building a KA-T (WHAT MOTOR WILL HE CHOOSE NEXT?!)

[PyR0NiAk]

He's going to do all of the work and you're calling him a douche? Isn't the purpose of a senior project to learn something, anyway? Definitely gives a good reason for it to take longer.

[WDRacing]

Stay with the KA.
Polish the intake manifold.
Strip and paint the valve cover.
Route the wiring harness through the intake manifold rather then across the top where the injectors are.
Give the head a mild port, just gasket match the intake and exhaust.
Strip the block.
Debur the block.
Paint the block.
Polish the turbo compressor housing.
Strip and paint all the pulleys.
Strip and paint/polish all of the accessories under the hood.

You can easily make work for yourself. Swapping all those motors around as part of the project is a bad idea.

[motoman399]

agreed, there is a lot to do to an engine if you really have the desire to. i probably had close to 50 hours when i rebuilt my 22r toyota engine, and i had the maching shop assemble the bottom end. there was a lot of time in the bead blaster, and cleaning and painting. i took a few hours also to port and polish. most of the tools and equipment arent that expensive to do all that stuff either. as long as you have a compressor. if your stuck on the ca then do it. but you could be the first high school kid to build a ka by yourself, and that says a lot more than "ya i have a tiny a** engine under my hood" lol. good luck man.

[PyR0NiAk]

No offense moto, but i seriously hate when one 4 cylinder owner tries to insult the displacement of another 4 cylinder. If you're that big into displacement, get a V8. Not trying to turn this into a KA vs CA vs SR vs X thread. I'm just stating the obvious, so that you realize how dumb it sounds. There are plenty of guys making serious power with less than 2.0 liters.

[WDRacing]

CA is a good motor...not that I'd swap one in. Just saying...it's a good motor.

[motoman399]

i see your point, but that is one reason ill never own an sr. i dont see the point in lowering the displacement than what came from the factory. and i may eventually go with a 302. im not against the v8's. lol. the more displacement the better. i know boost is the replacement for displacement but if you have boost on a bigger engine its going to net more power for psi generally speaking.

for instance 7 psi on a 2.0 liter versus 7 psi on a 3.0 liter with the same turbo is most likely going to be more power per psi on the 3.0 liter. you know like why start with an engine that N/A has less power. just doesnt add up to me. but as always to each his own. if you like the sr/ca then thats great for you, but its not for me lol.

plus im a hater!

[WDRacing]

It's ok to hate

[PyR0NiAk]

Replacement for displacement is EFFICIENCY. Hence why it took them so long to make a motor that made 1hp per cubic inch.

[WDRacing]

Nothing is a replacement for displacement. The ability to move more air can't be understated. You can add boost and efficiency to any size motor so in the end the only real determining factor without setting limits is displacement. All other arguments are purely emotional.

Anyone that says different is a Democrat...lol.

[PyR0NiAk]

I'm not a democrat, but look at the OLD motors.. it was the 283 that first achieved the 1bhp per cubic inch. (1957 Corvette motor) There are motors now making 400+ with less than 350 cubic inches... Obviously displacement isn't the only answer...

[WDRacing]

I'm not a democrat, but look at the OLD motors.. it was the 283 that first achieved the 1bhp per cubic inch. (1957 Corvette motor) There are motors now making 400+ with less than 350 cubic inches... Obviously displacement isn't the only answer...

Dude, you need to compare apples and apples or none at all. What 1957 4 banger was putting out mad torque? None. If all things are equal, the motor with more displacement will make more power, it's just physics.

[PyR0NiAk]

I was comparing motors in general... I think you misunderstood the point of the argument. The point is, that over time, motors have became more efficient, and now take LESS displacement to make X amount of horsepower.

[WDRacing]

Actually you misunderstood, since motoman's point was that he would never swap in a smaller motor. His point being more cubes = more power, not as technology evolves we make more power with less.

I'm only debating because I enjoy this topic

[motoman399]

wd loves to be political. lol. just curious, is the ca28de more efficient than the sr20de and ka24de? im looking for liter's per horse power.

[PyR0NiAk]

For argument's sake...

CA18DE: 131 hp/1.809 liters 72.4 hp/liter

SR20DE: 140 hp/1.998 liters 70.1 hp/liter

KA24DE: 155 hp/2.389 liters 64.9 hp/liter

CA wins... KA loses horribly!

I'm looking forward to WD's answer to this one.. Thanks for the idea moto.

Considering this is the KA-T forum, I'm sure some fanboys will be in here shortly..

[motoman399]

lol that still doesnt make me want to switch to a different engine lol cause i know with the port work im doing ill be right up there. and i dont know about horribly. i think thats a stretch. this is a funny argument lol. im enjoying it fully.

[WDRacing]

For argument's sake...

CA18DE: 131 hp/1.809 liters 72.4 hp/liter

SR20DE: 140 hp/1.998 liters 70.1 hp/liter

KA24DE: 155 hp/2.389 liters 64.9 hp/liter

CA wins... KA loses horribly!

I'm looking forward to WD's answer to this one.. Thanks for the idea moto.

Considering this is the KA-T forum, I'm sure some fanboys will be in here shortly..

If we're comparing different motor's can I find a 2.4 liter motor that makes more power then all of those? That would be fair since we're comparing different motors. But for arguments sake I won't.

This is actually an easy one to answer. If you increased the displacement of any of those motors you listed would you make more power? Yes you would.

Win for the White Devil

The CA and SR were designed to be boosted. The NA version of each motor is simply detuned and made available for people that didn't have the $$$ to buy the baller version.

For the record, you have to look at how much work the motor can do. Work = Torque. The more torque you have within the power band the more work your motor is capable of doing. The KA makes more torque then the CA and SR. Again because it was designed to be NA with no turbo option. So they used a long stroke to create the most torque possible without needing a turbo. Peak power is a useless number IMHO. It's like comparing my KAT to someone's elses that uses a smaller turbo. I'm going to make more power, but my big a** turbo doesn't spool until 4500 rpm. So My useable power curve sucks by comparison to say a T3/TO4 or even a T3 super 60.

On a positive note, this thread is now worth reading

WD

[motoman399]

This is actually an easy one to answer. If you increased the displacement of any of those motors you listed would you make more power? Yes you would.

that is a very good and easy to understand point.

On a positive note, this thread is now worth reading
WD

hell yes it is! loving it

[PyR0NiAk]

I'm not a honda boy by any means but the displacement versus efficiency argument came up at work this morning, so I figured I'd bring that motor in here because it definitely does go along with my argument. Feel free to bring in whatever 2.4 you like..

2010 Civic SI Motor: 197hp/1.998 liters 98.6hp/liter

[DMan II-40]

The CA and SR were designed to be boosted. The NA version of each motor is simply detuned and made available for people that didn't have the $$$ to buy the baller version.

For the record, you have to look at how much work the motor can do. Work = Torque. The more torque you have within the power band the more work your motor is capable of doing. The KA makes more torque then the CA and SR. Again because it was designed to be NA with no turbo option. So they used a long stroke to create the most torque possible without needing a turbo.
WD

WIN!

2010 Civic SI Motor: 197hp/1.998 liters 98.6hp/liter

HP doesn't really mean s*** to me, Torque is better. Plus VTEC is kinda stupid IMO, its just two different cam durations (low RPM is gas saving cam, and high RPM is a performance cam. At least in a nutshell). Cool concept for a daily driven car, but horrible for the real car enthusiast. WD got the argument dead on with what I quoted above.

[WDRacing]

2010 Civic SI Motor: 197hp/1.998 liters 98.6hp/liter

You're missing the WHOLE point man. I'm not asking what motor makes the most power per liter. Just because there are small motors that make efficient horse power doesn't mean that the statement, "there is no replacement for displacement" isn't a true one.

Take the above motor, bore it over .030 and retune it, bam...more power.

Here's a real simple equation. The 5.7 liter iron headed TBI motor I have in my K5 makes 150hp, but it makes almost 400 ft lbs of torque. Put your Honda motor in my blazer...make sense? Yeah it makes a high peak number, but the motor itself can do very little work unless you keep it in VTEC. Peaky motors suck to drive, that's just fact.

Think about how much work a motor can do. Yes a high rpm screamer makes lots of hp for like 4 seconds of spirited driving before you have to shift, I've owned a Civic and a Celica GTS both with VTEC, they are complete dogs to drive compared to a car with torque.

The fastest cars on the planet don't run low cube motors because no matter how efficient they are, they simply can't make as much power without the extra cubes.

WD

[motoman399]

saw a quote once in someones sig. it said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" i think it was from carol shelby. wd i love you, can we be friends lol jk jk

[DMan II-40]

saw a quote once in someones sig. it said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" i think it was from carol shelby. wd i love you, can we be friends lol jk jk

I was thinking the exact same thing. I saw that quote from someones sig too, and yes it was Shelby who said it.

[ss82480]

I'm with WD on this one.

[PyR0NiAk]

WD, I do agree with you, in the sense of torque winning races and the like IN A STRAIGHT LINE. Rotaries don't make torque yet my buddy's dad runs RX-7s on road courses like crazy. He just keeps them spooled up and he typically smoke checks the other cars he's running against. I'm still waiting on that N/A 2.4

saw a quote once in someones sig. it said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" i think it was from carol shelby. wd i love you, can we be friends lol jk jk

LMAO, I just like to get him to off on his rants. They're both entertaining and educational. Why you think I chose a Honda for my argument?

[WDRacing]

The RX-7 is a track car from the showroom floor. Love the FD...timeless classic. However, rotaries suck the huge throbbing member.

Torque is more important then HP in all types of racing. Torque will get you out of the corners quicker, speed is just a combination of torque applied through the correct gear ratio to utilize the broadest part of the torque curve.

I'm GAY for WD

[PyR0NiAk]

That's right... RUN AWAY!

[WDRacing]

Your Avatar makes me wanna call you Crack Weasel...

[PyR0NiAk]

You don't know who Flippy is?

[motoman399]

K24Z3
Power: 201 @ 7000 rpm
Torque: 172 ft @ 4300 rpm

lol damn honda's thats all i could find. but one other thing about the ka24 that i personally like is the fact that they are a cast iron block. love my ka