Jake... I gotta know who that hottie is in your avatar! My guess is Neve Campbell?
-Jesda
Boy Who Cried Iraq
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lessthanjakejohn
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Onizuka
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yashin wrote:and j-spec, the us did give iraq weapons, they did use them in the iran-iraq war, the us did look the other way, the govt. did black out the names of the companies that supplied iraq with these weapons in that report the came out a while ago
anybody with access to a library can find out that we gave saddam weapons back in the cold war era, but they weren't weapons of mass desruction or chemical weapons or the facilities to produce chemical weapons as was previously stated. But then again other countries such as france never stoped selling weapons to a dictaror that used them against is own people, american weapons were inteded to be used against soviet allies.
If you leave them alone this isnt just going to fix anything. People from Iran have still so much hate towards us cause we funded Iraq years ago when they had their war. I watched a show on PBS where a British female reporter talked to a Dr. in a village in Iran and thats all he wanted to talk about, not about how women in Islamic countries are mistreaded but how Americans are terrorists cause they do this and that. That war happened decades ago but he still only wanted to talk about how american choppers with Iraqi airforce emblems on them took out bridges and such. If they carry that for so long they wont stop. They will try to get their revenge at any cost and at anytime. Even if they have to wait years for it. The perfect example is in Palestine/Israel, they dont have a military but they will keep fighting as long as they can and it doesnt seem to be any end to that. It's a conflict Israel started years ago and now they have to deal with it, thats how some of these terrorists feel about us, all the stuff we started back in the day, it's never too late for payback in their eyes. This war might not rid the entire world of terrorists, but I do belive it hampers some of them, and makes it more difficult.
On the crap that plagues our country, energy problems isn't the only thing, we have Social Security that might not even be there for us, Health care is shot to s h i t. Plus those freaking SUV's, can you belive it that congress passed a bill that if you have a SUV and use it for work you could write off 38,200 on taxes? Plus in May of this year they raised that to 100,000. So you buy 2 H2's pay 104k and in the end all you pay is 4k, not a bad deal, but that piece of crap only gets 10mph. And we have to depend on outside source for energy cause of that "Big Amercian" thinking. You guys should watch Bowling for Columbine, awesome movie, it talks about lots of stuff wrong with our country, it is also somewhat anti-Bush.
On the crap that plagues our country, energy problems isn't the only thing, we have Social Security that might not even be there for us, Health care is shot to s h i t. Plus those freaking SUV's, can you belive it that congress passed a bill that if you have a SUV and use it for work you could write off 38,200 on taxes? Plus in May of this year they raised that to 100,000. So you buy 2 H2's pay 104k and in the end all you pay is 4k, not a bad deal, but that piece of crap only gets 10mph. And we have to depend on outside source for energy cause of that "Big Amercian" thinking. You guys should watch Bowling for Columbine, awesome movie, it talks about lots of stuff wrong with our country, it is also somewhat anti-Bush.
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lessthanjakejohn
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krazy skwerel
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Illegal Immigrants
The illegal immigrants with relation to Iraqi has just been a rant of mine lately. Personally, I live in Southern California. I wish that I spoke better Spanish than I do, it would make my life a lot easier. I appreciate the fact that I have a taquaria right up the street where I can get authentic Mexican food, from people who have come to this country to make money. That's cool, they're setting good examples for the rest of us. Ie. (Start a business, invest in your community, reap the rewards of having done so).
I just see a strange dicotomy between those who are all gung-ho to lock our country against illegal aliens, and the idea that it's okay to go adopt a whole 3rd world country in the middle of the desert. I could have just as well as have said Homeless people, instead of immigrants. At least the homeless people aren't shooting at us, and trying to keep our companies from investing in their "problem".
I just see a strange dicotomy between those who are all gung-ho to lock our country against illegal aliens, and the idea that it's okay to go adopt a whole 3rd world country in the middle of the desert. I could have just as well as have said Homeless people, instead of immigrants. At least the homeless people aren't shooting at us, and trying to keep our companies from investing in their "problem".
John, good link for the Bowling for Columbine thing! That's part of the reason I'm a conservative...I dont really trust EITHER political party, I just trust the conservatives to tell the truth a little more often than the liberals who IMO bend the facts TOO far. The sad fact is that no matter what, our government will never tell us the whole story no matter who is in power. You just have to pick the best option and realize that even if THEY are honorable, their staff etc. might not be.
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big jon's 240
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Quote »There is no arguing with people who support Bush and this war. They are for the most part flag thumping mindless jingoists who eat up all the media and Bush propaganda.
I've had my arguments with them and it just goes in circles with crap about Osama (nothing to do with Iraq) and blaming me for not eating up their bull**** and being unpatriotic. [/quote]
Id be the last to call you unpatriotic if you dont agree with the war. But you have to agree that the people agianst the war, are just as hard headed as those of us who are for it.
Quote »I know what this is all about and I know it was a stupid idea and cost the American people too much in money and lives. [/quote] Id sure like to know how you know for a fact what the rest of us dont. Enlighten me.
I've had my arguments with them and it just goes in circles with crap about Osama (nothing to do with Iraq) and blaming me for not eating up their bull**** and being unpatriotic. [/quote]
Id be the last to call you unpatriotic if you dont agree with the war. But you have to agree that the people agianst the war, are just as hard headed as those of us who are for it.
Quote »I know what this is all about and I know it was a stupid idea and cost the American people too much in money and lives. [/quote] Id sure like to know how you know for a fact what the rest of us dont. Enlighten me.
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by APEXi240 "]What job? Elimating terrorists? They did such a great job that the Marriot in Jakarta got bombed, the UN building in Iraq got bombed twice, we have yet to find Osama (who just released two tapes in the past couple of days), we have yet to find these illusive WMDs. Which job? The one where we piss off all the Afghanis cause it took about two years to come up with a constitution we can all wipe our butts with?
The job of freeing millions of innocent lives that have been oppressed under a tyrannical dictator. Have you already forgotten the dozens of mass graves that totaled hundreds of thousands of corpses? Has the media and all your liberal influences effectively washed the nasty taste of reality off your tongue so that you can be manipulated into thinking that WE are the bad guys? It makes me sick that some of you can be so easily taken away from the heart of the matter at hand, so that election year politics can have the front seat and you can all be comfortable with electing another spineless twirp that will perpetuate the problem like old Billy Clinton did for 8 years.
Talk to any former Iraqi citizen who moved here to start new lives before the liberation of Iraq. Tell them that what WE did was wrong. Tell that former Iraqi that we were wrong for freeing his children that were not allowed to come with him to the US, and who could not speak openly with him over the phone for fear of being killed if they said the wrong thing. While he's sitting at the dinner table with his newly reunited family.... go ahead and grab his kids and say hey... we made a mistake freeing your country... we're gonna have to take these little s*** back to Iraq. So sorry.
Get off your self-righteous high horse for a minute and stop thinking about all the things that go wrong when we get ourselves involved, and think about what we've done right. I swear there is not a more selfish population of unappreciative basturds in the world than this one we live in. We are not the world's police, but some times we have to get our hands dirty and do the RIGHT thing even if it pisses off a bunch of pansy-a$$ed liberals who have nothing better to do than propagandize the whole affair so that they might have a chance at getting elected. It is disturbing that you would vilify a great man who did what he felt was right... just to further your cause. Do you really think we are the bad guys? I truly pity you if that's the case. Open your damn eyes.
There are always going to be problems when you use military force to accomplish a goal, but sometimes there are no other alternatives. We have been bargaining with Sadam for nearly two decades to no avail. The people of Iraq... and the rest of the world ARE better off now.
I suppose we should have backed out of the revolutionary war once a few lives were lost because it was no longer a pretty little idealistic movement. I suppose the same should have held true for the civil war, we should have just let the south have their way and never shed any blood over the whole sorted affair. What about WWII... I guess it was none of our business trying to put a stop to genocide because it might cost us some money... and hey it's not in our backyard... so why should we care? RRrrriiiiiight
The job of freeing millions of innocent lives that have been oppressed under a tyrannical dictator. Have you already forgotten the dozens of mass graves that totaled hundreds of thousands of corpses? Has the media and all your liberal influences effectively washed the nasty taste of reality off your tongue so that you can be manipulated into thinking that WE are the bad guys? It makes me sick that some of you can be so easily taken away from the heart of the matter at hand, so that election year politics can have the front seat and you can all be comfortable with electing another spineless twirp that will perpetuate the problem like old Billy Clinton did for 8 years.
Talk to any former Iraqi citizen who moved here to start new lives before the liberation of Iraq. Tell them that what WE did was wrong. Tell that former Iraqi that we were wrong for freeing his children that were not allowed to come with him to the US, and who could not speak openly with him over the phone for fear of being killed if they said the wrong thing. While he's sitting at the dinner table with his newly reunited family.... go ahead and grab his kids and say hey... we made a mistake freeing your country... we're gonna have to take these little s*** back to Iraq. So sorry.
Get off your self-righteous high horse for a minute and stop thinking about all the things that go wrong when we get ourselves involved, and think about what we've done right. I swear there is not a more selfish population of unappreciative basturds in the world than this one we live in. We are not the world's police, but some times we have to get our hands dirty and do the RIGHT thing even if it pisses off a bunch of pansy-a$$ed liberals who have nothing better to do than propagandize the whole affair so that they might have a chance at getting elected. It is disturbing that you would vilify a great man who did what he felt was right... just to further your cause. Do you really think we are the bad guys? I truly pity you if that's the case. Open your damn eyes.
There are always going to be problems when you use military force to accomplish a goal, but sometimes there are no other alternatives. We have been bargaining with Sadam for nearly two decades to no avail. The people of Iraq... and the rest of the world ARE better off now.
I suppose we should have backed out of the revolutionary war once a few lives were lost because it was no longer a pretty little idealistic movement. I suppose the same should have held true for the civil war, we should have just let the south have their way and never shed any blood over the whole sorted affair. What about WWII... I guess it was none of our business trying to put a stop to genocide because it might cost us some money... and hey it's not in our backyard... so why should we care? RRrrriiiiiight
This lives lost thing is crap...it sucks that Americans are dying over there but it is a SMALL number compared to the number of soldiers that have died in other conflicts of ours. We do much more good than harm in this world and I for one am glad Bush and his people dont mind stepping on a few toes to do even more good. I just wish he could get away with taking on a few more countries, unfortunately the brainwashed masses of America would be in an uproar over it.
Illegal immigration's a hot topic right now in the California gubernatorial race.
Has anyone seen the makeshift, chicken-wire fences that seperate the Southwest from its original proprietors? It couldn't keep a starved helfer out much less deter the efforts of a brazen, determined immigrant whose already treked miles upon miles of 110+ temp. desert. If we were really serious about it, I'm sure the federal gov. could fork up the money to put the friggin Great Wall of China there.
The reality is that illegal immigrants are an unwelcomed but necessary part of our economy. Illegal immigrants make up 97% of the agricultural workforce in California and even these numbers are conservative. Competing for resources with burgeoning suburbs, farmers are feeling the squeeze and most would not see the light of day without their illegal immigrant workforces. Most of these people work back-breaking jobs for mere cents an hour or cents per bushel. Extremely efficient labor + dirt cheap pay = profits for farmers, corporations and cheaper produce and KFC extra crispy 5-packs for us. For a glimpse into corporate benefactors, look no further than good ole Col. Sanders.
Truth is, the tourism and healthcare industries would absolutely collapse if it were not for Mexican, Philippino, Russian, Dominican, Haitian, Jamaican, Chinese, etc. immigrants. Just take a look at Vegas, Reno, Orlando and every other major tourist hotspot. The revenues generated by these industries tramples lost tax dollars.
Some of my immigrant brothers perform the most physically-taxing jobs this side of my ancestors in the southern cotton plantations. It's a damn shame these people get overlooked and sometimes disparaged in our country, they deserve a helluva lot more respect for the obstacles they've faced in coming here and the hardships they deal with everyday.
Has anyone seen the makeshift, chicken-wire fences that seperate the Southwest from its original proprietors? It couldn't keep a starved helfer out much less deter the efforts of a brazen, determined immigrant whose already treked miles upon miles of 110+ temp. desert. If we were really serious about it, I'm sure the federal gov. could fork up the money to put the friggin Great Wall of China there.
The reality is that illegal immigrants are an unwelcomed but necessary part of our economy. Illegal immigrants make up 97% of the agricultural workforce in California and even these numbers are conservative. Competing for resources with burgeoning suburbs, farmers are feeling the squeeze and most would not see the light of day without their illegal immigrant workforces. Most of these people work back-breaking jobs for mere cents an hour or cents per bushel. Extremely efficient labor + dirt cheap pay = profits for farmers, corporations and cheaper produce and KFC extra crispy 5-packs for us. For a glimpse into corporate benefactors, look no further than good ole Col. Sanders.
Truth is, the tourism and healthcare industries would absolutely collapse if it were not for Mexican, Philippino, Russian, Dominican, Haitian, Jamaican, Chinese, etc. immigrants. Just take a look at Vegas, Reno, Orlando and every other major tourist hotspot. The revenues generated by these industries tramples lost tax dollars.
Some of my immigrant brothers perform the most physically-taxing jobs this side of my ancestors in the southern cotton plantations. It's a damn shame these people get overlooked and sometimes disparaged in our country, they deserve a helluva lot more respect for the obstacles they've faced in coming here and the hardships they deal with everyday.
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MaineExport
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Aztek,
While I agree that illegal immigrant workers are a HUGE part of the agricultural workforce I take issue with you saying that the farmers see a significant part of the profits. The family farm is an industry that is constantly on the verge of collapse. Even the huge corporate farming giants have a hard time operating in the black. The numbers are cut so close that they would be sunk were it not for the dirt cheap and efficient labor you speak of. The real profit hounds are the wholesalers and retailers.
That being said... as much as I respect the immigrant workers and what they contribute to our society... they are here illegally and there is little stopping them from doing what my ancestors did and establishing themselves as US citizens. We have very liberal immigration policies and if you want to be treated as "one of us".... become one of us!
The economy and industry have a habbit of correcting themselves with VERY LITTLE influence from the fed. So, if these workers became citizens we might experience some inflation as a result, but the effects would soon be consumed by the mighty giant we call the economy.
Also, without being able to quote any real statistics, I have read that the illegal immigrants have virtually crippled the healthcare industry in California. Were these people to be legitimate citizens they would be eligable for health insurance benefits and relieve the burden on the state to fund their healthcare.
While I agree that illegal immigrant workers are a HUGE part of the agricultural workforce I take issue with you saying that the farmers see a significant part of the profits. The family farm is an industry that is constantly on the verge of collapse. Even the huge corporate farming giants have a hard time operating in the black. The numbers are cut so close that they would be sunk were it not for the dirt cheap and efficient labor you speak of. The real profit hounds are the wholesalers and retailers.
That being said... as much as I respect the immigrant workers and what they contribute to our society... they are here illegally and there is little stopping them from doing what my ancestors did and establishing themselves as US citizens. We have very liberal immigration policies and if you want to be treated as "one of us".... become one of us!
The economy and industry have a habbit of correcting themselves with VERY LITTLE influence from the fed. So, if these workers became citizens we might experience some inflation as a result, but the effects would soon be consumed by the mighty giant we call the economy.
Also, without being able to quote any real statistics, I have read that the illegal immigrants have virtually crippled the healthcare industry in California. Were these people to be legitimate citizens they would be eligable for health insurance benefits and relieve the burden on the state to fund their healthcare.
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MaineExport
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Maine, my main man, I was counting on a hard-hitting, well-written response from you. You never disappoint me bro.
The issue of immigration is like the proverbial chicken-and-egg argument. There's really no easily discernible solution to the problem. I agree that illegal immigrants should make an effort to become naturalized citizens as well.
As for farming, I should've clarified my points a little better. By profits, I didn't mean to insinuate that small, family-owned farms were generated insane profits by hiring illegal immigrants. I was referring to moderately-sized operations and the corporate farms you mentioned. What often gets overlooked by the masses is that California IS the heartbeat of American agriculture and farm commodities is a big chunk of California's revenue.
Added pressure from residential developers and stiff competition has created this growing trend where farmers are forced to integrate with the corporations or shut down their operations. In order to compete with these ever-growing corporate farms, small farmers are forced to rely on outsourcing their labor to bands of immigrants. I've seen this first-hand where a farmer rolled out a fleet of vans in the morning to pick up his workers. They have little option but to seek cheap labor and who's to blame them? I can't hold it against a man to hire the lowest wage workers just so his farm can make it another day.
About California's healthcare system. I haven't the slightest idea but I'd be willing to bet Nevada, Arizona and maybe Texas have nearly the same amount of immigrants (per population) as CA. I think their failed system has more to do with financial mismanagement by the head honchos than anything.
It's good to see someone can get their point across in a good, civil manner.
The issue of immigration is like the proverbial chicken-and-egg argument. There's really no easily discernible solution to the problem. I agree that illegal immigrants should make an effort to become naturalized citizens as well.
As for farming, I should've clarified my points a little better. By profits, I didn't mean to insinuate that small, family-owned farms were generated insane profits by hiring illegal immigrants. I was referring to moderately-sized operations and the corporate farms you mentioned. What often gets overlooked by the masses is that California IS the heartbeat of American agriculture and farm commodities is a big chunk of California's revenue.
Added pressure from residential developers and stiff competition has created this growing trend where farmers are forced to integrate with the corporations or shut down their operations. In order to compete with these ever-growing corporate farms, small farmers are forced to rely on outsourcing their labor to bands of immigrants. I've seen this first-hand where a farmer rolled out a fleet of vans in the morning to pick up his workers. They have little option but to seek cheap labor and who's to blame them? I can't hold it against a man to hire the lowest wage workers just so his farm can make it another day.
About California's healthcare system. I haven't the slightest idea but I'd be willing to bet Nevada, Arizona and maybe Texas have nearly the same amount of immigrants (per population) as CA. I think their failed system has more to do with financial mismanagement by the head honchos than anything.
It's good to see someone can get their point across in a good, civil manner.
Although I agree with the premise of Bowling for Columbine, I think it was dishonest of Michael Moore to manipulate some facts and employ some cinematic trickery to make Chuck Heston look like some gun-crazed, incompetent, hooligan.
Notice how all his interviewees are a bunch of extreme, gun-toting, half-wits? Look at Moore's movie dossier: Roger and Me, Bowling, The Big One. Each interviewee is portrayed in an unflattering light to say the least. On the other hand, Moore completely falls in love with himself by the end of the movie.
It was a good movie and an important one in this day and age but for all the factual errors and blatant manipulations can't be taken as an historical narrative. It's a shame this movie beat out Winged Migration in the documentary dept.
Notice how all his interviewees are a bunch of extreme, gun-toting, half-wits? Look at Moore's movie dossier: Roger and Me, Bowling, The Big One. Each interviewee is portrayed in an unflattering light to say the least. On the other hand, Moore completely falls in love with himself by the end of the movie.
It was a good movie and an important one in this day and age but for all the factual errors and blatant manipulations can't be taken as an historical narrative. It's a shame this movie beat out Winged Migration in the documentary dept.
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lessthanjakejohn
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MaineExport
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MaineExport
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Aztek72 wrote:Maine, my main man, I was counting on a hard-hitting, well-written response from you. You never disappoint me bro.
It's good to see someone can get their point across in a good, civil manner.
Always happy to contribute to a spirited debate with people of a greater intellect than my own! (I reserve the right to retract that statement at any time
)I wish you were around more when VimyJ was posting. You share similar opinions as far as I can see... although you seem to be MUCH more realistic and lack the propensity to misrepresent opinion as fact! I appreciate that.
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lessthanjakejohn
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I see many simliarities between Hitler and Bush. Also I see a few similarties between the plot of Muslims today and Jews 55 years ago.
Although I am very tired right now and must do some shakespeare homework. Will get back with some the actual details later. Nothing serious, just makes me wonder.
another Nazi:"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Although I am very tired right now and must do some shakespeare homework. Will get back with some the actual details later. Nothing serious, just makes me wonder.
another Nazi:"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
MaineExport wrote:The job of freeing millions of innocent lives that have been oppressed under a tyrannical dictator. Have you already forgotten the dozens of mass graves that totaled hundreds of thousands of corpses? Has the media and all your liberal influences effectively washed the nasty taste of reality off your tongue so that you can be manipulated into thinking that WE are the bad guys? It makes me sick that some of you can be so easily taken away from the heart of the matter at hand, so that election year politics can have the front seat and you can all be comfortable with electing another spineless twirp that will perpetuate the problem like old Billy Clinton did for 8 years.
Talk to any former Iraqi citizen who moved here to start new lives before the liberation of Iraq. Tell them that what WE did was wrong. Tell that former Iraqi that we were wrong for freeing his children that were not allowed to come with him to the US, and who could not speak openly with him over the phone for fear of being killed if they said the wrong thing. While he's sitting at the dinner table with his newly reunited family.... go ahead and grab his kids and say hey... we made a mistake freeing your country... we're gonna have to take these little s*** back to Iraq. So sorry.
Get off your self-righteous high horse for a minute and stop thinking about all the things that go wrong when we get ourselves involved, and think about what we've done right. I swear there is not a more selfish population of unappreciative basturds in the world than this one we live in. We are not the world's police, but some times we have to get our hands dirty and do the RIGHT thing even if it pisses off a bunch of pansy-a$$ed liberals who have nothing better to do than propagandize the whole affair so that they might have a chance at getting elected. It is disturbing that you would vilify a great man who did what he felt was right... just to further your cause. Do you really think we are the bad guys? I truly pity you if that's the case. Open your damn eyes.
There are always going to be problems when you use military force to accomplish a goal, but sometimes there are no other alternatives. We have been bargaining with Sadam for nearly two decades to no avail. The people of Iraq... and the rest of the world ARE better off now.
I suppose we should have backed out of the revolutionary war once a few lives were lost because it was no longer a pretty little idealistic movement. I suppose the same should have held true for the civil war, we should have just let the south have their way and never shed any blood over the whole sorted affair. What about WWII... I guess it was none of our business trying to put a stop to genocide because it might cost us some money... and hey it's not in our backyard... so why should we care? RRrrriiiiiight
Revolutionary War and us invading another country aren't even comparable.
I am by no means liberal, just because you question and disagree with an issue doesn't make you some nut job leftist...however those accusations do make you sound a bit too conservative. Every super-right wing middle aged conservative I talk to is sooo quick to label you a liberal if you disagree with even one of their views, it's ridiculious.
We put a stop to genocide where we want. You don't see us going into Africa every time there is a civil war in which hundreds of thousands of people are constantly dieing. God forbid we even attempt to get China into the 21st century in dealing with human rights...Its not economically feasable to stop killings in these contries, yet when we do it in Iraq everyone is so defensive when questions are raised.
Yes he was a dictator and was a horrible person, but you sound like every other right wing guy kissing Bush's ***. It turned from a terrorlst/WMD issue to a "humanitarian" issue. That is not why we went in there. We were lied to, by the Oval Office, to commit a war for regime change. Every conservative is so happy to point out mass graves, ect...but that is not the issue as to why we went to war.
Have you seen any newscasts from Iraq as of late? Have you seen what Iraqis have to say? They don't want us there. One worker stated that he felt safer with Saddam in power, at least he provided them with security and electricity and running water. Like I mentioned previously I have a proffessor who has relatives there, and the same these same concerns are being raised by MANY people there. From May 1st until now we still have not been able to restore consistant power...there are still periods of 3-4 hour blackouts. We haven't done all that much good for the Iraqi people.
Its mind-blowing to think that liberals are the only ones progandizing this war...maybe you should read some foreign news instead of just listening to that jackass Brokaw, or Rathers.
Who said I'm on a high horse? I don't have a better solution, I am just saying that it was a poor choice to exaggerate, and fabricate WMD and terrorlst stories to go to war. When this all first happened I supported the war, I thought what we were doing was right...because I was uninformed and mislead about why we were going in there.
When the people stop questioning the actions and positions of the government, it is no longer a democracy.
I for one dont care why we invaded Iraq, I DO think they harbored terrorlst (come on, what middle eastern country doesn't?) Bush knew that Saddam needed to be taken out and he did what he had to do to get the job done. If it was oil related, why did we not take Iraq out the first time? If Bush had told the American public that we needed to oust Saddam because he was torturing his own people, had killed thousands of Kurds etc. then all that would have happened would have been more calls for a diplomatic non-violent solution. Those have been tried, for 10 years nothing worked with Saddam and he continuously disobeyed UN sanctions, rules, and regulations against him. It's time the damn liberals got past the issue of it being a war and realize it's just an extension of diplomacy, war is what you do when you cant talk things out and things were NEVER going to get talked out with that lying piece of trash Saddam. I wish people would realize that things reach a point sometime where violence DOES solve the problem instead of believing what they have heard from birth forward that violence is not the answer. Sometimes we just need to get in there and **** some people up. Does anyone happen to stop and think that maybe, just maybe, Bush actually did believe there were WMD in Iraq? It doesn't take much past a cursory look into Iraq's past to see that it wouldn't be too far fetched for them to be building WMD's.
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big jon's 240
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Nathan wrote:I for one dont care why we invaded Iraq, I DO think they harbored terrorlst (come on, what middle eastern country doesn't?) If Bush had told the American public that we needed to oust Saddam because he was torturing his own people, had killed thousands of Kurds etc. then all that would have happened would have been more calls for a diplomatic non-violent solution. Those have been tried, for 10 years nothing worked with Saddam and he continuously disobeyed UN sanctions, rules, and regulations against him. It's time the damn liberals got past the issue of it being a war and realize it's just an extension of diplomacy, war is what you do when you cant talk things out and things were NEVER going to get talked out with that lying piece of trash Saddam. I wish people would realize that things reach a point sometime where violence DOES solve the problem instead of believing what they have heard from birth forward that violence is not the answer. Sometimes we just need to get in there and **** some people up. Does anyone happen to stop and think that maybe, just maybe, Bush actually did believe there were WMD in Iraq? It doesn't take much past a cursory look into Iraq's past to see that it wouldn't be too far fetched for them to be building WMD's.
Every country harbors (knowingly or not) terrorism...terrorlst cells are broken up almost every day in every single country...why don't we invade Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Tunisia...? The fact is the only "known" terrorlst training camp (the one referred to in Powell's and Bush's addresses last year) was in KURDISH territory, where Saddam has no control because of UN sanctions. Would it be fair if I locked you in your house, then threatened to give you a parking ticket unless you moved your car, which would be impossible?
War is not an extension of diplomacy, it is the opposite of it.
How could Bush believe there were WMDs when Blix told him there was no evidence, the CIA told him they found no evidence? The UN weapons inspectors worked well until 98, and they were working well until Saddam's "deadline" was up.
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by APEXi240 "]Revolutionary War and us invading another country aren't even comparable.
You are using the argument that we have lost American lives and spent American money to fight for what it right. In that regard they are VERY similar wars. I am questioning your rational. Are you saying that since lives are lost and money is spent that we should avoid conflict at all costs? No matter how right or just the end results are?
I am by no means liberal,
And I am by no means a "super-right wing middle aged conservative" like you are about to accuse me of.
just because you question and disagree with an issue doesn't make you some nut job leftist...
No, but it does leave you open to criticism and puts you in the unenviable position of defending your argument...
however those accusations do make you sound a bit too conservative.
Not accusing anyone... again... I'm questioning how much thought YOU'VE put into those arguments. By the logic you've presented, no war is worth the human and financial cost. You need to have a little more foresight about how these issues effect the greater good of the world, not just how they play out in election politics.
Every super-right wing middle aged conservative I talk to is sooo quick to label you a liberal if you disagree with even one of their views, it's ridiculious.
HEY... there it is! I knew you called me a name somewhere! Oh well, I guess if I have to be labeled... that's one I'll wear with pride... although I'm far from middle aged.
We put a stop to genocide where we want.
Hrm... more likely where we CAN. We may be strong... but we are not all powerful. If we had our way I'm sure the entire world would march to the beat of Uncle Sam's drum... but this is REALITY, not some liberal utopian vacuum that you rant loquaciously about.
God forbid we even attempt to get China into the 21st century in dealing with human rights
Yeah... we agree on this one.
Yes he was a dictator and was a horrible person, but you sound like every other right wing guy kissing Bush's ***. It turned from a terrorlst/WMD issue to a "humanitarian" issue.
Even Hans Blix himself said Iraq HAS or HAD WMD's. It never turned away from a WMD issue. The weapons have either been sold, moved, or hidden. And this was never NOT an issue of humanitarian concern. No, that wasn't the main reason for removing Sadam, but it certainly isn't as you are leading us to believe. But then again... I guess even though we did a good thing.. all that matters is making Bush look bad. Ignore the success and focus on our inability to find WMD's. Man... you really don't care about the reality of the situation... Have you seen any newscasts from Iraq as of late?
No... and obviously neither have you.
Have you seen what Iraqis have to say? They don't want us there.
Ummm... what is your source for this? I've seen that sentiment on US news casts that are notoriously liberally biased. I talk daily with 3 cousins that are all originally from Iraq. They, and their families that remain in Iraq, are MORE than elated to have the US military presence.
From May 1st until now we still have not been able to restore consistant power...there are still periods of 3-4 hour blackouts. We haven't done all that much good for the Iraqi people.
Yeah and the earth was created in 7 days. You think we'd be able to rebuild a little tiny country in less than an hour... ya know? :rolleyes
Its mind-blowing to think that liberals are the only ones progandizing this war...
No, but it is mind blowing that you continue to use these propagandized arguments. I am quite aware that both sides spin the ‘facts’ and issues.
maybe you should read some foreign news instead of just listening to that jackass Brokaw, or Rathers.
Haha… yeah… trust me, I don’t listen to either of them. They are far too biased for my tastes.
I am just saying that it was a poor choice to exaggerate, and fabricate WMD and terrorlst stories to go to war. When this all first happened I supported the war, I thought what we were doing was right...because I was uninformed and mislead about why we were going in there.
Well… you were also uninformed and misled by whoever filled your head with the idea that what Bush and company did was bad. You still fail to see the point. No… we haven’t found WMD’s, no we don’t have Sadam’s or Bin Laden’s head on a post… but we have made tremendous strides in fighting terrorism and freeing a nation. Ya don’t like it… your vote counts just as much as mine… so use it.
You are using the argument that we have lost American lives and spent American money to fight for what it right. In that regard they are VERY similar wars. I am questioning your rational. Are you saying that since lives are lost and money is spent that we should avoid conflict at all costs? No matter how right or just the end results are?
I am by no means liberal,
And I am by no means a "super-right wing middle aged conservative" like you are about to accuse me of.
just because you question and disagree with an issue doesn't make you some nut job leftist...
No, but it does leave you open to criticism and puts you in the unenviable position of defending your argument...
however those accusations do make you sound a bit too conservative.
Not accusing anyone... again... I'm questioning how much thought YOU'VE put into those arguments. By the logic you've presented, no war is worth the human and financial cost. You need to have a little more foresight about how these issues effect the greater good of the world, not just how they play out in election politics.
Every super-right wing middle aged conservative I talk to is sooo quick to label you a liberal if you disagree with even one of their views, it's ridiculious.
HEY... there it is! I knew you called me a name somewhere! Oh well, I guess if I have to be labeled... that's one I'll wear with pride... although I'm far from middle aged.
We put a stop to genocide where we want.
Hrm... more likely where we CAN. We may be strong... but we are not all powerful. If we had our way I'm sure the entire world would march to the beat of Uncle Sam's drum... but this is REALITY, not some liberal utopian vacuum that you rant loquaciously about.
God forbid we even attempt to get China into the 21st century in dealing with human rights
Yeah... we agree on this one.
Yes he was a dictator and was a horrible person, but you sound like every other right wing guy kissing Bush's ***. It turned from a terrorlst/WMD issue to a "humanitarian" issue.
Even Hans Blix himself said Iraq HAS or HAD WMD's. It never turned away from a WMD issue. The weapons have either been sold, moved, or hidden. And this was never NOT an issue of humanitarian concern. No, that wasn't the main reason for removing Sadam, but it certainly isn't as you are leading us to believe. But then again... I guess even though we did a good thing.. all that matters is making Bush look bad. Ignore the success and focus on our inability to find WMD's. Man... you really don't care about the reality of the situation... Have you seen any newscasts from Iraq as of late?
No... and obviously neither have you.
Have you seen what Iraqis have to say? They don't want us there.
Ummm... what is your source for this? I've seen that sentiment on US news casts that are notoriously liberally biased. I talk daily with 3 cousins that are all originally from Iraq. They, and their families that remain in Iraq, are MORE than elated to have the US military presence.
From May 1st until now we still have not been able to restore consistant power...there are still periods of 3-4 hour blackouts. We haven't done all that much good for the Iraqi people.
Yeah and the earth was created in 7 days. You think we'd be able to rebuild a little tiny country in less than an hour... ya know? :rolleyes
Its mind-blowing to think that liberals are the only ones progandizing this war...
No, but it is mind blowing that you continue to use these propagandized arguments. I am quite aware that both sides spin the ‘facts’ and issues.
maybe you should read some foreign news instead of just listening to that jackass Brokaw, or Rathers.
Haha… yeah… trust me, I don’t listen to either of them. They are far too biased for my tastes.
I am just saying that it was a poor choice to exaggerate, and fabricate WMD and terrorlst stories to go to war. When this all first happened I supported the war, I thought what we were doing was right...because I was uninformed and mislead about why we were going in there.
Well… you were also uninformed and misled by whoever filled your head with the idea that what Bush and company did was bad. You still fail to see the point. No… we haven’t found WMD’s, no we don’t have Sadam’s or Bin Laden’s head on a post… but we have made tremendous strides in fighting terrorism and freeing a nation. Ya don’t like it… your vote counts just as much as mine… so use it.
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big jon's 240
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I use my vote every year...
I didn't accuse you of being a middle-age....ect, I compared you to one. I'm sure not all of your views align with being a conservative.
The 'facts' are that we have found no evidence of an active chemical, nuclear, or biological weapons program. We've eliminated ONE terrorlst training camp (see previous post).
Hans Blix said 'has or had'? What was the time table on had, because that will make all the difference. I never came across any articles at the time stating that he knows the weapons are there, if you have something to this effect I would like to read it (honestly, not being sarcastic).
What evidence is there that the weapons were sold, hidden, or moved? The country is the size of California...hidden or moved, they should have been found already. Powell showed us satellite photos of every suspected chemical weapons site, if they moved weapons would we at least have been able to see that? I'm not sure but we've had 12 years of reconnisance on Iraq, I'd think we have a good idea of what is going on in the country...
My statement about the Iraqis' peoples reaction was one-sided I do admit that, but it just seems that more and more articles I'm reading it seems discontent is rising. I'm sure there are many people were elated about US arrival. My "source" for the comment I made was one of my proffessors at school is middle eastern and has friends and family in Iraq, those are some of the questions them and the people around them are raising.
What I also don't understand is why do we go to war over mass killlings now? Why now when we have overlooked it for the past 20+ years? Just because he isn't our ally anymore? Also, I said where we want because in a place like Liberia where thousands of people starved, hundreds died, US intervention would have been much simplier in comparison to the war with Iraq, yet very little was done.
I think freeing the millions of people from an oppressive leader is a good thing. I just feel that if there was a current humanitarian issue there of genocide, the would have been a ton of UN support and support for other countries (as in Serbia). I feel that it was wrong to simply ignore other countries, and ignore the UN to fight a "preemptive" war. I am still consistant in believing that the WMD issue and the harboring terrorism issue were exageratted and played off to the public as the reason to going there. That is why I think what they did is bad...I don't think the outcome is bad, well its bad, but it could have turned out much worse, no outcome of war is ever going to initially be good.
I didn't accuse you of being a middle-age....ect, I compared you to one. I'm sure not all of your views align with being a conservative.
The 'facts' are that we have found no evidence of an active chemical, nuclear, or biological weapons program. We've eliminated ONE terrorlst training camp (see previous post).
Hans Blix said 'has or had'? What was the time table on had, because that will make all the difference. I never came across any articles at the time stating that he knows the weapons are there, if you have something to this effect I would like to read it (honestly, not being sarcastic).
What evidence is there that the weapons were sold, hidden, or moved? The country is the size of California...hidden or moved, they should have been found already. Powell showed us satellite photos of every suspected chemical weapons site, if they moved weapons would we at least have been able to see that? I'm not sure but we've had 12 years of reconnisance on Iraq, I'd think we have a good idea of what is going on in the country...
My statement about the Iraqis' peoples reaction was one-sided I do admit that, but it just seems that more and more articles I'm reading it seems discontent is rising. I'm sure there are many people were elated about US arrival. My "source" for the comment I made was one of my proffessors at school is middle eastern and has friends and family in Iraq, those are some of the questions them and the people around them are raising.
What I also don't understand is why do we go to war over mass killlings now? Why now when we have overlooked it for the past 20+ years? Just because he isn't our ally anymore? Also, I said where we want because in a place like Liberia where thousands of people starved, hundreds died, US intervention would have been much simplier in comparison to the war with Iraq, yet very little was done.
I think freeing the millions of people from an oppressive leader is a good thing. I just feel that if there was a current humanitarian issue there of genocide, the would have been a ton of UN support and support for other countries (as in Serbia). I feel that it was wrong to simply ignore other countries, and ignore the UN to fight a "preemptive" war. I am still consistant in believing that the WMD issue and the harboring terrorism issue were exageratted and played off to the public as the reason to going there. That is why I think what they did is bad...I don't think the outcome is bad, well its bad, but it could have turned out much worse, no outcome of war is ever going to initially be good.