motor you have. I know when I think of drifting, I think of all those cars driving around race tracks at sustained speeds well over 70-80mph...thanks but I'll take the higher revving car in that case.
For track, I would want the SR for a few reasons. 1) It was designed to hold up to higher heat levels and for longer periods. 2) The sr20 is lighter (remember, the KA alone weighs more than a SR20 w/ transmission, turbo and i/c+piping)...something that matters greatly on tracks. 3) You'll be spending most of your time near redline.
For driting, or really for any high speed motorsport, you will be spending most of your time near redline! Unless by drifting you mean driving 35 mph or less trying to slide in the back of a publix in which case, I don't think it matters what motor you have. I know when I think of drifting, I think of all those cars driving around race tracks at sustained speeds well over 70-80mph...thanks but I'll take the higher revving car in that case.
1/4 mile racing is a world completely seperate from all other forms of racing. In 1/4 mile racing, your wallet is your only limit. With enough money, any motor has potential to drag. In the past though, stroker motors have always done well in drag, so I'm sure the KA can do very well. Too bad nobody has put the money into making an all-out KA-drag motor, and because of this, I can't fairly say which would be better. Just a FYI, the fastest SR I know of is the 8 sec Jun car and I've seen quite a few 9-10sec silvia's with sr's from the Aussies.
WDRacing wrote:Well put, this is the exact reason I'm going to build the worlds fastest KA powered 240. No one on these forums has enough dough to build a 240 to compete with companies like HKS. But no one does the KA. So aside from a few locals, all I have to do is run 2 9.5's in the same day.
Just to be able to say I have the fastest anything is worth the extra mile to me.
See you guys at the track in about a year.
WD
Go for it man. I wish you luck and hope you have a shop that can do lot's of custom fabrication!:)
You make a lot of references to my posts, so I'm going to start by saying, I never said anything about the KA being junk.
Next, I'd like to bring up a fact. The enjuku dyno chart that I posted up does not run a stand alone, does not have a bb turbo, and has completely stock internals. Just like the KA that I posted up that makes less power and torque. The mods are exactly the same on both cars with the exception of where they got their ECU's reprogrammed.
The KA chart that you posted is of a totally tricked out motor...lots of custom work, not off the shelf parts. It has pistons, rods, ported and polished head, custom valve job, nismo bearings, the Block was O ringed, crank work, ect ect...and it has less power and more torque. Oooh, more torque. And this guy is not your average backyard tuner. He's on his 4th motor now! He doesn't even use that motor (from your dyno chart) anymore.
I'm trying to compare apples to apples here. SIMILAR cars. If you want to compare fully built KA's to fully built SR's, you will lose and you know it so don't even try.
Next, I'd like to bring up a fact. The enjuku dyno chart that I posted up does not run a stand alone, does not have a bb turbo, and has completely stock internals. Just like the KA that I posted up that makes less power and torque. The mods are exactly the same on both cars with the exception of where they got their ECU's reprogrammed.
The KA chart that you posted is of a totally tricked out motor...lots of custom work, not off the shelf parts. It has pistons, rods, ported and polished head, custom valve job, nismo bearings, the Block was O ringed, crank work, ect ect...and it has less power and more torque. Oooh, more torque. And this guy is not your average backyard tuner. He's on his 4th motor now! He doesn't even use that motor (from your dyno chart) anymore.
I'm trying to compare apples to apples here. SIMILAR cars. If you want to compare fully built KA's to fully built SR's, you will lose and you know it so don't even try.
matt0941 wrote:Why do you say that they JWT ECU rewrite is crap?
He isn't the brightest star in the sky.
While a reprogrammed ECU is not ideal for maximum power, it's certainly not crap. Especially when he's talking about you 'average backyard tuner' who can't even figure out an SAFC...let alone a full standalone.
If you're goals involve getting your ECU reprogrammed by JWT, don't worry.
Re: Dori Dori
syka24et wrote:I never quoted you and I felt up to now you made good points pro sr points.
You made referance to the dyno charts that I posted..it's as good as a quote.
Quote »The reason I don't like the JWT ecu is 2 of my friend had bad experiences with them. Plus 800 with no adjustablility without sending it back to him (more money) does not appeal to me. If it works for you fine. But my post tend to reflect my own situation. I know stand alones are a little extra work but if I make any changes to the car its easier for me to go to a dyno for a few hours than to have my car out of commission for x amount of time for my ecu to come back. Like I said in my post the ka can make good power and is not junk.That was my point.[/quote]What exactly were your friends bad experiences? Where can I read about them, because for the most part, JWT has a good rep. Back up your claims man, don't just tell everyone it's junk. I would never use them though because I won't let my car get 'tuned' without putting it on a dyno. I'd get a piggyback before I got that. But to call it junk is just stupid...maybe it's not for you, but it's not junk. Also, for the last time, I, nor did anyone on this thread call your precious KA junk. The only one that called anything junk was you refering to the JWT...so your point was in vain.
Quote »PS I must have really hurts someone's feelings for them to result to references to my level of my intellect. Sorry about that. This thread was about opinions and I offered mine minus all the BS. Why even read if your going to get emotionally envolved?? Oh and as far as me winning(in sr vs ka debate)this thread, is there some trophie or prize at the end I did not know I was in competition. Figured it was just opinions, anyway someone pleeeese close this thread. [/quote]
1. Uhhh...:thinker...sorry dude, no hurt feelings here. Just a little confusion as to why you feel I am so emotional...:rolleyes2. You did offer BS by lying and posting that dyno chart that has 'only off the shelf parts'. BS!!!! There is so much custom work done to that motor it's not even funny.3. Competition? If you want to post dyno charts of fully built KA's trying to prove that they have this great torque and power, then I will post dyno charts of fully built SR's. It's simple. To trophies. No prizes.
ADAMHU wrote:hmmm so far this has been an interesting discussion....
i would say...for the street ...who cares what engine you have..since they are rarely pushed...and eithermotor is fast enough and reliable enough for street use.
but IF you were building a race car...you would have to have rocks in your head not to go with the engine that has 400cc more displacement.....
i have driven both SR and KAT (own kat) and the SR is silky smooth, and revs very nice.......but the KA has brute noisy rough power......and it is the better choice...
of course this is not a discussion about money to do the KA correctly, or which can hold more power in stock form...this is about building up a road race machine..you would always go for the larger displacement if rules allow....
Errr, wrong. Displacement is not the deciding factor for a road race motor. Did you know that the Sr20det is square? Equal bore and stroke or close to it is very desirable when choosing a road race car motor. The KA is a stroker motor, which is not very desirable for a road race motor.
Bill, bill, bill; please read the past few pages. This has already been discussed. Read all my posts and dyno plots. Oh, and when (or should I say if:rolleyes ) I finish with my car, I will drive to Tampa (I live in south FL) and meet you at whatever local drag strip you have there...if you accept the challenge of course:) It'll be a friendly challenge. I like 240's and it'll be fun to compare.
ADAMHU, this is going to be fun! First of all, your KA needs to have a good rod ratio...because your rods are so freaking long! If it didn't, you'd have a 4 grand redline or a lot of bent rods! Tell me, what's the purpose of a good rod ratio when you can't even take advantage of it?
And about your 5.7ltr V8 comment...I'll take the 1.5ltr turbo V8 from the F1 cars of the early 80's! You can keep your displacement.
ADAMHU, this is going to be fun! First of all, your KA needs to have a good rod ratio...because your rods are so freaking long! If it didn't, you'd have a 4 grand redline or a lot of bent rods! Tell me, what's the purpose of a good rod ratio when you can't even take advantage of it?
And about your 5.7ltr V8 comment...I'll take the 1.5ltr turbo V8 from the F1 cars of the early 80's! You can keep your displacement.
ADAMHU wrote:how can the SR have the advantage of what is shown below? the car that is easier to drive will win...and that is the KA...why.... cause you have another 67ftlbs torque to pull you out of screw ups that you make while driving...its power band is flat...
flat=easy to drive....
the extra 10hp is nothing compared to the area under the graph that the KA has to work with....
Retard tuning a car = ugly *** dyno plot.:p Like I told bill, read the last few pages.
Oh, and why do you insist on saying one is better than the other? You sound like a kid.
Lastly, that torque curve is ugly. W T F are you looking at!:confused
Bill, nothing huge...probably a K3T kit from Blitz; or maybe the PE 1820 kit. I want something different and both kits have their ups and downs. The PE kit has a BB turbo, but the Blitz kit has a tubular manifold. Everybody runs garrett's and I don't like IHI. I don't want to go huge, but I'm not looking for a super low-end (who does with a turbo'd car anyway)... I'm hoping for 350-375whp at low boost settings and 400-425whp at high boost (pump gas). I don't want to reduce compression (by means of gasket), but I may have to. Also, I'm going to try to run some sort of piggy-back ecu (haven't decided which one yet) and a boost controller. We'll see how that plays out though. I'm going for all around fun.
Please, once again, this has already been discussed. Go back in this thread to where I started posting and READ!ADAMHU wrote:so where is your comeback now....the chart is posted with both engines overlayed.....
what do you have to say...
*sigh* This is getting redundant and foolish now...
WD, did you at least get what you wanted?
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DonDonati88
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You want a set budget ok. Imagine a KA-T that just got turb'd AND NOW 4k to play with, (for arguments sake let's say all both cars have is intake, exhaust, FMIC, fuel pump, dp and boost controller). Now the SR with the aforementioned mods AND 4k. Tell tell me which engine is faster vs. more reliable as well.
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DonDonati88
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DonDonati88
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:bsflag :youwonerich wrote:I own a KA24DE Turbocharget 91 240sx with a built bottom end and 9.0:1 custom Wiseco pistons. I run about 10PSI.I have driven a SR20 RedTop S14. Stock as far as I know.I'll take the KA over the SR any day. Yes the SR is smoother and revs higher. Who cares. The KA is WAAAAAY more fun on the street. Fix the weakest link of the KA (the pistons) and you are good for 300HP with no worries. Change the rods and go for 400-450. With gobs of torque that no SR can match.
erich
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DonDonati88
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