KA vs. SR could get ugly

[Bill]

Bill, Bill, Bill; Oh, and when (or should I say if:rolleyes ) I finish with my car, I will drive to Tampa (I live in south FL) and meet you at whatever local drag strip you have there...if you accept the challenge of course:) It'll be a friendly challenge. I like 240's and it'll be fun to compare.

Anytime you want!

If you dont mind me asking, what is going to be done to your car?

[Gladimor]

Well the car was designed around the sr20 in japan, and a truck engine was thrown in when it was brought over here. The sr20 has the lighter aluminum block which provides better weight distribution which may not make much difference on the strip but on the circuit or autox it will. Also how many top japanese tuners are just itching to have the hot ka24de swaped into their silvias and 180sx race cars...:sad

I see I H8 UR DSM's opinion in having cheap spare parts available and that would be a very valid reason for keeping the ka, also the ka's torque will be more useful in city driving so if your not planing on doing much racing or creating a show car, you still might want to seriously consider keeping the ka.

Plus if you want to race a car with goobs of torque pick up a trans am or an SS camaro they are plenty good for planting the back of your head to your headrest at any RPM.

Peace.

[Gladimor]

Yeah that's the reason why I'm going 240sx instead of supra, I can push ALL my funds and a decent loan into buying a supra, and that's about it:pface! I'd rather have a porche/Mcar chaser that a stock supra that keeps sucking me dry on insurance and maintenance every month!

And demcj thanks for posting what I couldn't find, the dyno never lies:D!

Peace.

[Gladimor]

WDracing after chillin in the turbo ka forum for a bit and reading through the SIX pages of material, at your level of knowlege it just depends on what motor you know best and working with it. But as a side note, with a stroker kit, you can get a 2.2 with a redline of 9k on an sr20 motor and it's a race proven engine, pretty much what you are looking for. Dono just reminding you I guess, anyway whatever you do choose, I'm sure it will be fast as all hell.

Peace and GL!

[Redline240]

Just to stay neutral i'm gonna say RB26DETT......

[Redline240]

well the SR will always be cheaper to build.....to get a SR to 400hp is a hell of a lot cheaper than a KA to 400.....i think...lol

[Redline240]

I think the best way to look at it on a budget would be to set it as most of us are.....we have a 240 with the KA in it, do we bulid it or swap for the SR. So lets say we have a generous 10 grand to spend, what do we do? and remember you have to include the price of the SR, cause non of us get them for free...

[Syntax360]

Plus if you want to race a car with goobs of torque pick up a trans am or an SS camaro they are plenty good for planting the back of your head to your headrest at any RPM.

lol....nicely put

[Syntax360]

This thread should be a faq page for people who just got a 240, and cant decide what motor they want. Just about every difference between the motor has been talked about, so they will get good info.

definitely. I think a lot of people seek out this board because they just got their first 240 and are not sure which way to go with it. This thread has to be one of the most informative ones I have read yet.

[F4ucc]

Personally I would take SR over KA anyday.

Based on some old statistic data back in late 80s. The following statement shows why American only deserve a KA not a SR in their 240SXs.

"There is no replacent for displacement"

Duh, I'd rather believe in Technology!!

just a thought.

[blk90s13]

have to go with the sr its just born to be wild same with the ca

rb is a diff story they are just monsters

[syka24et]

Seems like the sr guys keep refering to after-market stuff and jun, veilside, hks etc (earlier post) But honestly how many of us will actually take our cars to that level. Forget about the money, the resources is a bigger issue in my book. Most of these shops make almost everything on the car (in some cases the engine managment) and then tune their own products. Don't get me wrong the sr20 is an AWESOME engine but if your in my situtation and are say going for 400 or so hp in a all around car(autox,drag,etc), and plan on doing a rebuild its cheaper to do a kit ka. then to buy a motor do the internals, then another turbo kit(the t25 is soooo small even for a 2.0 The piping bov all need replacement). {hows that for a run on sentence} Yes the sr may make more peak hp at a given hp but how much time is really spent at peak hp. Whereas you drive with TQ and thats where the ka really shines. Sure peak hp is best for drag time but remember the 240 is not really a drag car, Unless you are going to custom solid axel in the back. and drifting does not need peak hp, hell the jap tuners will tell you that. Well thats just me I have nothing aganst the sr but my situation calls for the ka.

[syka24et]

Well lets start from the bottom up. (the way that every motor should be built) You of course have the cast iron vs. aluminium issue. At no point in the building of the motor will you have to consider resleeving the KA motor. (not that there are any sleeves, but thats my point) The SR on the otherhand will have to be resleeved to create high HP #'s. Ofcourse, the chances that you will be putting that much HP down is slim to none but for the sake of argument, lets just say the skys the limit. Now ofcourse you would have to rebuild the KA bottom end to get any decent numbers from it, but if you want big #'s from an SR, you'll have to do the same. We also have to look at the bore/stroke. SR-square motor, revs nicely, alright torque, good horsepower. KA-way overstroked, revs slowly, gobs of torqe, moderate horespower. We could get into the TQ vs. HP debate, but there's not room for that. Otherwise they have the same technologies. Crank girdle and piston oil squirters. So as we set, we'll have to do more work to the SR to get the bottom end ready. (remember, $ not an issue)Now lets move up to the head. Here is where I feel much of the dilema lies (and my bias twords the CA) In one hand we have the SR wich was designed as a high flow turbo motor. On the other we have the KA wich was designed to be a NA torquey bastard. Now eariler we were speaking of the reving capabilites of the SR, yet if we look at the infamous valve train, we'll see it's poorly designed for these conditions. The KA on the otherhand has a well designed head for high revs, but has a contradictory bottom end. Also, there would have to be major porting and valve work done so that it would match the SR design. So here we are at a stalemate. As for the intake, they are basically the same design, so no real advantages. The fuel systems are slightly different, but if the motor was being built up, the fuel rail would be replaced anyway, so there is no advantage again. As for engine management, we have no price limit, so that is of no concern again. So where does this put us. Well, when money is of no concern it comes down to displacement in this particular battle, and as we all have hear, there is no replacent for displacement. But as we all know, money is ALWAYS of some concern and I think that this battle can only bedecied if a buget is set. Ofcourse if you want a superiour design with the best of both worlds there is always our unsung hero, the CA.......

True but if money is no object I will go with the 22sr20 stroker kit. I think if you plan on rebuliding go with the ka and a kit. As opposed to spending 2000 plus on a motor then rebuilding and then a turbo kit. Remember that small t25 and piping and intercooler will not make max hp.

[syka24et]

I have read through all the threads again and its like the people who are pro sr seem to be anti ka like it's worthless. All sorts of little cute pictures etc. But the bottom line is the motor makes power. That dyno comparisson was not fair to me because you do no know the list of mods for the ka. We do know the sr had a stand a lone bb turbo and cams and intake. Vs the ka with a jwt ecu (junk in my opinion), turbo (bb?). stock intake s13 stock cams. and made only 10 more hp and less tq. Now remember the sr guys said that there is know aftermarket for the ka. But look at one built with off the self parts http://www.executivecleancar.c...s.jpg 381hp 371tq 17lbs pump gas with a Jwt ecu (junk) imagine with a standalone that elimintates the maf Now compare this http://www.enjukuracing.com/images/393hpkit.jpg at 21lbs A little more than 10hp on the ka BUT 25 less lbs of tq at a lower boost level. My point is this if you feel the sr is better fine, but dont say the ka is junk . It is a motor that just gaining popularity and has enormous potential. And it can hang with the sr. I know japan has 700hp this and 9 second that , but I am talking about us and the average backyard 2ner who does his own sr swap or ka kit.

[syka24et]

I never quoted you and I felt up to now you made good points pro sr points. The reason I don't like the JWT ecu is 2 of my friend had bad experiences with them. Plus 800 with no adjustablility without sending it back to him (more money) does not appeal to me. If it works for you fine. But my post tend to reflect my own situation. I know stand alones are a little extra work but if I make any changes to the car its easier for me to go to a dyno for a few hours than to have my car out of commission for x amount of time for my ecu to come back. Like I said in my post the ka can make good power and is not junk.That was my point.

PS I must have really hurts someone's feelings for them to result to references to my level of my intellect. Sorry about that. This thread was about opinions and I offered mine minus all the BS. Why even read if your going to get emotionally envolved?? Oh and as far as me winning(in sr vs ka debate)this thread, is there some trophie or prize at the end I did not know I was in competition. Figured it was just opinions, anyway someone pleeeese close this thread.

[syka24et]

KAt vs. SRdet dyno comparison

-demetrius

This was the graph i was referring to I didn't see your could you post or your point. Must have missed it.

[syka24et]

:rolleyez ka=:toilet

Dori what was your post about no one in this thread said, my precious ka, or whatever. well look at that.



Anyway the jwt crap thing,like I said was just an opinion. You have an opinion too, right so what makes mine wrong. Personally my situation calls for a standalone. My vain point is that the ka is not trash and can make good power that's it. I do not see why you swear I was making references to you.

[stuofsci02]

The whole reason this thread was made was because I asked a guy who was Turboing his KA to 400HP why he hadn't considered doing the SR swap as iut might be easier and cheaper. I am glad to see that others think like me.

Also I would have to agree with WDRacing being quite immature. His first post regarding my comment was that I was "full of ****" and that I was wrong. Then he erased all my posts.

Anyways.. I have nothing against the KA, I think it is relatively easy to do a KA to 240HP and have a nice torquey little machine. But I think if you want 400HP, who needs the hassle or the additional cost?

[stuofsci02]

I am not an SR guy, I am a Nissan guy. The reason I was in the KA forum was to read what people were doing with their KA's and why. I think there must be a moderator for every god damn post in this place. You guys need to spend a little less time trying to steer conversations and more time encouraging discussion.

[stuofsci02]

Quote »Point being, maybe we know a thing or two about them and can lend a hand. [/quote]

If you dont like the dicussion you should leave..

[JamesT43]

Just thought that I would toss out one point in favor of the KA... (although I, myself am not taking a side in the debait)

If the car that is being built will see any SCCA racing, a KA24-DET may actually be in a lower class with the same amount of power. Swapping an SR20-DET engine into the car *should* (correct me if I am wrong) automatically plop you into the "Modified" class, where you will most likely be torn to shreds with a 240sx.

For those of you who don't know, the modified class is the highest class and recieves the least handicap on the PAX index. It is more or less the "anything goes" category.

[JamesT43]

From a purely numerical standpoint, the KA engine is shown to produce a higher CFM solely because of it's increased displacement.

This is a good point, although it does not take into account any other difference between the engines. If the only true rating of performance is found with the CFM, power of an engine should be directly proportional to the displacement.

While power IS in fact directly proportional to displacement in theory, we are discussing wether that stands in actual practice.

Dissapointingly for domestic car lovers, alcohol distributors, fat girls, and unfortunately KA-T tuners, displacement is not always the answer.

[bruinbear714]

Welp, I'mma have to bring this post back from the dead and jump in on this conversation.

I have a slightly modded KA24DE engine and am planning to go turbo sometime in the future and here are my thoughts on what other's have said.

"If the KA is the king, why don't they use it in Japan..."

Why would anyone in Japan reinvent the wheel when they already have a proven design? It's only in AMERICA that people want to turbo the KA because the SR is not readily available like in Japan.

A lot of you guys are speaking on the basis of speculations (and I am too), and so far I've only seen one person on the FA forums post a similar-setup comparison of KA vs SR.

In the end, it boils down to what you want out of the engine, how much you want to spend, how much downtime you can stand, and what is the car going to be used for?

For me, 300rwhp will suffice for a daily driven car.

Although I'm still not sure which engine to go with, but I am leaning a little towards the KA turbo, running it at 7psi until something gives, then rebuilding it with forged internals.

[Infamous]

hey! i plan on a KA-T:D just need to get the car:rolleyes

[matt0941]

No arguments here. I will keep this forum informed on how my S14A KA-T works out. I will most likely be doing the install through http://www.afterdark-tuning.com.

[USAF_Chris]

.....

"The hole thing about technology being a sub for displacement is retarded. Simply apply the same technology to the engine with more displacement...not hard to figure that one out."

- So why arent you racing a V12, or a V10, or a V8?

Look at Indy? What do they use? Twin turbo v12's, v10's and v8's. It isn't hard to make pretty much anything v8 fast (for the most part, there are always exceptions.) For the most part what kind of car you get is preference. A ton of people do race v8's, v10's and v12's, i.e. Domestic market while there are us, Import supporters. Quote »

"Lets hear some good facts or particular reasoning behind why the SR should be favored, or vice versa."

- The aftermarket alone would convince any SERIOUS racer to favor the sr20det over the KA.

[/quote]So untrue. Are you a serious racer? It is true it has a great aftermarket, no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean it is better. Custom parts are easy to fabricate/have fabricated, and parts are becoming more and more readily available for it. Honestly for road racing/autocross, I would stick with the KA, relocate the battery to the rear to maintain the balance (yes I would do the calculations and find the right weight battery and the best locations) and do a turbo kit. Also, no I do not own a 240sx, I own a 85 mr2 that has a very small aftermarket, but many serious racers have adopted this platform instead of the miata (bigger aftermarket so according to you NO one who is serious about being competetive would drive a aw11 mk1 mr2.)Quote »

....

Lets let actions speak louder than words, all you KA lovers go and prove how good the engine is... actually go out and race them... give them a good reputation... all this talk is really tiring.

[/quote]As said before, the 240 was designed around the sr20, but that doesn't mean you can't make the chassis balanced with the KA. Any serious racer would know that. Also, spring rates, sway bars, struts, etc. also help with balancing a cars behaviour. In the future more people will be racing the KA and they will be successful with it. Quote »the SR20det has NOTHING to prove, it is a legend in the country of its origin and has won numerous JGTC titles... [/quote]It is true, the SR20det has proved itself in Japan. Legend? Yeah, sounds about right. But has it proved itself here? Have people in the states been racing either for a long time? No. It is an excellent engine, designed and engineered well. Neither has been proving itself here. Racing in the States hasn't been very popular until recently (racing with imports that is.) Here is a question for you, why don't you see people running to grab a 240sx with an sr20 and autocrossing/road racing (when I say road racing, I mean willow springs, leguna seca, etc.?) If it is so great, and glorious in Japan, why is the Miata the most used car for amatuer racing? How many pro 240sx drivers do you see in the States? I've been to the SCCA events, the BMWCCA events, and I have never seen a 240sx.

240sx in Japan is a great car, but it isn't a 240sx, it is a Silvia with some similiar and some different parts. All that adds up to a different yet VERY similiar car. Lets keep this comparison to the engines, not what trophies such car with the engine in it has won over 3000 miles away. Though factual in one land, it hasn't proven itself for the most part in the U.S.

For the most part people are like-"JDM JDM JDM, MUST HAVE!!! I'm cool!"

I could care less about the engines, I don't own one, nor do I drive one. Just jumping into the argument to give my opinion about the different options. I'm very interested in the facts on these engines and possibilities of them.

Thanks for all the information people have given,

[matt0941]

Thanks for Chiming in Chris. Several valid points.

[USAF_Chris]

Man I hate catching threads at the tail-end..... oh well.

[S13Ka24e]

As far as people going out to race the 240sx with ka24de engine, they do, have you ever seen SCCA GT3 racing? Many people race them. Here are the results of the 2000 Valvoline Runoffs. Link

http://www.scca.org/amateur/cl....html

The the 240sx even has a track record at SEARS POINT RACEWAY. They even beat out the Rx7's. Link

http://www.sfrscca.org/RoadRac...3.htm

The funny part of one of the best 240sx cars racing in GT3 is that it is built by a highschool autoclass and is raced by the teacher.

As far as which I like better i can't say 'cause i have never raced a ka24det or sr20det. But on this thread I like the arguments for the ka24det better than the arguments for the sr20det.

[lifeofshadoze]

the ka has no timing cover gasket. the motor is made like beans and has more oil leaks after 100k than i can think of