89240sx wrote:Then why is Bush asking for assistance?
because the president doesnt pay for wars out of his own pocket :rolleyes
Boy Who Cried Iraq
VimyJ wrote:What I'm talking about, J-Spec, is pure demographics. 60% of the Iraqi popualtion are Shi'ite Muslims, the same sect of Islam as the majority of Iran. Iran has a Shi'ite Muslim theocracy. SH fought stupid but US backed wars against Iran. SH dumped radical Shi'ite Muslims into the "woodchippers". The south of Iraq is relativley peaceful becauae that is where the Shi'ites are concentrated. One man one vote means they take control. bush has done the dirty work for them. The Shi'ite Imams preach patience,"it will soon be ours thanks to the great Satan."
Look at a parallel, hypothetical example. Lets say that Iraq had the power that the US had, and we had the power that Iraq had. Now pretend that the Iraqi's came storming into the US, took out Washington, put down the looting, rioting, gun totting American populace, and installed an Islamic "democracy", with one person, one vote (which, by the way, we don't even really get here in America, so the idea that Iraqi's are gonna get it is a pipe dream).
Still with the parallel example? So here we are, in America, one person, one vote, and our greatest enemy has come and setup an Islamic centric democracy. How many election cycles do think are going to pass, before the Christian's sway things away from Allah and back to God again?
Okay, now flip flop that back to Iraq and you might begin to see how complexly complicated things are.
Off on another tangent here... if we're so into rebuilding Iraq, why don't we give Iraqi companies billions of dollars, and let them do it? How come American companies have to do it? The answer is, if we let the Iraqi's rebuild their own country, they're going to exclude us. If we force a "rebuilt" country upon them, we get the profits.
Of course though, we, you and I, aren't going to see jack **** out of all this. Neither are the research institutes, public schools, environmental causes, etc, etc, etc. Some how, some where though... we'll be better off as a country after all is said and done.
Hey, you know what? How come Bush hasn't even laid out HIS plan for rebuilding Iraq? It's getting to the point where Congress is going to summon is non-communicative ***, and make him lay out a strategy. If he's such a great president, how come he has to be summoned by Congress before he'll start letting people in on what his plans are?
VimyJ wrote:I'd really like to know where people get the idea that an Islamic culture would embrace the western idea of individualism. Individualism is they key to democracy. Individualism is an anathema to a Muslim. There are no Islamic democracies and, in fact, that term is an oxymoron. Allah rules Islamic nations through the word of the Koran. Allah, or more properly, the Koran is supreme not the house majority.
There is a saying in the near orient, "to live under 1000 years of tyranny is better than living under one year of uncertainty."
:Werd
As was well said above, democracy is as foreign to the Muslim world as religious Daoism is to the West. Sure, there are some people among us who might be able to say, "Hey, I've heard about that." But when it comes down to actually understanding what it's about, well....
The word "democracy" gets used a lot in the context of Iraq. You'll be able to develop a better understanding of what is truly going on, if you replace "democracy" with "capitalism friendly state".
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Onizuka
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VimyJ wrote:I'd really like to know where people get the idea that an Islamic culture would embrace the western idea of individualism. Individualism is they key to democracy. Individualism is an anathema to a Muslim. There are no Islamic democracies and, in fact, that term is an oxymoron. Allah rules Islamic nations through the word of the Koran. Allah, or more properly, the Koran is supreme not the house majority.
There is a saying in the near orient, "to live under 1000 years of tyranny is better than living under one year of uncertainty." Too bad bush is an uncultured fool. 'Forgive him for he knows not what he does." Balls! Kick the decieving son of a ***** to the curb!
i apreaciate the cultural aspect you are arguing, it makes sense. But i cant help but think it is posible for a democracy to take place even in a country like iraq, theorocracy has supression of the group not in power built into that government structure. Cant the iraqies just, all get along
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Onizuka
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89240sx wrote:He is asking for world assistance because we as a nation cannot afford it. He underestimated the situation
he is asking for military assistance so he can bring home american solders. Financially, the US can and will pay for the reconstruction of iraq. We started it, so we are probably going to have to pay for it too.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:i apreaciate the cultural aspect you are arguing, it makes sense. But i cant help but think it is posible for a democracy to take place even in a country like iraq, theorocracy has supression of the group not in power built into that government structure. Cant the iraqies just, all get along
All the Americans Can't just all get along
Phax wrote:The word "democracy" gets used a lot in the context of Iraq. You'll be able to develop a better understanding of what is truly going on, if you replace "democracy" with "capitalism friendly state".
Better yet a "US capitalism friendly state." Those 300 billion barrels of Iraqi oil were just too tempting to the failed oil man, bush. Couldn't keep his hands out of the cookie jar. And those darn Frogs, Ruskies and Krauts were getting there first. Those guys are all bad and stupid. They stink and we should rename food products and pour wine down the sewer. God damn it but we are one stupid bunch of cement heads in this country!
VimyJ wrote:Better yet a "US capitalism friendly state." Those 300 billion barrels of Iraqi oil were just too tempting to the failed oil man, bush. Couldn't keep his hands out of the cookie jar. And those darn Frogs, Ruskies and Krauts were getting there first. Those guys are all bad and stupid. They stink and we should rename food products and pour wine down the sewer. God damn it but we are one stupid bunch of cement heads in this country!
Ya man that was way out of line, France once looked up to the US as a great nation and we should have respected that.
J-Spec Tuner wrote:i apreaciate the cultural aspect you are arguing, it makes sense. But i cant help but think it is posible for a democracy to take place even in a country like iraq, theorocracy has supression of the group not in power built into that government structure. Cant the iraqies just, all get along
It's great to have hope and to want the best for these people but to say all that and tear the country apart and seriously damage the US in the "HOPE" that Iraqis will have a better life is careless and unnecessary, there are other ways to handle humanitarian efforts than war.
Stopping killing by killing only breeds more killing.
Nathan wrote:J-Spec...I am keeping this real, I'm very nearly to the point of either supporting the complete destruction of the entire middle east just to solve the neverending conflict, or just going the Robin William's way and pulling any and all form of support out of any and every country but our own.
He is very real... he believes what he is saying it's just so far on the one end that it seems unbelievable to us.
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Onizuka
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89240sx wrote:It's great to have hope and to want the best for these people but to say all that and tear the country apart and seriously damage the US in the "HOPE" that Iraqis will have a better life is careless and unnecessary, there are other ways to handle humanitarian efforts than war.
Stopping killing by killing only breeds more killing.
we did it to japan, the seem to be doing great. (heck if you think about it, what we did to japan is alot worse than anything that has happend to the iraqies)
refer to previous post on the iraqi people, and you keep forgetting this war was NOT started in to help the Iraqi people... that was just a later statement to cover up the initial screw up regarding the weapons.J-Spec Tuner wrote:i agree that the international community has no obligation to help us, but it sure would help the iraqi people.
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Onizuka
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89240sx wrote:refer to previous post on the iraqi people, and you keep forgetting this war was NOT started in to help the Iraqi people... that was just a later statement to cover up the initial screw up regarding the weapons.
im not talking about the start of the war, im talking about stopping iraqies from killing iraqies (a big problem in case you havent noticed)
Someone has to do it! I'd be reasonably happy if there could be some middle ground found, I just dont think it's possible. I'd venture to say it's even impossible to make 50% of the world happy.