KA vs. SR could get ugly

[lifeofshadoze]

and i own a ka24de

[C-Kwik]

So untrue. Are you a serious racer? It is true it has a great aftermarket, no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean it is better.

It is true, the SR20det has proved itself in Japan. Legend? Yeah, sounds about right. But has it proved itself here? Have people in the states been racing either for a long time? No. It is an excellent engine, designed and engineered well. Neither has been proving itself here. Racing in the States hasn't been very popular until recently (racing with imports that is.) Here is a question for you, why don't you see people running to grab a 240sx with an sr20 and autocrossing/road racing (when I say road racing, I mean willow springs, leguna seca, etc.?) If it is so great, and glorious in Japan, why is the Miata the most used car for amatuer racing? How many pro 240sx drivers do you see in the States? I've been to the SCCA events, the BMWCCA events, and I have never seen a 240sx.

I have to disagree with you on some of this. I think what he was saying that with the aftermarket the SR20 already has, it would make the SR much more favored. If it was an option. If I were considering building an absolutely no hold barred high power 240 using either the SR, or the KA, I'd go with the SR. It would be cheaper to go with parts that are available then to research and having custom parts manufactured for the KA.

I understand you arguments, but honestly, be a bit more realistic here. It will cost more to build a really high powered KA over an SR.

As far as racing 240's, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the races here in the US had rules that limit engine swaps. It might actually be impossible to run it here in a 240sx chassis with the currently available races. The only competitions I've seen 240's in are the NASPORT GT3 series, which someone just mentioned, SCCA Autocross(haven't seen any SR-s here, but their rules for each class is pretty strict on mods) and there is one more series that I don't know the name of that runs, for the most part, stock 240's. I believe all of them have rules that would either prohibit or at least make an SR very uncompetetive. But I would agree that holding the SR any higher for winning races in Japan is an invalid point as well.

And many of us have and do run 240's on road race courses. Incliding KA NA, KA-T and SR powered 240's. Hell at our national convention in July 240's from all over the country ran Willlow Springs. The December prior a few took theirs up to Laguna Seca. None of these were competitions of course, but many of us amateur wannabe race car drivers are taking the 240 on the tracks. Unfortunately, there is not a lot out there for us 240's to run in. Especially with SR's.

[C-Kwik]

the ka has no timing cover gasket. the motor is made like beans and has more oil leaks after 100k than i can think of

Liquid Gasket is used. Works fine if you do it right. None of the KA's I've seen leak any more oil then any other motor out there. And made like beans? I've had no problems with both KAs I've owned. And I beat my motor up pretty good every day. And there are several running 300+ HP on stock internals. Must be some really good beans.

[TrueSlide]

SR

KA

[encasemyheart]

SR

KA

This is true on so many different levels. :pface

[sil80drifter]

AHHHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHA...I haven't laughed this hard in all of 2 hours it took me to re-read this post.

sil80

[D3rELiC]

havnt read the whole threat, skipped the 10 last pageswhile surfing on drifting websites, i've seen someone with a ca20dett, what do u guys think about that ?

http://www.driftworks.org/

but i think the website is down... check it out later

[AceInhole]

[AceInhole]

SCCA Autocross(haven't seen any SR-s here, but their rules for each class is pretty strict on mods) and there is one more series that I don't know the name of that runs, for the most part, stock 240's. I believe all of them have rules that would either prohibit or at least make an SR very uncompetetive.

Just some information:The SR would have the same restrictions as a turbocharged KA in Solo II and possibly Solo I if SCCA rules apply to both. Not sure about NASA but I could probably find out. From what I've heard, NASA is not as strict as SCCA, though (could easily be wrong there).

What does that mean?? There's no reason SR's couldn't race with KA- T's. 240sx's aren't very competative anyways (it takes a lot to make a 240sx competative in SCCA competition in the first place). So, there are no rules restricting an SR powered car that would give a turbocharged KA an advantage.

I'm pretty sure wherever an SR is allowed to race, the rules that apply to it will also apply to the KA. No point in talking about where a KA goes that the SR doesn't in an argument like this.

Quote » But I would agree that holding the SR any higher for winning races in Japan is an invalid point as well. [/quote] The only way such a point would be valid would be if people swapped to KA's in Japan, following the point about needing to compare both engines where they're classed equally.

[justanotherguy]

now im not a racer and dont claim to be. nor have i torn apart a ka or sr but really if you sit back and look at the info and the specs, it all comes down to what you wanna do with it. yes a ka gives more torque than an sr hence if you wanna drag get a ka, but if u want to road race an sr is gunna be a better choice. its like everything else, WHAT do you want to do. so really it all comes back to personal preference. and technically they arent comparable considering the displacement difference etc but regardless its what you want to do with it and that makes the difference between night and day. its like in stereo comps, SPL or SQ ? road race or drag? they are 2 totally different comps. now if you want just a streetable car thats going to be fast, then either should be fine. it also matters wether you care what people think. if you want to be cool and say hey i got an SR then great, thats your choice and if it doesnt matter that you have a KA, then cool. but really to compare, you have to pick WHAT you are comparing them in and what its going to be used for is my point in all of this rambling, thats just my 2 cents.

[AceInhole]

the debate on which engine is "better" will probably never die. but, to say that a KA is "better" for drag or an SR is "better" for road racing isn't a valid point, in my opinion (very opinionated opinion). An SR with an HKS 3037 would probably rip my car apart with its measly TD05-12B at a drag strip, but my car with its small turbo would rip that HKS powered SR through an autoX (very driver dependant, however). You can set up either engine for drag or autox or circuit racing, and come out with something that will work great.

I mean, for every SR someone mentions that rocks the 1/4 mile, someone else will mention some killer KA powered car (like the sub 10sec Datsuns with KA power). For every KA that rocks an autoX (i haven't been beaten in an AutoX by an SR yet [4 distinct "challengers"]... only 2 events in though and the SR drivers are admittedly less experienced, but at least their shocks work! :p ) there will be an SR to kick its *** (wow that's borderline run-on).

Biggest difference between the 2? Bling factor. SR's are heavy into bling. Name brand this, name brand that, compared to pretty much any KA owner, and it's custom this, fabricated that.

[slipsr20]

ka24de-t and the sr20det are both complex motors! but the down fall on both is all on the driver! if you have a heavy righ foot and boost it to hell, than yeah your motor sucks! but let bygone be bygone and race hard. It dosen't matter what you have or what mods you do its all in the $$! "It dosen't matter if its an inch or a mile winning is winning!" (Fast and the Furious) (sorry I stole that but its true!) go ka-t's :ylsuper

[groundhogday1976]

the ka has no timing cover gasket. the motor is made like beans and has more oil leaks after 100k than i can think of

My KA has 144k+ on it. It hasn't leaked a drop since I got it, and it reaches redline almost every day. As far as which motor I'd prefer: KA. Why? I'm only looking to get maybe 250 rwhp. I can come up w/ a custom turbo kit for the KA and do that. If I was aiming for astronomical power the SR may be more cost-efficient, but it I wanted astronomical power, I'd have bought a Z28.

[Nurv]

justanotherguy is right though...i have been reading through this thread and the bottom line, end goal. do you plan on running a ceramic t-88, stroked SR? Or xtrmemly worked KA. Just I would say SR, but thats me. I would choose the SR over the KA. Ive been in the automotive business for a while now and specializing n parts alters my view. you would be doing alot of custom sh*t for the KA like fuel management. Original block and not swapping it out but aluminum vs. castiron, high revs, more aftermarket support.

regardless, its not like we are the merry men over @ Exvitermini where money obviously isnt an object but thats because it was never about that.

[240nismo]

how much HP would the SR have it it wasn't turbo'd?

[96_S14_SE]

SM - both SR and KA-T powered s-chassis fall in SM. A v10 indy infiniti powered S-chassis falls in SM as well. Any nissan engine (within the SM or SM2, if bumped, displacement limits for both NA / FI of course) into a s-chassis places it into SM other then a KA24DE / E, and adding FI isnt allowed in S-SP-STS/x so again SM.

Personally If I would be doing some serious track / W to W racing I would run a ka-t as well. WHY? Well blocks are a dime a dozen and so are the replacement parts.... Downtime is a bad thing....

BTW that drawing rocks.

[w1ngzer0]

so would working on a KA motor be good im trying to choose between SR RB or KA . Very confusing when you guys have these debats :help. My question is are the KA motors slow on acceleration? Also are they cost effective?

[AceInhole]

so would working on a KA motor be good im trying to choose between SR RB or KA . Very confusing when you guys have these debats :help. My question is are the KA motors slow on acceleration?

Define slow on acceleration?? The fastest non-commercially built 240sx's in the US are all KAt's AFAIK. At least, haven't heard of any 10sec SR powered 240's. (Although, If we stick to just motors, KA's do 8's in '10's :p)

[w1ngzer0]

Define slow on acceleration?? The fastest non-commercially built 240sx's in the US are all KAt's AFAIK. At least, haven't heard of any 10sec SR powered 240's. (Although, If we stick to just motors, KA's do 8's in '10's :p)

Thx man you have shed some light on my question. :icesangel. Can i aim you and ask you a few more questions?

[AceInhole]

Thx man you have shed some light on my question. :icesangel. Can i aim you and ask you a few more questions?

sure. AIM = A7r

As for the cost effective part: My setup cost less than $1000, with no "I'm so cool I get parts for free" crap. Basically, anyone can do my setup for less, and better, since they can improve on my setup and not make the mistakes I made. With the mistakes...... let's just say I spent $700 on my new motor. Pretty close to the $1000 someone said they couldn't sell their motor for. Seen another motor go for $800 (my parts guy sold it to someone in CA. Got to see the longblock before it shipped, too. Well worth the $$. $800 + S/H could've gotten him an SR longblock). Why do we pay that much for these motors?? Because they're under 30k miles, with great compression readings, and they're worth it. If you can't sell your motor for $800, then it probably isn't worth $800, is it. Either that or you're not selling it to the right people.

Quote »If I was aiming for astronomical power the SR may be more cost-efficient[/quote]Why is the SR more cost-efficient?? Doesn't it come with cast pistons, like the KA? Forged rods, like the KA? Define astronomical power??? 350hp? 400hp?? 600hp?? As you get higher, might as well get an RB. Has it been dis-proven that the KA can't reach 700hp?? How many people (not major companies with their unlimited budgets) have 600hp 4 cyl Nissan engines at all?? Oh wait.. Duy's was close at 545rwhp. Still waiting for Jeff (of http://www.cipmotorsports.com) to break in his engine and dyno it at 25psi.

I could be very wrong. I've been involved with the 240sx community for a while now, and haven't really noticed any huge HP SR20DET's on the streets or in the forums. If someone could link me to one, that would be great. I've only recently been hanging on the B15 forums... but I'm sure there have got to be some high power FWD SR's in the US. (Jay Haas' old B14 SE-R comes to mind... just over 400rwhp).

I've read about tons of people pipe dreaming about building 400 - 500hp SRs for 240's, but where are they now? The only one I've seen is Derek Greaser's, but can we say his setup costs less at that setup than say Dennis of unstable-hybrid's KA? Or Jay's (PSI240sx of some forums) old S14 setup?? I wouldn't be surprised if they all cost around the same. FWIW, Jeff claims his car totals up to $28,200 (for every possible peice on his car, including the car). Supposedly around $10k of it is in his engine.

Then there's the non- straight line racing that a lot of people assume the SR is better for. Guess I shouldn't get into that since I'm biased in that area. Might swap cars for fun runs next autocross if my friend doesn't mind, so we can see how we perform in each other's cars. Me with an SR and him with a KA, both getting a feel of the "other side" in a competative venue.

For the record, the fastest 240sx in the world (1/4 mile) is KA powered. Yeah, you heard me right. In the world.

[creophus]

I have read every post in this topic! I am now qualified to ask questions. I must agree with some of the other guys that I'm more confused now than I ever was. I suppose all of us newbs would like a definite answer or something pretty close to it. The reason being it sucks to have regrets if something goes wrong. If you know you made the "right" decision then when something goes wrong its easier to take it in stride and keep going.

Just like almost everyone else...I have a KA that runs fine, I'm thinking of going SR or RB or KA-T or even CA. My issue is this, I don't care about looking good to people by either having a JDM motor or being original. I simply want a fast car. How fast? I'm not even sure. I don't plan to race the car, I just want something really fun to drive. I'd like to spend as little as possible. I think I want 250-350rwhp. That seems like a nice number, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not going to waste anyone's time and say that I want it to Drag, Autocross, RoadRace, Rally, AND convert into a motorboat so I can pull water skiers. :rolleyes I simply want the best bang for my buck. I have a strong running KA that has 85K miles on it. I just want a fast car that I can drive on the weekends. Someone please post something that would clarify. Is it better to Turbo or swap the motor?

[sil80drifter]

Aaace! Who is it? Who has the fastest 240 with a KA? What does it run? How much HP/TQ? I want to knooooow!

sil80

[AceInhole]

Aaace! Who is it? Who has the fastest 240 with a KA? What does it run? How much HP/TQ? I want to knooooow!

sil80

Probably Duy's old car (which is now in the hands of someone else). There was so much controversy over that car from past SR vs. KA debates. Supposedly the car had about 545rwhp. Seems right to propel a 3000+ lb. car to a 10 sec. 1/4 mile (yes. 3000+ lb. Supposedly it did it's 10.8sec. run with a full interior and sound system).

Of course.... I WAS playing on the fact that there are no 240sx's outside of North America, and all the faster cars that have been SR powered were Silvias, which we all know are different cars (a 240 with a Silvia front end and SR isn't a Silvia, why would a Silvia be a 240??).

As for the guy who wants to know about turbocharging his engine: bang for the buck sometimes isn't the same as reliability for the buck. Any turbo engine is only going to be as reliable/ powerful as the tuner. If you want factory reliability, get an SR, have a shop install it. If you think you're a more reliable tuner than factory (as my ego leads me to think sometimes), then it's very possible to do the KA cheaper and safer. As everyone says: it's all up to your personal pref. and choice.

[creophus]

Ok...now I'm leaning towards SR again.

[ADAMHU]

yeah but the extra 400cc cannot be avoided in this debate...

Probably Duy's old car (which is now in the hands of someone else). There was so much controversy over that car from past SR vs. KA debates. Supposedly the car had about 545rwhp. Seems right to propel a 3000+ lb. car to a 10 sec. 1/4 mile (yes. 3000+ lb. Supposedly it did it's 10.8sec. run with a full interior and sound system).

Of course.... I WAS playing on the fact that there are no 240sx's outside of North America, and all the faster cars that have been SR powered were Silvias, which we all know are different cars (a 240 with a Silvia front end and SR isn't a Silvia, why would a Silvia be a 240??).

As for the guy who wants to know about turbocharging his engine: bang for the buck sometimes isn't the same as reliability for the buck. Any turbo engine is only going to be as reliable/ powerful as the tuner. If you want factory reliability, get an SR, have a shop install it. If you think you're a more reliable tuner than factory (as my ego leads me to think sometimes), then it's very possible to do the KA cheaper and safer. As everyone says: it's all up to your personal pref. and choice.

[AceInhole]

yeah but the extra 400cc cannot be avoided in this debate...

lol.... how about "I spool up like an NA engine" ???Or "I make as much power at 7psi as you at 14psi" ???Or "My rockers don't fall off.... oh wait, I don't have rockers... or a heavier head/ valve train for that matter...."Or "Oh, you blew your engine??? Ok. See you next month I guess."Or "Oh... did you notice your emissions sticker is expired?"

but yeah... I guess I forgot about the .4L thing as well as some other points....

p,s, I wonder how many SR owners have gotten comments comparing their engine note to a Corvette's??

[syka24et]

I think I want 250-350rwhp. That seems like a nice number, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

?

Stock Sr's make about 165 at the wheels with plenty of potential above that. But need to up grade a lot of things alomost like buying another turbo kit to get 350. Good thin is sr can take 350 with out a sweat. Bad thing is the cost of the motor instalationt (do-it-yourself?) And then the intsallation of the upgarades and the cost of the upgrade

A ka would just need a turbo kit (you already have the motor:D ) the average kits come with turbo's capable of 350hp+ (of course there is engine management and injectors)The bad side is at 350 you will be just about at the limits of the internals particularly the pistons (small ring lands). If the car is well tunned you will be fine though.

250 is easy number to achieve with either engine Over on freshalloy there are 2 ka's I can think of runnning only 5psi no intercooler and and are making 224hp 229tp give or take at the wheels. I would post the link but I am tired:sleep

[I am Technoman]

SR20 = a good motor

KA24 = A good motor

Guys *****in about what motor is better = STUPID!

I say go with what you know.

[creophus]

Argghhh...now I'm leaning towards KA-T If I can find a good turbo kit, for cheap...around $2000 or so, I'll probably go with that. Is there any way to get a turbo on my car for around that amount? I know that's a really small amount of money.

[I am Technoman]

Argghhh...now I'm leaning towards KA-T If I can find a good turbo kit, for cheap...around $2000 or so, I'll probably go with that. Is there any way to get a turbo on my car for around that amount? I know that's a really small amount of money.

For a good "home built" turbo kit I came up with about 2,600for a KA with stock internals.

InjectorsIntercoolermaniturboPiggy backPlumbingFuel pump and so on…..