Boy Who Cried Iraq

[MaineExport]

I use my vote every year...

Hans Blix said 'has or had'? What was the time table on had, because that will make all the difference. I never came across any articles at the time stating that he knows the weapons are there, if you have something to this effect I would like to read it (honestly, not being sarcastic).

This was weeks after the "end" of the war. It was in a TV interview in English (well.. the best English Hans is capable of) by a US news station. I am trying to remember the source so I can look it up.

Summarizing to the best of my recollection, he said that it was never a question of Iraq having the weapons... we all knew they have or had the weapons, it was a question of their level of compliance with UN guidelines and the extent to which they had been misleading the UN.

I will keep looking for the quote... but like I said it was from a TV interview so I am looking for a transcript.

[MaineExport]

I'm still looking for the actual article... but here is an excerpt from another reporter discussing the interview and reports that I refer to:

The Iraqi government in the 1990s admitted to U.N. weapons inspectors that it had produced 8,500 liters of anthrax, as well as a few tons of the nerve agent VX. Where are they? U.N. weapons inspectors have been trying to answer that question for a decade. Because Hussein's regime refused to answer, the logical presumption was that they had to be somewhere still in Iraq.

That, at least, has been the presumption of Hans Blix. Go back and take a look at the report Blix delivered to the U.N. Security Council on Jan. 27. On the question of Iraq's stocks of anthrax, Blix reported there existed "no convincing evidence" they had ever been destroyed. On the contrary, he said, there was "strong evidence" that Iraq had produced even more anthrax than it had declared "and that at least some of this was retained." Blix also reported that Iraq possessed 650 kilograms of "bacterial growth media," enough "to produce . . . 5,000 litres of concentrated anthrax."

On the question of VX, Blix reported that his inspection team had "information that conflicts" with Iraqi accounts. The Iraqi government claimed that it had produced VX only as part of a pilot program but that the quality was poor and therefore the agent was never "weaponized." But according to Blix, the inspection team discovered that the Iraqi government had lied. The Iraqi government's own documents showed that the quality and purity of the VX were better than declared and, according to the inspection team, there were "indications that the agent" had indeed been "weaponized."

[MaineExport]

Well, I ran across a transcript of Hans Blix's report to the UN. It's not what I'm looking for, but even in this widely publicized report he makes mention of MANY instances where Iraq is NOT in compliance with UN mandates. He also describes quite clearly that they FOUND weapons that Iraq had not disclosed on several occasions.

Here's the link if you'd like to do some reading. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement for either side, but seeing as how it's from the mouth of the head inspector himself... it's pretty telling.

[Onizuka]

Now your getting silly....

cmon, bush is out to take over the world, massacre an entire race, and employs secret police to brutally enforce his message among his own people. He is EXACTLY like hitler. I mean the fact the Saddam Hussain publicly admitted to idolizing Stalin, a man that killed 25 million of his own people, that doesnt mean anything. Saddam, wow, he provided some utilities to people in cities, that makes him like fricken Gandhi or something, you just have to forget about all the people he murdered.

Are you sure all iraqis are saying: "oh yeah at least i had a constant supply of electricity under the rule of saddam, well worth the price of the ethnic slaughter of the kurds and repression by death and torture of all the people that disagreed with him."

[I30T]

haha.

Well, a point here: The jews were being discriminated against because they were used as a scapegoat for the economic problems of Germany. No one is getting discriminated or killed due to religion in Iraq.

and let me say this. I am tired as hell of the stereotyping and discrimination against Muslims. First of all, whereas Christianity has denominations, there are Islamic sects, which are conflicting and often fight each other.

The misconstruing of "jihad" after 9/11 was another bad thing. People assumed that it says in the Koran (its spelled many ways, i'll go with the Western one) that as a muslim, if follow anyone who declares jihad against anything, and you die fighting in this war, then you are sent to paradise. Jihad is described in the book as mohammad leads his people against the oppressors. Now, in bin laden's case, for some reason he says he is oppressed by the US. According to the rules of the religion, if you died in this "jihad" fighting someone that you have not been oppressed by, you don't get the free trip to heaven.

Also, people assume that Islam is radically different from Christianity and Judaism. Unfortunately, most people don't realize that the Koran contains the entire old and new testaments.

Back to the unfair treatment in the media. They tie in people's religions with everything. Remember right after the war started and a soldier threw a grenade into his own camp and killed 2 guys, injured 6 or 7? He did it because he wanted to go home and was going crazy. Yet, when they reported this, it was "A muslim soldier attacked his own troops today..." had it been a christian soldier, you would never have heard what religion he is.

People lump the scumbags in Al-Qaeda and other crazy assclowns in with the rest of the Islamic people. They don't realize this, but it's exactly the same as assuming all christians follow the beliefs of the KKK.

And in my opinion, Bush did a decent job. He showed that he can lay down the law. I believe that his "Axis of Evil" is pretty lame, but he led the war effort well.

And in case any of you want to know why the middle east is like it is today, i have two words for you.

Great Britain.

[Onizuka]

i think ALOT of western nations are the cause of the mess in the middle east.

[I30T]

go back to the whole creation of Israel thing. OK, france was in on it too, but that is the reason that theres such a huge conflict.

[Nathan]

Woohoo, another thing to blame France for!

[Onizuka]

thats a big part of it, but so are all the proxy wars america and russia waged there too. Lets not forget Great Britains imperial ventures into the middle east. Im sure there is alot more too that i dont know about.

[big jon's 240]

go back to the whole creation of Israel thing. OK, france was in on it too, but that is the reason that theres such a huge conflict.

True. But you would think by now those yahoo's would figure out that the other side is not going anywhere, and would learn to get along.I also agree that Muslims as a whole are not bad people, i know a couple and they think Osama and his group of dingleberries are looney just like the rest of us do. I think the biggest problem is that the middle east is full of under educated people who will believe it when sheik so-and-so sayd america is the great devil, and he should take this bomb on the bus full of Israeli kids. Every religion has its groups of crazies who kill in the name of their god, even christianity.

[APEXi240]

i think ALOT of western nations are the cause of the mess in the middle east.

Western Europe cause most of the problems all over the world...it was called colonialism.

Maine, that was a good report, I remember reading it when it first came out. I'd say if proves your point well...I do also believe that it was testimony to the need for more inspections (sorry to sound so French).

Big Jon, you gotta realize though, they understand they aren't getting anywhere, but there are simply some Palestinian groups that don't want peace...same goes for any fanatical group. That Israel/Palestine situation is horrible, so many wrongdoings on each side...it's a mess that will not get sorted out for a long long time.

I agree with you about the Muslim comment wholeheartedly. You'd be suprised how many Middle Easterners want to have normal, westernized lives. There are more people like that there, than there are fanatics who "hate" America.

[NY94J30]

haha.

and let me say this. I am tired as hell of the stereotyping and discrimination against Muslims. First of all, whereas Christianity has denominations, there are Islamic sects, which are conflicting and often fight each other.

The misconstruing of "jihad" after 9/11 was another bad thing. People assumed that it says in the Koran (its spelled many ways, i'll go with the Western one) that as a muslim, if follow anyone who declares jihad against anything, and you die fighting in this war, then you are sent to paradise. Jihad is described in the book as mohammad leads his people against the oppressors. Now, in bin laden's case, for some reason he says he is oppressed by the US. According to the rules of the religion, if you died in this "jihad" fighting someone that you have not been oppressed by, you don't get the free trip to heaven.

Also, people assume that Islam is radically different from Christianity and Judaism. Unfortunately, most people don't realize that the Koran contains the entire old and new testaments.

Back to the unfair treatment in the media. They tie in people's religions with everything. Remember right after the war started and a soldier threw a grenade into his own camp and killed 2 guys, injured 6 or 7? He did it because he wanted to go home and was going crazy. Yet, when they reported this, it was "A muslim soldier attacked his own troops today..." had it been a christian soldier, you would never have heard what religion he is.

I30T,

I agree with your sentiment, but you have made some errors in your post. First, and most glaringly, the Testaments do not appear in their entirety in the Quran - though they do in many senses form the bases of the Quran. Jihad literally translates to struggle - any personal struggle to acheive, and though it does in some verses appear mostly as you described it it is more traditionally interpreted as a struggle with oneself for purity. Also, Muhammad's struggles were not part of the Quran per se, but were part of the Hadith (a collection of Muhammad's actions and sayings - like the Gospels)

go back to the whole creation of Israel thing. OK, france was in on it too, but that is the reason that theres such a huge conflict.

And, again not to pick on you, but what did France have to do with the creation of Israel? If you mean that their extreme anit-semitism in lead to the exodus of French Jews who ended up in Ottoman or British Palestine, or that they made Israel a nuclear power that is the only extent that I am aware of. And again I agree with your sentiment as I understand it. I just don't want to see the perpetuation of bad information when its important info

[I30T]

France added to the problem when they and great britain assisted Israel and led them to try to take over the Suez canal in egypt, which caused huge conflict.

Great Britain also helped draw the borders, even after they'd promised Palestine that they would not take their land.

[NY94J30]

Yes, the French did try to internationalize the Suez in '56, before the US slapped them down, but that was not the cause of the Suez War in large sense. It was just an opportune moment for the French after the Israeli's attacked Egypt.

And ultimately it was not Britain that drew the Israeli borders, it was the UN (UNSCR 181).

[APEXi240]

You guys should watch Bowling for Columbine, awesome movie, it talks about lots of stuff wrong with our country, it is also somewhat anti-Bush.

"If you're going to dedicate your career to ranting about the excesses of American capitalism, you probably shouldn't weigh 450 pounds." - GREG GIRALDO on Michael Moore

[VimyJ]

Where's Vimyj?

Don't get me started.

[Jesda]

I agree with you about the Muslim comment wholeheartedly. You'd be suprised how many Middle Easterners want to have normal, westernized lives. There are more people like that there, than there are fanatics who "hate" America.

A week ago at the gas station I saw this lady in full Islamic apparel (head covered, robe, etc) pull up in a new Cadillac Escalade, driving by herself. We exchanged grins, and I thought it was the coolest thing I've ever seen.

THATS what America is about!!!! :patriot

-Jesda

[89240sx]

"If you're going to dedicate your career to ranting about the excesses of American capitalism, you probably shouldn't weigh 450 pounds." - GREG GIRALDO on Michael Moore

That was a cheap shot and shows quite a bit of ignorance and immaturity. It's easy to poke fun at weight and if that is all you have against the man then you really do not have much.

[APEXi240]

THE GUY IS A COMEDIAN...it's his job to poke fun at people. Geez lighten up a bit. It does make sense however. I wouldn't actually call him ignorant either, seeing as he graduated from both Columbia and Harvard.

*edit* Just wanted to throw this quote in, thought it was funny and kinda applys to the thread.

"The whole world is not against us. Spain sent us a pinata."-GREG GIRALDO on the world's opposition to the war in Iraq

[89240sx]

I wasnt talking about him ... I was talking about you

[MaineExport]

I happen to think the Greg Giraldo quote is dead-on! (both quotes for that matter)

And he's not picking on the man because of his weight. He is saying that if you are going to be ranting about the evils of American excesses... perhaps your argument would be more well recieved if you were not a gluttonous swine yourself.

In the words of one of our favorite NICO member of all times:

"SEE ALSO: Pot, kettle, black"

[VimyJ]

Maine, you've done it again. "Opinions as facts", eh? How about opinions based upon fact?

A few random facts:

- Iraqi oil reserves are estimated as being 300 billion barrels of the most profitable oil on earth.

- Iraq was in no way a threat to US security. No WMD and no evidence of links to anti US terror groups. The doctrine of "preemptive self defence" was a lie.

- Iraq was a secular state. SH was killing fundamentalist Muslims bent upon establishing an Islamic theocracy, a la Iran, by the truck load.

- Islam is fundamentally anti anything not Muslim.

- The majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite Muslims. Same as Iran. One man one vote means Islamic theocracy.

- bush has divided the West in the face of one of its greatest rivals, Islam. (China next)

- The US has no right to unilaterally enforce UN resolutions.

- bush destroyed our huge pool of goodwill following 9-11. Remember, Afghanistan is a UN sanctioned action and is truly a global campaign.

- Iraq was completely contained. Daily overflights, crippling sanctions and, most recently, extremely intrusive WMD inspections.

- No US oil companies have invested in Iraq. Far too risky with a hostile Islamic theocracy emerging practically a foregone conclusion.

- bush is out of his intellectual depth dealing with the likes of Rummy and Cheeney. bush is not in control and is, objectively speaking, the stupidest member of the federal cabinet.

- Iraq had no motive for sparking a war with a superpower. It never attacked the US and never supported fundamentalist Muslim terror groups intent upon destroying secular regimes.

- SH was telling the truth regarding disarmament and bush lied about WMD. Ironic, eh?

Sure there is a decent amount of subterfuge surrounding Iraq's WMD program but the fact remains that Iraq was not the imminent threat to US security bush made it out to be. It was that threat that bush attempted to sell a shell shocked US public not mass graves which are not a threat to US security.

Using the rationale of preemptive self defence, one could suppose that bin Laden thinks he was justified in his attacks on 9-11. He precieved the notion that the West was attempting to destroy Islam. He was being preemptive. And so it goes.

[NY94J30]

Vimy,

I very much agree with much of what you said, however, I'll assume you meant your last point rhetorically, as the doctrine of preemption in international law applies only to state actors

[Jesda]

People like to throw out "Bush is stupid."

Michael Moore is fat.Hillary Clinton is an ice queen.Al Gore is a tree.Rush (was) fat.Bill OReilly is a blowhard.

Now that we have all the BS out of the way, lets move on...

[Jesda]

"bush is out of his intellectual depth dealing with the likes of Rummy and Cheeney. bush is not in control and is, objectively speaking, the stupidest member of the federal cabinet."

Vimy you declare this as fact but offer no proof! Until you conduct a standard IQ test on each member of the administration, you have no proof. All you have is anecdotes, satire, and glaring personal bias.

I hate when people state their opinions as fact. Its so arrogant. Its like saying "I know for an objective FACT that chrome is better looking than silver!" -- Yeah, if its a fact then whip out the data and prove it.

-Jesda

[VimyJ]

Perhaps I should have said the president shouldn't be the stupidest member of the federal cabinet.

"They treat Social Security like it's some kind of government program." bush.

Either this boob gets confused easily or he is stupid. Take your pick since they mean exactly the same thing.

Any bias I have towards the president is based upon his foolish actions and statements.

"Bring 'em on."

"He tried to kill my dad."

[Aztek72]

A quick google search with the specified terms "Bush" and "I.Q" results in tons (five on the first page, to be exact) that all indicate his I.Q. is a belove average of 91. If that's true, our President is definitely not Mensa material.

BUT I'll take these reports with a barrel of salt. I strongly doubt someone with such a low I.Q. scored 1206 on his SAT's much less get into Yale. Didn't really excel there (mediocre student, average (grades- mostly 70's and a few 80's from his Yale transcript) but this is one of the premier schools in the nation and those grades, though not spectacular, aren't too shabby.

The one thing about him that irritates me is his penchant for making up words like "subliminable."

[Nathan]

VimyJ, have you never been in a stressful situation and misspoken before? It's possible for someone to be extremely intelligent and still make simple mistakes, especially when faced with a stressful situation they are not comfortable with. I don't think Bush is a wonderful public speaker and it probably is not something he is very comfortable with. I'll address some of your other comments later but that was the easy one since your still spouting out opinion as truth.

[Aztek72]

He is saying that if you are going to be ranting about the evils of American excesses... perhaps your argument would be more well recieved if you were not a gluttonous swine yourself.

:In best Martin Lawrence impression:

Ouch man...dat's cold, man...dat's cold...

[APEXi240]

I wasnt talking about him ... I was talking about you

Well I say boo-f'ing hoo, I'm so sick of everyone wanting everyone else to be so goddamn politically correct. It's not like the guy is retarted, he is fat, anyone with any self discpline and motivation, or money can take of a weight problem. I'm so sick of everyone being so damn PC, its disgusting. The quote proves a very valid point and if you don't see that, then so be it. There are other reasons to dislike the man...such as being an outright liar, poor public speaker, poor taste, ect.

If I offended you...I'm really not all that sorry.

Bush isn't as dumb as everyone makes him out to be, you can't make it to a presidency being completely incompetent, with that said, he did call the war in Afghanistan, and Iraq a crusade. Not the smartest thing you want to call a war against Muslim extremists.