KA vs. SR could get ugly

[cnichols]

$10K for the engine alone?? Call JUN and have them build you one....and with that much in the engine, I would think you could see low 11's...screw the 12's with that much money.

[cnichols]

I'll think I'll go out on a limb here :rolleyes and say that JUN is the master of the SR and probably knows it better than anyone.

Leave the engine build up to the masters and put it in yourself...why pay someone to do something that really isn't that hard?

[cnichols]

that would cost more then 10k with shipping and then later installing it, I'm interested in keeping it a daily driver as well, I might cut the 10k budget if my goals are reached before i spend that much.

You don't have to order their all out race motor....

From JUN USA's website...

"Each JUN engine is designed and built to your specific requirements and budget."

[cnichols]

Nils = My Hero

I have made the same point on other forums when I was arguing for the SR. I haven't had any offers from anybody in Japan or Australia or Europe to buy my KA24 for $2000. Hell, I can't give it away. There is a reason why the SR is so popular. It's not a fad, and it's not the cool thing to do. It's the best idea if you want to make the most power for the least money. Done Deal.

You can give it to me! Seriously...if you want to give it away, I'll come pick it up.

[cnichols]

What company on the Exhaust manifold? I'm still deciding...the one I have is crap. HELP!

[midnight brother]

Point of swapping out a 2jz for an SR and other weird engine swaps is to get exposure. Alot of swaps are for show purposes to show just how talented they are and also to blow money

[sil80drifter]

MojoMan, do your damn research god*damit! Stop writing what people already wrote!1) KA-DE has piston oil squirters

2) Trannies are THE SAME, until s15 came out, which is when they made the 6-speed, obviously not available for KA, but people say it is weaker. What you make grind with poor shifting skill, what you didn't make grind when you bought/could afford/were let to drive an SR, when you already knew how to shift, and BAD SYNCHROS are very different things.

3) If the SR swap is easy, the adding of a turbo kit on a motor ALREADY in the engine bay must be even easier. Btw, since when is transforming the SR harness to fit the left steering wheel position/dash of the US 240Sx EASY?

4)A large part of the reason for the lack of turbo KA's is the fact that people only recently were able to turbo it (properly), since the kits for that were not always available. The KAT is a fairly new addition to the world of Nissan performance, compared to the SR. In Japan it was not even introduced as a turboed motor. I know of a quite a few people running 9-10-11 second KA24ETs in their Datsun 500s and 1600s. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it don't exist. Also the SR became "the cool thing to have" and many people have it just to show it off in their cars, most not even using their (pretty damn good) capability. WD was right in being pissed off because people were just stating what they've heard, instead of posting useful information not based on their own opinion or something they heard from someone at some point in time.To make a 400HP motor be reliable and serve a long time, experimentation is needed. Sometimes things blow, WD has probably the most experience int hat area *L*. What the FUNK will you do when your SR blows? Get another 2000 dollar SR motor? You could get a somewhat used KA engine for 200 bucks, complete even with a transmission, if you think they are less reliable than the SR ones (THEY ARE NOT)... but you don't like the KA. You must be rich. Or ignorant.In the end, what you get should still be a matter of preference, or at least a rational choice based on a person's financial situation or performance goals. I'm sure somewhere along the line, the KA outweighs the SR in some aspects, and vice versa. But you can't flat out claim that one them is the best to get, JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK SO, or it is the best to get for YOU. It's never good to say "I claim it is, therefore it is." So back it up with things more factual than "I think it's better."

sil80

[ADAMHU]

hmmm so far this has been an interesting discussion....

i would say...for the street ...who cares what engine you have..since they are rarely pushed...and eithermotor is fast enough and reliable enough for street use.

but IF you were building a race car...you would have to have rocks in your head not to go with the engine that has 400cc more displacement.....

i have driven both SR and KAT (own kat) and the SR is silky smooth, and revs very nice.......but the KA has brute noisy rough power......and it is the better choice...

of course this is not a discussion about money to do the KA correctly, or which can hold more power in stock form...this is about building up a road race machine..you would always go for the larger displacement if rules allow....

The whole reason this thread was made was because I asked a guy who was Turboing his KA to 400HP why he hadn't considered doing the SR swap as iut might be easier and cheaper. I am glad to see that others think like me.

Also I would have to agree with WDRacing being quite immature. His first post regarding my comment was that I was "full of ****" and that I was wrong. Then he erased all my posts.

Anyways.. I have nothing against the KA, I think it is relatively easy to do a KA to 240HP and have a nice torquey little machine. But I think if you want 400HP, who needs the hassle or the additional cost?

[ADAMHU]

so is rod ratio and the KA has a rod ratio of 1.72 which is alomost ideal...since 1.75 is considered by many builders as ideal.....

and the bore of 89mm vs 96mm stroke...is not that bad either....

guess you have not been out racing much....you can keep your little 2.0l SR motor...and give me a 5.7 v8...and we will see who will be winning the races...

same thing for the 2.0l vs the 2.4l engine.....displacement will always win.... IMO

go tell john force that displacement does not matter ...if you want to compare drag racing instead of road racing motors....

[ADAMHU]

how can the SR have the advantage of what is shown below? the car that is easier to drive will win...and that is the KA...why.... cause you have another 67ftlbs torque to pull you out of screw ups that you make while driving...its power band is flat...

flat=easy to drive....

the extra 10hp is nothing compared to the area under the graph that the KA has to work with....

Try it again the site was down.

KA-T Vs. SR comparision

As you can see the SR has the advantage too:

SR: 1. TecII EMS 2. JWT S4 cams 3. HKS 3037 4. Greddy intake manifold

KA:1. JWT chip (un-tuned)2. 91 stock cams3. T3/T04E4. Stock intake manifold

The SR made 357rwhp and 270rwtqThe KA made 347rwhp and 337rwtq

The KA had a much flatter power band; almost straight across

[ADAMHU]

lets keep in mind....those engines were only built due to one thing.....

RULES....

if you gave race builders carte blanche to build a race car...with no rules...i 100% will tell you you would not see any small 4cyl engines...they would all be forced induction big blocks....

go in some road race series where you have v8's running with turbo 4's..... on small tracks you might be able to keep up...give those v8's some room to run...and they will walk all over you.....

the KA can be built up, and when it is..it is going to beat the SR in every way....

Bill, bill, bill; please read the past few pages. This has already been discussed. Read all my posts and dyno plots. Oh, and when (or should I say if:rolleyes ) I finish with my car, I will drive to Tampa (I live in south FL) and meet you at whatever local drag strip you have there...if you accept the challenge of course:) It'll be a friendly challenge. I like 240's and it'll be fun to compare.

ADAMHU, this is going to be fun! First of all, your KA needs to have a good rod ratio...because your rods are so freaking long! If it didn't, you'd have a 4 grand redline or a lot of bent rods! Tell me, what's the purpose of a good rod ratio when you can't even take advantage of it?

And about your 5.7ltr V8 comment...I'll take the 1.5ltr turbo V8 from the F1 cars of the early 80's! You can keep your displacement.

[ADAMHU]

[ADAMHU]

unless you have some magic gear box, and are able to hold that SR from 6700-7500rpm all the time at the track...the KA is gonna be the stronger motor.....

do you see all that space under the KA motor!!! that is space where the ka will be pulling on the SR

[ADAMHU]

how is discussing things acting like a child?

i keep bringing up v8's since it seems you do not appear to know what affect displacement has on performance..

I'm sorry, you have not made one good point (well, almost with the rod ratios) and you continue to act like a child. We aren't comparing 4cly to 8, we are comparing 4cly to 4cly.:thinker

:wavey bye now, next caller...

[ADAMHU]

so where is your comeback now....the chart is posted with both engines overlayed.....

what do you have to say...

[ADAMHU]

i guess you just don't see what is happening on that chart that is overlayed...unless you get some transmission that can hold the power in that small rpm range,...the SR is going to lose...in whatever racing you want to do...period

now...lets just say we do buid up a mega sr and a mega ka...

lets say...that we use the same turbos, and the same intercoolers...and the same internals....and lets say we are able to get the SR to rev to 9000rpm...and since the KA is harder to rev...lets give it 7500rpm...both heads can be made to flow the same...lets say we really put some money into them and got a 95% volumetric efficiency...

THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THE SR HAS is its higher rev range..thats it....

(KA) 142x7500x0.5x 95% /1728=292cfm(SR) 118x8000x0.5x 95%/1728=259cfm

we would boost on top of this of course...these are NA figures

i am not sure if you can see the relationship that is starting to form here...there are 3 functions in a engine that can increase its flow...displacement and rpm and VE....so unless you increase those far and above the KA you are fighting a losing battle....

ok lets say for some crazy reason..we could get the SR to rev to 9000rpm..

SR) 118x9000x0.5x 95%/1728=291 cfm

the above was already shown to you in the dyno overlays....so....

unless you can get the SR to significantly out rev the KA, and get a transmission that optimises the SR's power for a very small area...the KA is superior...

now....for the street...i would say..the SR is smoother..yes....but if we are talking about performance...the KA wins...

Please, once again, this has already been discussed. Go back in this thread to where I started posting and READ!

*sigh* This is getting redundant and foolish now...

WD, did you at least get what you wanted?

[ADAMHU]

ok...show me why i am wrong...what is so magically different about the SR .....?

convince me....prove it to me....you just don't seem to get how important displacement is....there are 3 factors...RPM, displacement and VE....so unless you can overpower the other engine enough in catagories you cannot win....

the KA wins in displacement, can be equal in VE, and the SR wins in rpm....but not enough...if you could get the SR to race at 10000rpm...then i would say...yeah...thats a better motor..cause you can use the gearing of the car to your ADVANTAGE...but thats not the case....as shown on that overlayed dyno chart....there is just not enough peak RPM advantage over the KA for the SR to be superior...

or prove to me that a V8 is not better than a i4

lets do up a v8 lets do a 350...lets say we do some race heads..get a VE of 90%, and with good internals can get it up to 8000rpm.....

350x8000x0.5x90%/1728=729cfm

you tell me if you were building a race car..which motor you are going to pick....

there is no magic to this......

[red240ne]

If you go out and buy a turbo kit for your KA, then everyone will give you a pat on the back. If you go all out by getting an SR20DET, then you will be a hometown hero. I could say the obvious; the sr20 was built for being turbocharged, and can put up with it. But let's talk about the emotions involved this time. With the KA, you'll most likely have an engine with 100k plus miles, and have to do a major overhaul to prepare for going turbo. When you get an SR from say Daunt, he guarantees under 35k, freshly new for a Nissan. A lot of people say that they would prefer the extra 400cc advantage of the KA, but does that really matter? There just seem to be endless possibilities with an sr20 because of the huge aftermarket support in recent years. I want to get involved with this argument really bad, but I'm tired and I'll just get on in the morning, and none of this paragraph really flowed together or made sense.

[float_6969]

Well lets start from the bottom up. (the way that every motor should be built) You of course have the cast iron vs. aluminium issue. At no point in the building of the motor will you have to consider resleeving the KA motor. (not that there are any sleeves, but thats my point) The SR on the otherhand will have to be resleeved to create high HP #'s. Ofcourse, the chances that you will be putting that much HP down is slim to none but for the sake of argument, lets just say the skys the limit. Now ofcourse you would have to rebuild the KA bottom end to get any decent numbers from it, but if you want big #'s from an SR, you'll have to do the same. We also have to look at the bore/stroke. SR-square motor, revs nicely, alright torque, good horsepower. KA-way overstroked, revs slowly, gobs of torqe, moderate horespower. We could get into the TQ vs. HP debate, but there's not room for that. Otherwise they have the same technologies. Crank girdle and piston oil squirters. So as we set, we'll have to do more work to the SR to get the bottom end ready. (remember, $ not an issue)Now lets move up to the head. Here is where I feel much of the dilema lies (and my bias twords the CA) In one hand we have the SR wich was designed as a high flow turbo motor. On the other we have the KA wich was designed to be a NA torquey bastard. Now eariler we were speaking of the reving capabilites of the SR, yet if we look at the infamous valve train, we'll see it's poorly designed for these conditions. The KA on the otherhand has a well designed head for high revs, but has a contradictory bottom end. Also, there would have to be major porting and valve work done so that it would match the SR design. So here we are at a stalemate. As for the intake, they are basically the same design, so no real advantages. The fuel systems are slightly different, but if the motor was being built up, the fuel rail would be replaced anyway, so there is no advantage again. As for engine management, we have no price limit, so that is of no concern again. So where does this put us. Well, when money is of no concern it comes down to displacement in this particular battle, and as we all have hear, there is no replacent for displacement. But as we all know, money is ALWAYS of some concern and I think that this battle can only bedecied if a buget is set. Ofcourse if you want a superiour design with the best of both worlds there is always our unsung hero, the CA.......

[Nils]

Personally I prefer the KA, like they say, no replacement for displacement.

"Technology is the only substitution for displacement"

=)

I'd go with an SR20det anyday over the KA.

nils

[Nils]

Do any race cars run the KA24DE?I could name a few race cars in Japan that run the sr20det.

- The aftermarket for the sr20det BLOWS away the aftermarket for the KA24DE.

- It is incredibly easy to swap an sr20det into a 240sx and it is relativly cheap.

- The sr20det was designed from the FACTORY to take boost, the KA is not.

No offense... I just dont understand why you would go with a KA24DE. Blinded by pride??? I dunno...

n

[Nils]

What I mean to say is that the fact that I don't have to be constantly worried that I have to go into a parts frenzy when something breaks on an SR is worth alot. I'd say $ for $ assuming you have time, a KA is the way to go. SR swaps done at home by anyone but a professional usually have some kind of snag, or wiring issue, or really needs to be troubleshot. Also, there is something to be said for making good out of what we think Nissan messed up in the first place. By that I mean making something formidable out of a motor that is ragged on constantly. SRs have been done and done a thousand times, KA-T offers a whole new plain to REALLY make something out of an engine no one thinks can. I know I'll be buying a junkyard motor and slowly building it up over the next year, while I run the miles out of my current KA. I'll run it till it dies, and keep building toward KA-T, and when my current motor finally kicks the bucket, I can easily put my built one in, even if it hasn't gotten the turbo kit. Then I have a brand new motor, with no swap hassles, and built to handle 400-450 hp. with the turbo kit.

lol... that is your justification for choosing a KA over an SR?

pssst.... You know, not too many guys are pimping out the Honda hybrid engine, you should do that and be even more original... who cares about performance right, just about being original and "making good of what Nissan made bad"...

Last time I checked performance won and originality didnt =)

Anyhoot, this thread is going no where...... I'm out.

n

[Nils]

:bowdown

ha ha... you're funny =)

n

[Nils]

Wow, and you are a moderator???

"The last 20 some od posts are all CRAP. Know one asked what engine was prefered. No one asked what was more original. The SR20 isn't original guys, they come in Altima's. Try the RB series for originality."

- Eehhh, I actually had a post in this thread about originality and how it doesnt make any difference in the racing world, guess you didnt see it.

"I haven't heard any good arguments as to why the SR would actually be better. I could make a KA with a stock bottom end hit 300hp at the wheels easily. So you can't say that its weak."

- I could, I would, I should......

"Where is the factuall evidence I was looking forward to reading. All I saw was " well everyone knows the SR will smoke a highmileage KA" what a line of BS."

- False, read the whole thread again. Where is your FACTUAL evidence?

"I don't even own a KA yet, so don't go flaming about how I have pride in the OEM stuff. I'm actually a bigger fan of the RB series, which I've been racing for the last 4 years."

- Yeah, I bet you have.... you "original racer" you....

"The hole thing about technology being a sub for displacement is retarded. Simply apply the same technology to the engine with more displacement...not hard to figure that one out."

- So why arent you racing a V12, or a V10, or a V8?

"Lets hear some good facts or particular reasoning behind why the SR should be favored, or vice versa."

- The aftermarket alone would convince any SERIOUS racer to favor the sr20det over the KA.

I cant believe such an ignorant post has been made by a moderator...... I'm looking for a new forum to frequent.

Lets let actions speak louder than words, all you KA lovers go and prove how good the engine is... actually go out and race them... give them a good reputation... all this talk is really tiring.

the SR20det has NOTHING to prove, it is a legend in the country of its origin and has won numerous JGTC titles...

nils240racing.com

[Nils]

Hey NILS, buddy, I'm not trying to start a KA is better post. I'm trying to get some info and proven opinions on which motor is better and for why. Just as I said.

By me saying that alot of posts previous to my apparent outburst were crap, is because they made absolutely no effort to support they're arguments.

I have had all V8's my entire life, I've ownwd everything from a 77 Caprice to a 1990 Formula 350.

Then I cam to Japan and started driving Skylines...nuff said about that. My point was that you simply can't say technology will generate a better motor. Both the KA and SR are based on the same years of production. Technology can be applied to both.

New topic...

There is enough aftermarket to generate some quick KA's. Most parts can quickly be custom made as well.

I was hoping to get some very different points and views on this thread. But it seems like everyone is content to just argue blindly.

Oh, as far as being a Moderator is concerned. If by me using the word crap, has bothered anyone, I'm extremely sorry. But there isn't any rule that says Mods have to be sissies. 99% of us live in the most abrasive country in the world. Thank god for America...

In the future I will try to post a tad bit more professionally, I keep forgetting that civilian types are weak...lol. I'm just kidding...really, I'm not out to piss people off.

Oh, and Stuofsci02...If the SR guys could have read what you posted, they would also have told you that you were completely incorrect. That is the reason you got dealt with the way you did. You can't just post misinformation like that to a person who earnestly wants help. You'll get people into trouble doing that.

I think we all need a group hug

Remember, most of the guys on this forum love the SR and some may prefer the KA, heck I'll take the RB over most other engine ever built. But we all love Nissans...

Lets work on getting the best possible SR/KA as possible.

PEACE, I'm outWD

It's all good.... that group hug made me feel better =P

I understand what you are saying, I dont completely agree with you, but hey, if we all agreed on everything this would be a pretty boring world =)

I hope the KA guys dont feel like I disrespect them, I have raced the KA for a year now and it hasnt blown up yet... so I'll give it that.

take care,nils

btw - the word crap did not offend me & I agree with you on the RB being a great engine, nearly has the potential of the 2JZ-GTE ...j/k

[Nils]

Stop Comparing Dyno Charts!

Comparing Dyno graphs is very misleading, there are too many factors involved to make the graphs on even playing field. Both cars would have to be dynoed at the same time at the same place with all the same mods... otherwise it is pointless. Outside temperature, altitude and over-all air quality could easily bump a HP number up or down.

This whole thread is like an evil circle.

Someone comes and says "sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"

and it goes on like this into eternity.....bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla .....

Just get what ever damn engine you want to and be done with it! Go and race it and be happy.... no matter what anyone says on a forum you will have to make your own choices and learn for yourself.

=)

nils

(damnit... I told myself I wouldn't post in this thread again.... I am a sucker)

[Nils]

Nils made a good point and coming from a Supra guy, he knows all about dyno comparisons. What do a 450 and a 600 hp Supra have in common?? They both run 12's...lol.

WD

ha ha ha... lol....

I love moderators with big mouths.

n

btw - you got a website or something with your racing accomplishments?

[Nils]

Heh...I thought you would like that post. I must admit I stole it from the Supra forums from a few years back. There was big GTR vs. MKIV debate going on.

Big mouth...yep...I'm sure I'll get talking to eventually.

No web page...sorry. I've been stuck with dial up for the last 6 years.

The only racing experience I have is some minimal track time when I lived in FL and pure street racing over here in Japan.

........................................................................................................

Looks like the end of this thread .......

WD

ha ha... lol... I know what you mean, alot of supra owners call Supraforums "moronforums" =) alot of **** talkers on there.

...ouch, dial up...

I am assuming you drag race?... you should try road racing sometime =)

take care,nils

[matt240det]

in my opinion it all comes down to what YOU want and why you want it, for some people they are modding there only car, and are limited budgets, i htink in that case a turbo ka is a good idea, esp. if you don't expect very high hp i.e. 500+ i think at the level most of you are going or want to be at it really doens't matter , i don't think anyone here is going to reach the full potential of either motor, again i could be wrong. but i know for me i chose to do the sr swap beacause this is not my primary car and i want something diffrent and i have PLENTY of time to build and source parts for it. so i htink for most of you it would be better and cheaper and easier to build the ka. The parts are available here and if you break you have little down time. but for me i'll take my lightweight aluminum block and nicer shaped valve cover :pface

[matt240det]

here's a thought: now i have the sr and i'm doing the swap soonsih so i would lean toward the sr BUT one short coming i can think of is that the sr has a very small oil pan with the pick up very close to the bottom, which would be a factor for auto x, granted you can upgrade to a greddy oil pan, but for htose going stock for stock that is imo one weakness of the sr motor