Boy Who Cried Iraq

[fiznat]

I disagree that we're better off for it. What benefit have you seen? Seriously even if you look at it ONLY on an economic level, we got our a$$es handed to us. All that money we're spending right now? Yeah Bush didnt find that between his couch cushions. It's coming out of YOUR AND MY services. It hasnt yet, but I 100% guarantee you there will be massive cuts coming. Bush isnt about to do that right now though - no, it's too close to elections. Dont be fooled though man, you and I will pay big time for this war. ...And I dont think I have seen enough benefit to be worth the cost.

Speaking of elections: everone likes to piss and moan about how GW did this and that- how much of a monster he is, but the way things are looking right now, I think he's going to get re-elected. Not because things are going to suddenly turn good in Iraq or elsewhere, but because too much of America beleives that we're doing the "right thing." Bush is not going to take a stand on the results of the war, he's going to make his case based on the "moral obligations" our country has because of it's power. Obviously Iraq was not some sort of moral conquest, but as long as America beleives that it was, Bush is staying up in the polls. Think about it: if everyone beleives that Bush is a good guy and that he was just trying to help people, how much less does it matter that the war is expensive? Makes so much sence when you see Bush promoting his morality everywhere possible: the FOX "coversation with the president" where he pointed out the places where he prays and showed us his favorite inscription from a painting (pffft), or the UN address where he started condeming countries who support a sex trade. He's MAKING HIS IMAGE RIGHT NOW for the election. Pay attention.

[f1seb]

Well ok. Put yourself in our president's shoes. Your country has just suffered the biggest terrorlst act in history. What do you do? You sit there and do nothing? While countries like Iraq and Iran can easily smuggle weapons and train more terrorists where those countries leaders won't think twice about sending them into the US boarders. If you say that this is just about money and oil, you need to explain yourself more, other then just "We go in kill a bunch of people and take over their oil supply" That doesn't make much sense cause we have a national deficit that will reach around 500 billion dollars in the next few months. But it's going to keep growing cause of the war. Now Im not an economist but I doubt that just barells of oil will wipe that one off all by itself. Now that this has happened this is just 1 country less to worry about, unless this turns out into another Saudi Arabia while they are all smiles in your face but as soon as you turn around they'd knife you. The Clinton administration was highly reluctant to fight terrorism, sure the economy is good but go ahead and tell those familys of the 3k people that died on 9/11 that money is more important then their loved ones lives. When the USS Cole was bombed nothing was done but Clinton took lot of heat for it. Maybe he didn't care much cause it was at the end of his term, but it took the Bush administration to kill the ones responsible for it, not too long ago. How long will this go on for nobody knows but one thing is for sure it is not going to stop and it just wont go away, look at the Palestine/Israel conflict. They've been at it so long people don't even care anymore.

[f1seb]

One more thing, anybody can just criticize another person. But unless you also have a way to resolve all this, and that guy doesn't so I say sit down and shut up.

[Jesda]

Aztek... Get it right. I didnt say you were "bull****" I said you gave us "bull****." There's a very clear difference between that and you saying I suffer from oral diarrhea. One is a comment on what you said, one is a comment on the person. I stopped reading your post at that point.

You opened the door to more knee-jerk vernacular.

-Jesda

[Jesda]

fiznat:

Regardless of whether we are better off for taking out Saddam (a mission over 10 years late), Bush is not particularly strong in recent polls, mostly because of the way people feel the mission in Iraq has turned out.

At the same time, the Democrats aren't offering any strong candidates, thus making it possible for Bush to win or lose. Anything can happen. Clark, Bush, Dean, or Kerry could be our next president. In 1983, Reagan polled under 40%, then came around to win with a devastating landslide in 1984. Mondale was also an awful candidate.

Remember, -anything- can happen. Dont put your money on Bush, or any of the other candidates just yet.

Dean suffers from a flip-flop condition where he seems to stand everywhere on all of the issues.Clark is a bitter former Republican who joined the Democrats to get even with the Bush administration because he was not invited to join in the war in Iraq. Clark himself even said previously that we -need- Bush and his team in office. Furthermore, Kerry's a bit pretentious and out of touch with your average voter. He will be strong in the northeast and parts of the west coast, and his influence will end there. Those $75 hair cuts arent working in his favor, apparently.

Anything can happen in 2004. Both of the major parties have weak candidates right now.

-Jesda

[Eswift]

Well ok. Put yourself in our president's shoes. Your country has just suffered the biggest terrorlst act in history. What do you do? You sit there and do nothing?

i think i would tend to direct my retaliation towards those who actually harmed us...

oops most of them are already dead.

oops cant find osama, lets just attack someone else who is sortof into terrorism, well not really, bud hes a "bad guy"..the public will believe, as long as they stick to US TV news reports and my BS.

oops i just spent all my tax dollars for the next 3 years on this BS, oh well, the CEOs and sharholders of my buddie's companies will get it back during the reconstruction contracts that we gave ourselves.

and as for everyone else...trickle down! right guys?

i wouldnt sit there and do nothing...

but i would think a whole lot more about what is right, both for america and the world as a whole.

i would eliminate the "for me" mentality.

of course, that is all that the more basic lifeforms can be concerned about....

[Eswift]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fiznat

fiznat, you are completely correct, and unfortunatley, most of this country will not pull the wool from their eyes in time.

i wonder if the history textbooks in a few decades will document the gullibility of the american public, entranced by the media as we have been recently.

Of course, most textbooks fail to mention most of our past nasties, or at least put a one-sided positive spin on them.

I just dont see how any of this has been a positive. You really have to stretch reality to see this as the correct course of action.

the presidency isnt made of lighting fast decisions. the best ones first though about stuff, and then wrote it down, thought about it again, before invading other countries.

does dubya even have a pen?

[Onizuka]

i think georgy is a jackass, but a jackass with balls and a big stick.

[APEXi240]

Oh soooo many things to say.... but so little concern about anti-Bush sentiment. Guess what... no matter how much you ***** and moan about it... he got the job done and we're better off for it.

What job? Elimating terrorists? They did such a great job that the Marriot in Jakarta got bombed, the UN building in Iraq got bombed twice, we have yet to find Osama (who just released two tapes in the past couple of days), we have yet to find these illusive WMDs. Which job? The one where we piss off all the Afghanis cause it took about two years to come up with a constitution we can all wipe our butts with?

How are we better off? Because we spent and are going to spend billions? Are we better off because we got a bunch of our guys killed, and killed hundreds of Iraqi civilians? Are we better off because Hussein can't lob imaginary bombs as far as Israel?

[quote=" f1seb Your country has just suffered the biggest terrorlst act in history. What do you do? You sit there and do nothing? While countries like Iraq and Iran can easily smuggle weapons and train more terrorists where those countries leaders won't think twice about sending them into the US boarders.[/quote]

What link has been proven that Iraq funded or trained terrorists? The terrorlst camp(s) in Iraq were in Kurdish areas...places Hussein has had no control over in the last 12 years. And if Iran is such a huge terrorlst nation how come the US isn't condemning them for having terrorlst pour over their borders like they are in Syria? Because it's not happening...of course some will get through, but you better believe that its 10x as hard for terrorists to get through places like Iran and Saudi Arabia than through countries like Syria. Again you'd be suprised how anti-terrorism places like Iran are. They have an Islamic Republic (oxymoron) and do not condone terrorlst activities, much like Iraq...but that is not what the Bush administration would want you to believe.

This is definitly NOT the reason Bush went to war, but a foreign war always takes precedence of domestic issues. This helps in an election. Bush I do believe will be re-elected. Democrats simply do not have a solid candidate.

[APEXi240]

i think georgy is a jackass, but a jackass with balls and a big stick.

He's also a lot smarter than he makes himself out to be.

[Onizuka]

jackass as in the whole making up WMD thing, definatly not stupid.

[Eswift]

oh he's smart.

one cunning, lying m@th3rF@cker.

[Onizuka]

and we know all politicians are completely truthful.

[Phax]

yeah good read. I always get suspicious with those propaganda type essays though. I donno, I mean I definetly agree with him, but I cant help from feeling that I'm being minipulated when he just HAS to include those little catch phrases and seemingly one sided information...

You are wise to have your suspicions raised. Any persuasive speaker is going to have a bent to what they speak about. The more persuasive they are, the more likely you will begin to notice yourself becoming persuaded. On a subject such as the one in question here, where much information has been spread across huge areas of our conscious life, suspicion will naturally be aroused when contradictory information is being presented.

I'd go so far as to say you are being manipulated. Yet, no more manipulated than you've been by the administration that got us into the Iraqi war in the first place, or by the power structure that has been in place for at least the last century, if not longer.

The essay in question is very much linked to a link to a website that I put up about six months ago. The title of my post was, "What's really going on." I pretty much got lambasted and called a leftist, brain washed, idiot who had swallowed liberal propaganda hook, line and sinker. Maybe once you've finished reading http://www.theboywhocriediraq.com, you might consider checking out http://www.hereinreality.com. Caution though, it's even more obviously slanted towards opening your mind to alternatives than the first essay was.

The guy touches upon some great points, and I appreciate the way that he often times was able to draw historical parallels. I especially like how he used quotes from people like Goering and Hilter, to stood them directly besides quotes from people like Bush. History does repeat itself. Go back and ask any history teacher that you've ever had. For those of you still in school, ask your own history teachers what they think about "History repeating itself."

On the subject of history, I've spoken to my grand father. He flew medium altitude (B-26) bombers over Germany in WW2. He got some medals for going through what he went through. Despite having fought the "Greatest menance of the 20th century", he's frightened by the legislation and "fascist" (his words) policies that have already been implimented in this country.

Some of you might remember from the essay that the author is considered a terrorlst, according to the legislation (Patriot Act 1 & 2) and other policies passed by the Bush administration. It is no longer legal to speak out against the government, in any way. And forget about organizing and getting together with people who share similar views!! That's forming an anti-governmental, terrorlst organization right there. Heaven forbid you should do it in your house, on your own property. Don't you know the FBI has access to battering rams and enough hardware to effectively disperse any gathering?

Don't get me wrong, it's not all bad. We're still in America. Enough of the citizens still believe in the Constitution, even if they don't realize that we have very few constitutional rights left.

Be suspicious. Please do. Just be smart enough to be suspicious of both sides, or all three sides... or however many sides your mind is capable of comprehending, and considering in tandem, parallel, or any of the dozens of other ways you are able to compare and constrast information.

[rydwhite]

Well, this may be the biggest bush bashing I have ever heard. While some points were valid, others were completely off. JSpec pointed that out rather well earlier.

For a good argument there should not be just total accusations with little support. There needs to be a balanced attack of what is going on. In all actuallity it is all just talk. No-one actually knows what is going on. It is all happening behind closed doors. I agree that Bush does have some very large gaps in his foreign policy, however, I feel that this has gone a bit overboard.

I have problems with articles which do not cover both sides of the story. This obviously does not cover each equally. Present me with an argument from each and let me decide which argument is more valid. This did not happen. Therefore, it is only propoganda.

[Phax]

I just read the rest of the replies to this post. I write this reply to those who said that Bush got the job done. To those who ask, "What should he have done to deal with terrorists?"

Guys, take a step back. Now take a breath. Do you remember what you stepped back from? Okay, take another mental step back from it. What is it? 9/11 Two planes hit two buildings. Remember that? Okay, now look outward from that to the rest of the world. It's over across the Atlantic. Or, there's some more world across the Pacific.

Now, you've got that world in sight? Ever wonder how that world found out about us? Ever wonder, what it is that people like you and I, the American people did, to piss off those people over there? Piss off to the point where they'll go out of their way, and give up their lives, to come kill us? Have you ever wondered, what happened to draw 20+ Arabic individuals to the "Land of the Free", and compel them to run airliners into two buildings chock full of financial data?

AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY

What we're going through is a backlash to our foreign policy for the last century. Go back and re-read that essay. Take a look at the history of wars going back to the late 19th, early 20th century, and continuing to the present. (1890+ - 2000+).

People, we have been kicking *** all over the globe for more than a century!! It's only a matter of time before enough people get together and say, "Hey, you know what? F-UCK you America! Get the F-UCK out of our country. Stay the F-UCK out of our politics, and out of our lives!"

[s86d]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cold_ZeroWe really need to ask ourselves how has the past 60 years of American foreign policy helped out the world? Sure we beat the Communists and Facists. I bet we tortured, killed and oppressed just as many people as they did.

Yeah but we did it with a mickey mouse coated smile:D

[Phax]

We really need to ask ourselves how has the past 60 years of American foreign policy helped out the world? Sure we beat the Communists and Facists. I bet we tortured, killed and oppressed just as many people as they did.

Yeah but we did it with a mickey mouse coated smile:D

Our foreign policy hasn't. Sooner or later, we're gonna get hit with the same sort of trade sanctions and embargo's that we've lobbied to have enforced on countries like Iraq. The corporations could care less though, they've already moved enough of their manufacturing / production overseas.

[Onizuka]

I still have faith that this country can do good in overseas conflicts. Call me a sheep if you want, i belive what i see, and i see many countries that are better off as a result of US intervention. Even countries where we decimated entire cities have grew into states of economic prosperity and political freedom. There are many black spots in our history im not proud of, but to back out of what i concider helping other countries would be a mistake. With the conflict in iraq, i look at the people, not the money, not the ensuing political battle, and definatly not "what the world thinks". There are two kinds of people in iraq: ones happy about saddam being ousted, and ones not happy about it. Happy iraqies might be catagorized as those tortured by saddams secret police, the families of slaugtered innocent people, groups of people who have been subjected to ethnic cleansing, Iraqies forced into saddams military, and iraqi proponents of politcal and religious freedom. Now to catagorize the people unhappy about the regeim change: Relatives of saddams inbread extended family, those who used to be incharge, people that put their hate (legitimate and unlegitimate) for america infront of the fact that we are probably about to spend billions of dollars to rebuild their country (just like we did with japan back in the 40's and 50's), and people who now face imprisonment or death for past crimes on their own people.

I did not agree with america going over to iraq alone against the word of the UN, in this day and age international agreement is becoming more and more important. America started it, and america will end it at the cost of many good men. Its hard to determine if one preventable lost live is worth the savior of 10 people facing unpreventable death; death by a facist dictatorship that will no longer exsist in the future.

[nuQ]

i'll try to keep this short. have we all forgotten about the believed culprit behind 9/11, the mastermind behind terrorism, ol' osama. bush doesn't talk too much about him anymore. WHY??? do any of us care anymore???? bush has NEVER tied saddam with 9/11. wasn't this the reason for the war on terror, or our invasion of other countries????? for all of us who don't see a bush/oil connection, do you realize that most of the families of the 9/11 victoms (3600 plaintiffs, i believe) are part of a lawsuit, led by john? motley, the lawyer that took on the tobacco companies and won. the lawsuit seeks to follow the money trail behind the terrorists and saudi arabia, where most were from. most of the documented funding is from the royal family and many of their friends and business associates, including the diplomat and his wife that are very good friends with the bush family. the person trying hardest to get this case thrown out, under the guise of national security, george bush, jr!!!! does this raise any eyebrows????????? WHY????? check this out for yourself. why are we not attacking a country with documented ties with the terrorlst minds behind 9/11??????? it's either money, oil, or the friendship of george bush (and i'm not betting on the third). we all must dive a little deeper. don't believe me, check it out for yourself! this whole administration is neck deep in the oil industry. conflict of interest. if i was a building contractor, and "mistakenly" burned down your house, would you trust me, or hire me to re-build it??????

[yashin]

AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY

What we're going through is a backlash to our foreign policy for the last century. Go back and re-read that essay. Take a look at the history of wars going back to the late 19th, early 20th century, and continuing to the present. (1890+ - 2000+).

People, we have been kicking *** all over the globe for more than a century!! It's only a matter of time before enough people get together and say, "Hey, you know what? F-UCK you America! Get the F-UCK out of our country. Stay the F-UCK out of our politics, and out of our lives!"

this is 100% correct

the problem is that the govt. and media don't like to show this, they don't want people to know what we have done to piss these people off so badly

i don't like to say this but a large part of the blame for terrorlst attacks lies with the american public, i'm not saying what the terroists did was right,

for the past 60-70 the american public has choosen to to bury it's head in the sand and to look the other way when the govt. does something bad to a foreign country

there is no huge political outcry when a dictatorship is installed by the us govt. in some countrie overseas, hell most americans are so uninformed they probably don't know 1/10th of the evil things there country has done, so what happens, each succesive us administraton goe ahead and supports tyrants, and dictators, and murderers

so buy looking the other way, they become responsible for the actions of their govt., because let's not forget the govt. is merely a representative of the people

so what's to be done, to stop future attacks? bomb more people? install more despots?? no, it's up to the american people to inform themselves and to demand changes from their leaders, hell there was an huge inquiry into whether or not clinton got his johnson polished, but no inquiry into an foreign policy actions

if you don't giv people a reason to hate you, they won't want to kill you

[nuQ]

yashin,,,c'mon, who are you kidding??? inform ourselves on history, foreign policy, who actually runs the government????? now talk about the injury report for next sundays games, now you've got our attention. even with all the arguing, and fingerpointing, this post shows a glimmer of hope for the true spirit of America. the ONLY hope for real change with our government is knowledge and action from it's citzens. the powers that be know that we are more concerned about sports stats than the stats of our foreign entanglements. "those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it". we are living that quote right now.

[big jon's 240]

i don't like to say this but a large part of the blame for terrorlst attacks lies with the american public, i'm not saying what the terroists did was right

So then by your logic, dont we have the right to nuke Saudi Arabia, Syria, and a host of other countries?People who come up with these so called "facts", are usually misinformed, or spin them for their own liberal purposes. I hear all this talk about CIA supported coup this, CIA placed dictator that. Do you think its that simple? If the CIA wanted to put someone in power, neither you nor some second rate conspiracy theorist would ever know about it, trust me.Bush is not a bad guy with some secret agenda. He didnt invade Iraq for oil, politics, or any other ulterior motive. I am very happy that he is in office, otherwise we may still be waiting for Gore to sue Al Qaeda.

[Onizuka]

Big jon, you know the CIA can make anything happen, they have magic shoes that let them overthrow entire governments without people even knowing about it.

[big jon's 240]

All you have to do is tap the heels three times. And if that doesnt work, you ask the crystal ball for the next best course of action.

[lessthanjakejohn]

thanks for the intelligence :rolleyes

[nuQ]

please, please big john, at least, do your history on guatemala and the united fruit company. after that, see if you agree with your last post!!!!! ps- i dare you!!LOL pps- by "your" logic, did we have the right to invade iraq?? if we have more proof of a 9/11 involvement with saudi arabia, why are we not there????!!!!

[Onizuka]

9/11 involvement with saudi arabia, why are we not there????!!!!

we sure as hell should have been there before iraq, thats for sure. (although im not sure saudi arabia has the violent history that iraq has had)

[f1seb]

You guys who keep trying to say that this Iraq war was mainly cause of trying to tie up Bin Laden and money for oil deal. But think about it, Saddam was an aggressive tyrant started 2 wars not just one, and he never fully paid for them until now, but lets move past that point. I was talking about Rogue countries in general (to the person who quoted me above) Not just Iraq. I even consider Saudi Arabia Rogue, even though they are supposed to be our allies. Most of the terrorists come from that country. But if we let the terrorists roam those middle easter countries: Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc. freely then why isn't it rational to think that they would only become better with what they're doing. We saw what happend on 9/11. Don't do anything about it and we might see something worse then that in our lifetime. Like I said, it's easy to criticize, but do any of you have a solution to that problem? That's what I want to hear, your solutions. I'm not saying that Bush chose the right one but at least he picked one and is sticking to it, and doing something is better then just sitting around and playing with your thumbs.

[big jon's 240]

pps- by "your" logic, did we have the right to invade iraq??

Yes, do you have any idea how many times they tried to shoot down our planes in the ten years after the first war? While they were enforcing a legal UN mandate, and something which Iraq originally agreed to.Have you ever seen what a chemical weapon will do to a 5 year old kurdish child? Thats reason enough for me.