KA vs. SR could get ugly

[Daunttless]

Do you think I don't read these, believe me, you'll feel my wrath. =P I get enough emails as is.

The Thing under your name is determined by your post count, if you don't want to drive mom's car, stick around, post more, and it will change. : )

[Daunttless]

Speaking of KA weaknesses. : ) I don't really want to get into the debate, but wheres the comments on vibration and the crank. Demcj? : )

[I H8 UR DSM]

i'd go with the KA if i was to ever do it again. I'd trade my sr for a good KA24de, and cash.....

[I H8 UR DSM]

only reason i would go with the KA is the number of available KA's out there..i'd love to have a motor and be able to have 3 extra blocks, and a couple extra heads laying in the garage...with the SR you better be rich to try something like that...

[I H8 UR DSM]

huh? im not sure that made sense.....

[I H8 UR DSM]

why not do the Quad4 vs a v8 ; )

sr20de vs. ka24de, give the nod to the ka, no?

sr20de+t vs. ka24de+t, i give the nod to the ka also....i think the comparissons need some working on.....

2jz still my pick ; )

[I H8 UR DSM]

or we can ask Paul, because CA18det OWNS ALL, right? ; )

[trpower7]

Can we say parts?? Can we say, the KA is about one of the most ubiquitous engines here in the US? I can get SR parts for cheap......where??? And who has an SR? Everyone.

[trpower7]

What I mean to say is that the fact that I don't have to be constantly worried that I have to go into a parts frenzy when something breaks on an SR is worth alot. I'd say $ for $ assuming you have time, a KA is the way to go. SR swaps done at home by anyone but a professional usually have some kind of snag, or wiring issue, or really needs to be troubleshot. Also, there is something to be said for making good out of what we think Nissan messed up in the first place. By that I mean making something formidable out of a motor that is ragged on constantly. SRs have been done and done a thousand times, KA-T offers a whole new plain to REALLY make something out of an engine no one thinks can. I know I'll be buying a junkyard motor and slowly building it up over the next year, while I run the miles out of my current KA. I'll run it till it dies, and keep building toward KA-T, and when my current motor finally kicks the bucket, I can easily put my built one in, even if it hasn't gotten the turbo kit. Then I have a brand new motor, with no swap hassles, and built to handle 400-450 hp. with the turbo kit.

[trpower7]

There is alot to be said for originality. I'd respect and admire someone WAY more that made something out of a Honda hybrid engine than someone else with a B16 swap. Performance is around any number of ways, originality is why I'm not driving a 5.0 or Z28. If it was just about performance and less $$ that would be where my time and money were spent. But it's about personal preference, time, availability, purpose, etc. You just can't say that dollar for dollar, one way is better than another.

[trpower7]

WDracing = MY hero

[JESTER]

WD,

I think the main prob with not getting info instead of opinion, is that there is way more info out there on the SR than on a turboed KA.

I dont think a fair comparison could be made unless all thing were equal. This of course is not egual. A 2.0 turbo engine versus a 2.4 truck engine with a turbo set up installed. A stock SR makes 205 to 250 HP depending on model. The stock KA with after market turbo system (7 psi) makes approx 240 HP. If you are looking at both engines on stock condition (with turbo for the KA) the KA produces more horse power and torque, but the SR will rev higher.

Of course if you slap a T04b or T3/T04b hybrid on an SR, I am sure it will make more horse power than on the stock turbo at the same boost level. But then you run into the area of boost lag. A T04b will have more lag on the 2.0 (stock) than on the KA (stock). The high compression and added displacement come into play.

Here is the part where I give my opinion. KA-T. Why? The 240 in the U.S. comes with a KA24. I can pick a spare up for near nothing. I can turbo it as other members here have shown for the small amount of $1250 (Sexy240). But this is and is always gonna be a debate of opinion. Which is an un-win-able argument.

WD, I gotcha back. You were right it got ugly.

[C-Kwik]

Here is my take on the KA vs SR debate. Frankly, this could be the same as a KA vs B16 Debate. Or an H22 vs an SR debate. Modding engines is all about determining the weak spots, and fixing them to be able to push more power. All motors have them. All motors are built with Compromises. Yes, even the mighty 2JE-GTE has it's weak points(although it's astronomically tolerant for an OEM motor). The SR needs resleeving at some point. The KA's compression may be a bit on the high side. The SR is smaller. The KA doesn't rev as high. The SR has valve problems at high RPMs. The list could go on and on. Do you think the Honda guys running 8 second 1/4 miles saw things as limitations? Doubtful. They probably saw it as a hurdle. The trick is you cut down the hurdle so you can jump over it. Hell, if you're good, you may be able to walk over it. Some of the Hondas are running about 1000 HP. Of course these are race motors and built as such, but even half that power would be a rather nice amount of HP.

If I had to build an ultra high HP SR or KA, I'd go SR. Not because the KA is any less capable. Only because others have done the research already. Noone has seriously explored the ins and outs of of a ultra high HP KA. On that note, I do know of one KA that has gone to a shop that builds NASPORT GT cars including NASPORT KA's. The owner is expecting to possibly get into the 600 HP range on race fuel. Personally I can't wait. And hopefully he will have it ready in time for the 2003 national convention.

[C-Kwik]

Engine comparisons of the heavily modified variety are hard to discuss objectively. Other than the fact that the KA and SR are both 4-stroke 4-cylinder Nissan Motors that came in the S13 and S14, they are quite different. Most of what I see in the this thread are subjective thoughts, and while all valid, are based on each person's own circumstance and desires. Different motors will behave differently at different power levels. One motor may be more suited to a certain type of racing or driving than the other. Sometimes even the rules of racing can have an effect on what motor is better suited for that car. Cost of course is a large factor as well. For those of you that make arguments about "cost not being a factor", then that would really draw out more inconclusion since I could just seriously reengineer each motor and the potential for each could be endless. And as Nils posted somewhere earlier, each motor must have the same mods. But that gets tricky as well. There was a dyno comparison posted on here between a 15 psi KA and SR. But there were differences in the mods. Someone else posted an SR running a T3/T4, but that still doesn't tell us the whole story. Turbos have different trims and A/R's. There could be differences in I/C efficiencies. Manifold design differences can affect power. You could go as far as comparing an SR vs KA where the major parts are similar on both and still not have a very good comparison. Why? Because if you were to use the exact same turbo, it may not be as good for one motor as it is for the other. To build a good turbo motor, you must consider the goals, and how well the turbo is matched to the motor for that goal. It would be very difficult to come up with any kind of an objective answer to this debate.

An easier argument would be to compare the same motor built in different ways, but even that could be hard. Take the Hondas out there that are running sub 10 second 1/4 miles. There are really only a few engine builders among them, but each builder has their own way of making power. One may look to higher RPM's while the other looks to just making more torque with less RPM's. But the HP remains similar so the cars still run close 1/4 mile times.

Lets now take a JGTC Supra as an example. They don't use the 2JZ-GTE motors in them. They may have at one time if I have heard correctly, but the top Supras are the ones running 4 cylinder motors(I believe the same one as the MR-2 and All-trac Celica). They are faster from what I hear. My speculation is that the Supra is weighing in at more than the minimum weight and using the 4-banger helps to reduce weight. The JGTC has HP limits, not engine size limits. So for the purposes of that series, the smaller, lighter 4-banger has become the better choice over the almighty 2JZ-GTE.

Now if you wanna argue that "A" Motor is better than "B" Motor for this purpose because blah blah blah, then it's a more valid point since you are making a subjective point with objective circumstances.

Adam brought in a good point about the transmission gearing. While I will not say if his point is right about the KA or SR, it is an objective circumstance to consider. Does Greaser's motor match the transmission better or does Dennis's motor match the transmission better. But that doesn't speak for every KA and SR. Only the comparison between their motors. You could easliy throw a big wrench in that topic by perhaps using an S15 transmission on Greaser's car. I think arguing points this way could prove to be quite productive, but the whole general SR vs KA debate is about the biggest dead horse in the 240 world.

[TrueSlide]

It basically comes to preference and I would perfer the CA.

[TrunkMonkey]

yup, this could get ugly.

i say we put this in the general chat or technical forum. that way we could get views from as many 240sx owners as possible. i don't think some of the SR guys come here. i know i rarely look in the SR forum.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

KAt vs. SRdet dyno comparison

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

oh, and WDRacing, i have to agree with you on one thing.

i thought this thread was going to be alot better too.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

Also I would have to agree with WDRacing being quite immature. His first post regarding my comment was that I was "full of ****" and that I was wrong. Then he erased all my posts.

let's get this straight.

i erased all of your posts, and all the other posts that had nothing to do with the thread you're refering to. that included WDRacing's and some other members who voiced their opinions.

you were the one who came into the KA forum to voice your opinion about the SR. you didn't just ask a question, you tried to make the SR look better than the KA. i could care less about who thinks what engine is better, but what i do care about is showing respect to others. the oringinal poster asked a question that was being answered, but you had to come in and steer the thread into a KA vs. SR debate.

we've had problems with what i call "in house trolls". mainly SR guys trying to prove how much better their engine is. trying to convince people to "go SR". i say respect other people's opinions and decisions, whether it be CA, KA, RB, or SR. there are seperate forums for each engine. do not go into another forum to ask, what some of you might innocently say, "i just want to know why you picked this engine when this engine is clearly the better choice."

what get's me is if the SR is such an interesting engine, why do so many of you SR guys spend so much time in the KA forum?

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

You guys need to spend a little less time trying to steer conversations and more time encouraging discussion.

steer conversations?

i moderate 2 KA forums. and in either one of those forums, can anyone tell me where i've tried to steer a conversation?

there are several very good discussions going on in the KA forum right now that haven't been influenced by any of the moderators. questions are asked, questions are answered, and the thread doesn't turn to crap.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

The reason I was in the KA forum was to read what people were doing with their KA's and why.

btw, that's not what you were doing. you know it, i know it, and anyone who has read comments that you've posted in the KA forum knows it.

own up to your own immaturity...then grow up.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

Point being, maybe we know a thing or two about them and can lend a hand.

and that is and will continue to be greatly appreciated. but that's not the intention of all who go to other forums.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

where do you get KA turbo kits for 1250?! thanks.

they pieced it together themselves.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

Speaking of KA weaknesses. : ) I don't really want to get into the debate, but wheres the comments on vibration and the crank. Demcj? : )

you calling me out Daunttless?:)

so the KA isn't as smooth as the SR. hell, the KA isn't as smooth as anything, but i wouldn't consider that a weakness.

i've never understood why people want to make the KA rev higher anyways. unless you're building a serious n/a engine, it's kinda pointless.

buy an SR if you want more revs...better yet, buy a honda.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

This dyno 'comparison' shows some good info as to why the SR is the better choice for all out power (even though it was meant to do the opposite, and prove how almighty the torque of a KA is). A couple of points:

1. The SR has such low torque in that dyno sheet b/c it has a big turbo running low boost...not b/c it's an SR. Proper turbo sizing or more boost would go a long way in this scenario.

2. Notice how the power tapers away towards redline on the KA. On the SR it keeps rising...that explains the poor E.T.'s and traps of super high powered KAT's. The SR is just begining to have it's fun.

I would also like to add that the SR, after swapping out the hydraulic lifters, shouldn't have any valvetrain issues.

you didn't read through the entire thread did you?

-demetrius

[f1seb]

that would cost more then 10k with shipping and then later installing it, I'm interested in keeping it a daily driver as well, I might cut the 10k budget if my goals are reached before i spend that much.

[f1seb]

Well I'm setting my budget at around 10k for engine work so I dont know. The 10 would include the buy of the sr20 which would be around 6k and then the rest of the 4k would go into modifications and tuning. But with the KA now i dont know which would be better, id like to expect mid to low 12's and keep it a daily driver.

[f1seb]

Now I read all 7 of these pages to get some light on whether i should swap in an SR into my 97 s14 or buildup the KA and turbo charge it. And I'm probably worse now then I was before, I mean both sides came up with good reasons but to me it seems to be split right down the middle between people. I mean I got a ride in a pretty fast SR probably the fastest on Long Island and thats what I thought I wanted until I heard the owner of that car tell me that if he had to do it again he'd go KA. And that echoed through my brain and its still in there 2 days later, and I have no idea what the hell I'm going to do......

[f1seb]

That's how I priced it at Heavy Throttle

1 Black Top S13= 2850+200 shipping1 Greddy Headgasket= 2391 Fuel Pump= 1291 3 inch downpipe=159+ 1500 in labor the total comes to 5077 dollars plus the wonderful 8.5% sales tax that they will charge 431.545brings the total to $5508.55that does not include exhaust which i will later buy and I didnt price in the hoses and other needed stuff to complete the swap which in turn will cost even more money and put me over 6kThe reason why I wouldnt do it myself there are too many people with SR's on this board and ones that I met and have somethign wrong with the engine and it's not running as it should most likely due to installation and wiring. I also don't have to tools to do something like that and would want it done once and perfectly the first time.

[f1seb]

Yeah Heavy definitly does have my balls in the vice for that matter, but they are the only shop with extensive Nissan/SR experiance so that's why they can charge so much in the NY area. I wouldn't trust any other shop unless they had done a few SR swaps on their own and I talk to those owners to see if they're happy with it. I mean for the amount of money going into this project I sure as hell better be pleased with the work. That's why I'm thinking turbo the KA do some internal work and it wont come out more then 6k, I have to do some research on the internal work of the KA there arent that many after market pistons and all the valduehickeys, I'll probably talk to Paisley about the car see what they say.