Boy Who Cried Iraq
-
Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
i dont give a s*** what you or bush says, i formed my own opinion about saddam hussein A LONG time ago. In fact, i was supprised that bush was the person to do something about it. Im glad he did, im estatic at the fact that saddam is no longer in power and i have our president and congress to thank for it, even if i dont like him/them.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:i dont give a s*** what you or bush says, i formed my own opinion about saddam hussein A LONG time ago. In fact, i was supprised that bush was the person to do something about it. Im glad he did, im estatic at the fact that saddam is no longer in power and i have our president and congress to thank for it, even if i dont like him/them.
you dont like him but thank him but you dont care what he says but you are glad .... blah blah ...etc etc etc...
sounds like you do not know where you stand.
J-spec, you're funny. Congress voted to go allow bush to invade Iraq based on the fear of the mushroom clouds the president said where on the horizon. SH had been killing radical Muslim factions for decades and there wasn't a peep from the "we aren't the world's policeman" crowd.
Islam is a minor yet dangerous threat to the west. Iraq was not a theocracy. bush has guaranteed an Islamic theocracy in Iraq. How do you like them apples?
There is evil in the world, as bush so often quips, and you better get used to it. bin Laden thinks the West is evil. There are westerners who think the east is evil. There are neo-cons who think liberals are evil. There are KKKers who think Jews are evil. There are protestants who think Catholics are evil. And on and on and on.
We had SH by the short and curlies. No threat and forcing him to play ball. We had the moral and ethical high ground. No more. We are just like them. You reap what you sow. Get ready. bush reduced us them. Hope you like it.
Islam is a minor yet dangerous threat to the west. Iraq was not a theocracy. bush has guaranteed an Islamic theocracy in Iraq. How do you like them apples?
There is evil in the world, as bush so often quips, and you better get used to it. bin Laden thinks the West is evil. There are westerners who think the east is evil. There are neo-cons who think liberals are evil. There are KKKers who think Jews are evil. There are protestants who think Catholics are evil. And on and on and on.
We had SH by the short and curlies. No threat and forcing him to play ball. We had the moral and ethical high ground. No more. We are just like them. You reap what you sow. Get ready. bush reduced us them. Hope you like it.
Nathan wrote:Right, because your in Congress and know what makes them tick...and right, we had SH playing ball, uh huh...he was REALLY honest. I hope Bush leads our army to a few more countries before you stupid liberals throw out the best president we've had in a long time. I fear it wont happen though
Ya and you know cause you are in Congress?? and who came out as the liar?? i believe it was Bush!!! ding ding ding we have a winner!!!
oh and best president?? LOLOL hahahaha ya right!! highest unemployment rate.... bankruptcy is at an all time high .... our people are dying in an unjustified war... giving tax breaks to his rich friends.... petting his buddy Ken Lay on the buns so he doesnt have to meet bubba in the lock up.
man you are fooled
-
Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
VimyJ wrote:
Islam is a minor yet dangerous threat to the west. Iraq was not a theocracy. bush has guaranteed an Islamic theocracy in Iraq. How do you like them apples?
Really? So the democratic government being set up by the US and international community is going to some how magically transform back into the dictatorship we just erradicated? What the heck are you talking about?
-
Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
89240sx, you are not adding anything to this conversation, you dont even make any attempts to add historical refrences or add factual information. At least VimyJ can argue without hurling insults in place of trying to carry out a legitimat debate. Most of your "facts" are made up or incredibly inaccurate at most.
[quote=" Jesda [BI hate when people state their opinions as fact. Its so arrogant. Its like saying "I know for an objective FACT that chrome is better looking than silver!" -- Yeah, if its a fact then whip out the data and prove it.[/quote]
What's a bigger pet peeve of yours? When people state their opinions as facts? Or when people manufacture facts and use them to manipulate opinion?
What's a bigger pet peeve of yours? When people state their opinions as facts? Or when people manufacture facts and use them to manipulate opinion?
J-Spec Tuner wrote:89240sx, you are not adding anything to this conversation, you dont even make any attempts to add historical refrences or add factual information. At least VimyJ can argue without hurling insults in place of trying to carry out a legitimat debate. Most of your "facts" are made up or incredibly inaccurate at most.
wow you deserve a cookie
If you actually read my posts you'd see that I contribute things in a more sarcastic manner.
What facts have I made up? I challenge you to point that out, you want to say something than prove it.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:Really? So the democratic government being set up by the US and international community is going to some how magically transform back into the dictatorship we just erradicated? What the heck are you talking about?
What I'm talking about, J-Spec, is pure demographics. 60% of the Iraqi popualtion are Shi'ite Muslims, the same sect of Islam as the majority of Iran. Iran has a Shi'ite Muslim theocracy. SH fought stupid but US backed wars against Iran. SH dumped radical Shi'ite Muslims into the "woodchippers". The south of Iraq is relativley peaceful becauae that is where the Shi'ites are concentrated. One man one vote means they take control. bush has done the dirty work for them. The Shi'ite Imams preach patience,"it will soon be ours thanks to the great Satan."
You make the fundamental mistake that so many others have made: Iraq was not an Islamic theocracy as organizations like al Qaeda would prefer. It was a secular Ba'athist republic. Not nice guys but they were not the threat. Islam is the threat. bush has advanced the Shi'ites cause. Ask yourself why bush Sr. didn't support the Shi'ite uprisings after the Gulf War and include Iran in your musings.
-
Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
VimyJ wrote:What I'm talking about, J-Spec, is pure demographics. 60% of the Iraqi popualtion are Shi'ite Muslims, the same sect of Islam as the majority of Iran. Iran has a Shi'ite Muslim theocracy. SH fought stupid but US backed wars against Iran. SH dumped radical Shi'ite Muslims into the "woodchippers". The south of Iraq is relativley peaceful becauae that is where the Shi'ites are concentrated. One man one vote means they take control. bush has done the dirty work for them. The Shi'ite Imams preach patience,"it will soon be ours thanks to the great Satan."
You make the fundamental mistake that so many others have made: Iraq was not an Islamic theocracy as organizations like al Qaeda would prefer. It was a secular Ba'athist republic. Not nice guys but they were not the threat. Islam is the threat. bush has advanced the Shi'ites cause. Ask yourself why bush Sr. didn't support the Shi'ite uprisings after the Gulf War and include Iran in your musings.
You speek much truth ( i know that saddam did not represent the religious majority in iraq), but i belive it is at least *posible* for a democracy to work.
Nathan, we can't afford it. bush thought Iraq's oil would be the payoff that would make it all worth it. Money doesn't grow on trees. How do you like a liberal telling you that? Must really sting, eh?Nathan wrote:Right, because your in Congress and know what makes them tick...and right, we had SH playing ball, uh huh...he was REALLY honest. I hope Bush leads our army to a few more countries before you stupid liberals throw out the best president we've had in a long time. I fear it wont happen though
The US is an economic powerhouse but most of the West's other money won't be forthcoming. bush saw to that.
VimyJ wrote:Nathan, we can't afford it. bush thought Iraq's oil would be the payoff that would make it all worth it. Money doesn't grow on trees. How do you like a liberal telling you that? Must really sting, eh?
The US is an economic powerhouse but most of the West's other money won't be forthcoming. bush saw to that.
LoL :ylsuper
J-Spec Tuner wrote:Really? So the democratic government being set up by the US and international community is going to some how magically transform back into the dictatorship we just erradicated? What the heck are you talking about?
Check this out. Public sentiment in Iraq is against American occupation. They appreciate the fact that we ousted Saddam, now they want us gone so that they can have their country back. There is no democracy taking place in Iraq. The entire country is under a state of martial law. There have been numerous occassions of Muslim clerics (the closest they have to what we could consider a representative of the people) who have tried to stand up and take power, only to be beat down by the US for being against the interests of the "Iraqi people".
Well, if the Iraqi people are listening to these people, and these people are gaining a power base that needs to be destabilized by military force, how are we helping the interests of the Iraqi people? If the war was about helping the Iraqi people and getting rid of bad Saddam Hussein, then Bush would be welcoming the UN with open arms, giving them the consessions that they want, and getting the country rebuilt.
Instead, the US military is trying to hold the country together, while our corporations go over there and loot as much as they can.
J-spec and the rest of you, have you seen some sort of foreign policy competency out of the administration that I missed? Last I checked, Afgahanistan is still a huge cluster f-uck. The "democratic" government setup in Kabul doesn't have any influence beyond the city itself. There is a lot more to Afgahanistan than a single city.
The Middle East is a completely foreign place. The fact that we're sitting here talking about it kind of makes me laugh. You guys don't know much more than I do about the dynamics over there. It is so friggen foreign. They are still running their countries on what amounts to a tribal system, with quasi-religious chieftans controlling expanses of land and resources. The idea of trying to bring these people together, many of whom have been waging war on each other for generations, and sit them down in some sort of American style Congress, with the intention that they'll do what is best for the "country" whose borders were setup by the British in the first place, is absolute bull****! The tribes could give two ****s less about each other, much less the notion that they're all supposed to be part of some country.
In Iraq, Saddam happened to be the head chieftan. So the United States backed him, and kept him in power. That's history, that's a fact. We backed Saddam against Iran. Just like we were taught in junior high. All to prevent the spread of Islam, and the evil terroristic ideals that they support.
You know, I find it ironic. For a country that swears to be a huge protector of the freedom to religion, we're following a foreign policy that pisses off a whole bunch of people who happen to be anything other than Christian. Then again, that shouldn't be a surprise. After all, most American's follow "God" in one way or another. Though, religion is just another tool put in place by those in power, to keep the masses in control. After all, if we're taught that killing is bad, and stealing is bad... we're not gonna go kill the CEO whose cost cutting measures pruned a couple thousand jobs. Instead, we'll just take it in stride, because you know what... There's a good place you'll end up in the end if you do what other people, tell you what they think people thousands of years ago, were trying to tell those around them what to do.
Nathan wants more war. That's great. I'm sure that Bush appreciates the support. It's funny, how history repeats itself. It takes about 40-50 years, before enough time has passed that those who learned the brutal lessons of war, have faded into the past. Then a whole new generation, ready to go out and kick some *** comes along. Then they too learn that war sucks, and hopefully they don't take too many of the rest of us with them.
My prediction is that we are in the opening stages of what will become known in the history books as World War 3. I hope that I'm wrong. There are lots of signs that point the other way though. Heck, about a century ago, some dude got shot in Serbia and that pulled the lid off of all sorts of barely repressed animosity. A couple decades later, the Western world got tired of this guy who was helping his people, reclaim what had been taken from them, and make their world safer. It's been a good sixty years.
To those of you who agree with Nathan, I invite you to take a real look at the world situation. Our country has never been weaker. Our jobs have been disappearing into foreign countries for years. I bet that the clothes you are wearing, aren't even made in America. I know that mine aren't. Our politicians are in the pockets of corporate interests. There's no way to fight a corporation these days... they'll just pack up shop, and say "See ya America, I'm moving my operations to sunny Thailand. It's kinda like California, only we don't have to deal with the EPA." We are perceived by the rest of the world as the biggest bully around. We've been bullying the world for a long time. When there were evil communists out there, it was okay... because we were keeping the world safe from the spread of socialism. Now that communism is gone, what the f-uck are we keeping the world safe from? Nothing. We're trying to keep ourselves safe from the world, many of whom happen to be at least idealistically supportive of fundamentalist mentalities who want to do our country harm.
Which leads me back to, what is our country REALLY doing in the Middle East. Why are the Arabian's so frickin pissed off at us? Huh? Do you know what our foreign policy is? I sure the hell don't. Lately I think it's all about "pre-emptive diplomacy" or something like that. Though with the way Iraq is going, I'm not sure that the people of this country would be too hip on trusting our leads to pre-empt anything... unless you're like Nathan.
But hell, we can trust what we're told? I mean, just because TV can be edited real time... and intelligence to attack other countries can be fabricated, doesn't mean that we've been lied to. Does it?
It doesn't really matter though. Congress gave away the right to check the president when it comes to declaring war.
-
Onizuka
- Posts: 8450
- Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2002 5:24 pm
- Car: 91 Nissan S13 coupe SR20DET
89 Nissan S14 hatch SR20DE
VimyJ wrote:Nathan, we can't afford it. bush thought Iraq's oil would be the payoff that would make it all worth it. Money doesn't grow on trees. How do you like a liberal telling you that? Must really sting, eh?
The US is an economic powerhouse but most of the West's other money won't be forthcoming. bush saw to that.
i disagree, i whole-heartedly think the US can "afford" the price of the war on iraq. WWII put a much larger dent in the national debt in buying power terms than 5 iraqi conflicts could.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:You speek much truth ( i know that saddam did not represent the religious majority in iraq), but i belive it is at least *posible* for a democracy to work.
I'd really like to know where people get the idea that an Islamic culture would embrace the western idea of individualism. Individualism is they key to democracy. Individualism is an anathema to a Muslim. There are no Islamic democracies and, in fact, that term is an oxymoron. Allah rules Islamic nations through the word of the Koran. Allah, or more properly, the Koran is supreme not the house majority.
There is a saying in the near orient, "to live under 1000 years of tyranny is better than living under one year of uncertainty." Too bad bush is an uncultured fool. 'Forgive him for he knows not what he does." Balls! Kick the decieving son of a ***** to the curb!