Boy Who Cried Iraq

[lessthanjakejohn]

Your getting too emotional, who cares that a kurdish child was gassed when hundreds, possibly thousands of iraqi children have been killed by bombs, but that is right because it is in the name of good, right? Now I could possibly make a parallel to the crusades.

That is not the point though. The point I am trying to discuss here is why we are in such deep s*** and what the hell are we going to do about it.

[nuQ]

problem with picking the wrong solution is, americans are getting killed with this wrong solution!!!!!!! what kind of rational is that!! if i picked the wrong solution to a problem and your parents or wife or kids got killed, would you say, "oh well, he picked the wrong solution"!!! i doubt it. let's not forget, when it comes to iraq, and osama bin laden (according to our government, the ring leaders in global terrorism), they were both trained and funded by our own cia. seems to be a short leap from "freedom fighters" to "terrorists"!!!! a small step to stopping this global hatred of the united states, might be to stop secretly training dictators and rebel forces, for the benefit of a small group of americans, with all the weapons of terrorists. saddam was given weapons of mass destruction, and chemical weapons, and chemical manufacturing plants in his fight with iran. while osama bin laden was trained by the cia in the afghan fight with the soviets. when the us turned it's back on it's promise to rebuild afghanistan, a very large hatred for anything americana was born. as george washington once wrote, "beware of foreign entanglements". it's coming back to bite us. unfortunately, instead of the american public learning the truth, they've been fed a, very successful, p.r. spin. sad.

[nuQ]

a little too convienent for me big john. an oil man in an oil rich country. why not north korea, a MUCH bigger threat to the us. a threat of a nuclear missle that could reach the west coast????? why is bush sweeping this under the rug. i'm sorry but i guess i was born with a pretty good B.S. detector. i never was one to buy into with whatever politicians try to sell me. even if they label me un-american. it's amazing that if one looks into all the quotes from our politicians from 9/11 to now, you could drive a truck through all their deceptions, half-truths, and out-right lies. not trying to overdramitize, just worried about the wake of their decisions in my lifetime and my neices and nephews!!!

[Onizuka]

Your getting too emotional, who cares that a kurdish child was gassed when hundreds, possibly thousands of iraqi children have been killed by bombs, but that is right because it is in the name of good, right?

since when were thousands of iraqi children killed? Link me. I could be wrong.

[lessthanjakejohn]

I don't know how many but from the amount of JDAM bombs we dropped on Iraq anywhere from 100-3000 sounds possible to me, but I can safely assume 300, can I not?

I was trying to imply skepticism on the "thousand" part.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm > This may be true, may be half true, may be lie. But it shows anywhere from 5000-7000 total dead. Some were probaly children.

[89240sx]

There is no arguing with people who support Bush and this war. They are for the most part flag thumping mindless jingoists who eat up all the media and Bush propaganda.

I've had my arguments with them and it just goes in circles with crap about Osama (nothing to do with Iraq) and blaming me for not eating up their bull**** and being unpatriotic.

I know what this is all about and I know it was a stupid idea and cost the American people too much in money and lives.

[Onizuka]

problem with picking the wrong solution is, americans are getting killed with this wrong solution!!!!!!! what kind of rational is that!! if i picked the wrong solution to a problem and your parents or wife or kids got killed, would you say, "oh well, he picked the wrong solution"!!! i doubt it.

how many americans died when we just sat back and let the middle east play itself out? over 2,000 civilians in one blow (men, women, and children). we already picked the wrong solution by not being involved.

Quote » let's not forget, when it comes to iraq, and osama bin laden (according to our government, the ring leaders in global terrorism), they were both trained and funded by our own cia. seems to be a short leap from "freedom fighters" to "terrorists"!!!! [/quote]our goverment is the ring leader in global terrorism? thats new to me.

Quote » a small step to stopping this global hatred of the united states, might be to stop secretly training dictators and rebel forces, for the benefit of a small group of americans, with all the weapons of terrorists. saddam was given weapons of mass destruction, and chemical weapons, and chemical manufacturing plants in his fight with iran. while osama bin laden was trained by the cia in the afghan fight with the soviets. when the us turned it's back on it's promise to rebuild afghanistan, a very large hatred for anything americana was born.[/quote]saddam given WMD by us? last time i checked he didnt have any but was making a sorry attempt to make them himself. We gave him chemical wepons and chemical manufacturing plants? I dont think so, but i could be wrong, prove it to me.

also, does not rebuilding a country make us bad people? we helped them fight the soviets so now we deserve to be hated? doesnt make much sence, maybe there is more to the conflict than that.

[skydragoness]

Quote »let's not forget, when it comes to iraq, and osama bin laden (according to our government, the ring leaders in global terrorism), they were both trained and funded by our own cia. seems to be a short leap from "freedom fighters" to "terrorists"!!!! [/quote]

the U.S. actually did supply Afghani's with weapons to fight off encroaching Russian forces.

Phax: i like the points that you've made so far. American Foreign Policy has gotten into, (and perhaps) out of these situations. I can't help but notice the parallel between Imperialistic Britain of the 17 to early 18th century. Colonies were set up in many places, with "puppet" rulers, i.e. India. What happened eventually? they revolted against british rule. just like we did. wonder what's to come..

[lessthanjakejohn]

whats with your sig sky? LOL are you tired of all the asses in peoples sigs?

[skydragoness]

do i even have to dignify that with an answer?

[Onizuka]

its not a guy, its a old greek lady

[skydragoness]

it's a guy --believe me. you want links? i know you do.

[skydragoness]

damn. beat me to it.

[Onizuka]

I don't know how many but from the amount of JDAM bombs we dropped on Iraq anywhere from 100-3000 sounds possible to me, but I can safely assume 300, can I not?

I was trying to imply skepticism on the "thousand" part.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm > This may be true, may be half true, may be lie. But it shows anywhere from 5000-7000 total dead. Some were probaly children.

just to quote the site you linked: "Although the majority of deaths are the result of Iraqi on Iraqi violence"

[lessthanjakejohn]

Ok I am owned.

[Onizuka]

are you sure?

*nasty guy picture removed*

i was just kidding, you have to admit it would be way more gross if it were a lady

[Onizuka]

oh god make it stop!!!!

[lessthanjakejohn]

:help

[Onizuka]

no seriously im gonna hurl all over this great thread if those stay up :puke

[skydragoness]

LEAVE THEM THERE!

it's only fair

[lessthanjakejohn]

heh, sorree

[Phax]

... I was talking about Rogue countries in general (to the person who quoted me above) Not just Iraq. I even consider Saudi Arabia Rogue, even though they are supposed to be our allies. Most of the terrorists come from that country. But if we let the terrorists roam those middle easter countries: Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. freely then why isn't it rational to think that they would only become better with what they're doing. We saw what happend on 9/11. Don't do anything about it and we might see something worse then that in our lifetime. ...

You say, "But if we let the terrorists roam... they would only become better at what they're doing."

If we're not doing anything to piss them off, who cares how well they do what they do?

We only care because they're coming over here and striking back at us. They are retaliating. Like Palestinian's retaliate in Israel, and the way Israeli's retaliate back against Palestine. The thing is, I think I know what is going on around the "Holy Land", it's simply a continuation of what was written about in both the Bible and the Koran centuries ago.

I have no freaking idea why the Arabs are retaliating against American's and the rest of the Western world. In fact, not too long after 9/11 when I was confused and lost like a lot of other people, I wrote to CNN via their website. They had gone so far as to ask what sort of coverage American's wanted to see. I told them I wanted to see coverage about the motives of the terrorists, and what led them to kill 3,000+ of my country men in a building that I had visited as a kid.

Have you ever seen any extended discourse on the motives of the people who did what they did? In true terrorlst actions, there are usually demands made, and messages meant to be gotten out. That is the point of terrorism. To draw attention to a cause. Take a look at Northern Ireland for a second. It's all about the cause. Take a look at the Middle East (Israel / Palestine). It's all about the cause of protecting the homeland. What's the cause that Osama is supporting? Destruction of the West? Why? Not enough land in the Middle East? Don't have enough natural resources to sustain themselves in this modern, energy needy society?

It has been asked what we can do. What we can do is move our economy away from large scale energy consumption. We need alternative sources of power (wind, solar, etc). Do you think that the "California energy crisis" would have been such a huge deal if every house in the state had solar panels on their roofs, and 30% of the passes in the high desert had turbines along the ridgelines? I rarely ever drive any extended distance on the 5 freeway without seeing billboards flashing "High Wind Warning. Trucks and trailers use caution next 35 miles!" If everyone was driving a car that gets 50 miles to the gallon, do you think the American Army would have cared so much about sparring the Iraqi Oil Ministry from first, precision guided bombing, second, occupational ground combat, and third, looting? I bring up the Oil Ministry because it's one of the VERY few important buildings that was left intact. In fact, just about EVERY SINGLE OTHER GOVERNMENT building that housed any sort of RECORD or facility for running Iraq was bombed. Radio stations, television stations, government ministries (health, electrical, etc).. they were all bombed. But not the oil ministry, nope.

What happened when the occupation forces let the Iraqi people go back to work? The ones who went to the oil ministry got turned away. You know, the guys who know how to run the pipes, pumps and keep track of the most precious commodity in the country? Nope, they were kept away from work by barbed wire and mine fields.

This is turning into a rant, but I don't care. Anyone who takes the time to read it is at least having their reality checked. Even if it does make you angry, or think that I'm a moron or whatever. That's okay, I'm comfortable enough with what I believe to want to share it with others...

People here in California care about illegal immigration. People from south of the border are coming across in droves, and taking our jobs. Yet it's okay for the president to go invade a country, and adopt how many Iraqi civilians? We're going to spend how many billions of dollars to "fix" Iraqi? Hell, we can't even take care of our own citizens. But we'll sure as hell jump both feet first into the deep-end of rebuilding a country whose population is attacking our troops on average of 15 times a day. That's 105 seperate attacks a week, for those of you who aren't good at quick math. Oh yeah, have you seen the news about the Families of Enlisted Military Members who sent a spokes person to Congress to beg them to bring the troops home. Something about kids dying unnecessary because there's not enough Kevlar to go around... and troops pissed off about having been lied do as to how long their deployments would last.

What are we getting out of Iraq? Prosperity in the Middle East? Gee, I'd just like a few less homeless people asking me for money when I go to 7-11. I guess that homeless people aren't living on top of billions of barrels worth of geological gold, so there's no need to rebuild their country (you know, America... the place where we live?).

Our country, or at least George W. Bush has declared a War on Terrorism. Okay, what needs to be done to the other side to bring them to the bargaining table? Or is this like the War on Drugs, where there is no one blamable party with which who we can settle? Are we going to get a Treaty of Baghdad against the "terrorists" after all is said and done?

I highly doubt it.

[89240sx]

Hey Phax , I agree with almost all of that except the comment about the Immigrants coming across the border and taking our jobs. Why does everyone blame the immigrants?? Is it not the faults of the companies for hiring illegal immigrants?

[Onizuka]

very good points phax

alternative energy sources would be a great way to become less involve in the mid-eastern oil money game.

about people coming across the boarder and taking jobs, its not like they take away the desirable jobs from us, unless you aspire to pick corn when you grow up. We have a very good unemployment rate and those jobs that illigal immegrants take usually help feed families in mexico and whatnot, almost like humanitarian aid. Also, at this point i would rather the US to spend billions puttin a country on its feat than have another group of angry arabs on our hands

[Nathan]

I'm so sick of our political threads (although I just cant stay out of them ) I agree with what J-Spec and Big Jon said earlier. Saddam was a tyrant who killed his own people as well as thousands of others. We tried diplomacy but he couldn't even prove to us that he DIDN'T have weapons of mass destruction. I dont really care if he did or didn't, I'm just glad another murderous dictator is out of power. Now on to Saudi Arabia, then North Korea! If they'd let me kill those ****ers I'd LOVE to join the Marines, damn bad back.

[APEXi240]

There were a few questions/comments addressed that I'd like to comment on...these are general, not specific quotations.

What can be done to combat terrorism? What are the causes?

There isn't much that can be done at all...Vigilant police work all over the globe is the only effective route. Knowing about cells, seizing sensitive documents, and prevention is the only means. The causes range...usually its fundamentalism. That is why there are far more attacks in Middle Eastern countries than in "western" countries. Most terrorlst groups want strict religious governments put in place (Taliban), and are enraged at (somewhat) secular countries such as Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait. Also an infiltration of western culture (that of the infidels) is something that goes against religious teachings. There are many more reasons.

A comment brought up in a bunch of posts is the amount of money we are using...example Bush recently asked for 87 billion (I know he won't end up getting that much). How do you get Iraqis to stop hating us, and Iraqi militant groups to stop attacking us? Instead of spending 87 billion on troops, give each Iraqi citizen 4,000 dollars. See how quickly we can get out of there, and how much they'll love us, and how fast they'll give up Saddam. (This was stated by my UN professor, I thought it was humorous).

Illegal immigrants is another issue. They don't take jobs away from Americans, they take the jobs Americans wouldn't be caught dead doing. Do you want to make dough in a pizzaria and cut up vegetables in 100+ degrees for a 12 hour shift? I don't (but have). I think we should build a big *** wall (think Berlin), or stop complaining about immigrants...we are America, everyone wants in. And as J-Spec pointed out, they are just using the money to pay for the well being of their families, and I simply see nothing wrong with this. America is the richest country in the world...so if some Brazilian guy snags 50k a year to feed, cloth, and house his wife and two kids, so be it.

[APEXi240]

We tried diplomacy but he couldn't even prove to us that he DIDN'T have weapons of mass destruction.

How do you prove you don't have something? If you destroy your weapons what evidence does that leave you saying you don't have them? That makes absolutly no sense. Hans Blix (sp) believed they really didn't have any weapons...hell the Hussein didn't even fire any scuds...

[Onizuka]

cause we wuped his arse too quickly

[yashin]

big john of course the government will never say that they were in any way involved with any coup (and of course they never lie)

so since you can't see the picture, ill draw you an outline and you can connect the dots for me

let's take one of the more recent incidents, the takeover of hugo chavez's democratically elected govt.

first, chavez institutes reforms which would nationalize the oil (common theme) industry and take alot of power away from american companies, next the us strongly critisizes venezual, and more or less threatens them

within weeks, a military general and others attacks chavez's compound, chavez is caputred and is flown to an american compound, by an american helicopter, after chavez regains power, most of the coup leaders get away and just, by pure chance end up, where else, but in the good ol' us of a

c'mon connect the dots, it's obvious

this is true in all cases of coups

check that first comment i can remeber one case in which the us did say they were involved,

chile, pinochet, he takes power from a elected socialist party, us is accused, this causes then us secretary of state kissinger to state, "this decision is to important for the chilean people to make"

and j-spec, the us did give iraq weapons, they did use them in the iran-iraq war, the us did look the other way, the govt. did black out the names of the companies that supplied iraq with these weapons in that report the came out a while ago

once again, history, learn the real history and inform yourselves

[lessthanjakejohn]

Some of you say, "well one more bad guy gone, so I am all for that". Well how about, one thousand more bad buys spawned that we do not know about. At least we could keep an eye on Saddam. Now that he is gone we have watch out for other people who could do use harm in Iraq.