anybody heard of remote mount turbo system?

[sstomek]

alright so i just finished watching a documentary on the group b rally cars during the 80s, and what caught my eye was the Lancia-Fiat 037. It was a 4WD mid-engine rally car. The kicker was that it had both a supercharger and a turbo charger. The supercharger would make up for what the turbo lacked at the low end and then at the high end the turbo would kick in.

So then I thought of this thread and thought about the possibility of a remote-mount turbo with a supercharger in the engine bay. That way the supercharger will make up even more on the low end since it is said to take longer to spool on a remote mount.

The only problem they had with the Lancia 037 was with torque. I am still uncertain on how the torque is produced in the engine and what components contribute to torque so I am unsure why there was a problem with torque and if it was because of their forced induction setup.

would this kind of setup seem realistic on a 240? It seems if you've got the money for both chargers than it should be doable. What do you guys think?

-Tomek

[S13FX]

The lag part with a remote mount turbo, is not all necessarily true. It's all in the fact of choosing the right turbo for your application.

If you think about it having a long charge pipe compared to a fairly large intercooler works out pretty evenly. True with a charge pipe that long you don't get a cooling effect you would with an IC, but it's pretty damn good especially for lower boost applications

With that said with a straight up charge pipe you also don't have that air restriction you do with a conventional IC.

But hey you gotta lose something to gain something. In this case it's the cooling effect.

In all honestly too I have never really rode in a remote mounted car, but I will soon and I will tell all about it ..

[240cp]

sstomek what s13fx is saying is true, to me at least. if you size your turbo properly the lag wont be as bad. especially if u have a supercharger. i am thinking on remote mounting my turbo about where the cat converter is that way the turbo isnt as far back because im gone have to go through alot more piping than s13fx is.

i plan on blowing through my sc'er, bringing up the efficiency of the sc'er. i dont plan on no more than about 10psi right now so i shouldnt have a prob. that way i can start small, work out all the bugs and move on from there.

there is only one thing i have to worry about, is the fact that my turbo will be feeding the sc'er. the turbo hot side will infact be the sc'er intake, so we'll see how this effects the sc'er being that it will be a good ways from it.

[240cp]

also s13fx you said you got you 16ft oil line made, so you are going to tap into the sending unit and return through the valve cover? if i go remote i think i am going to use like a two quart reserve (might even mount the reseverve container inside the car?) and pass the oil through a oil cooler. you can get the core for like 20.00 at advanced discount. and just get the lines made at my local napa.

i know a guy there and he will hook me up. if i go the manifold mount way i still might use the small resevoir tank, i already bought the d@mn pump, jumped the gun on that one lol. also keeps me from having to tap into the oil pan.

[Florida240sx]

What pump you got?Link? I got a turbo.... I can do this within 2 weeks. I already know about ka-t's got an safc II, and wideband...

[240cp]

there are a couple you can get, depends on how much you want to spend. got mine off ebay. but you can go to turbowerx.com or mocal.com. turbowerx is 200.00 and mocal is like 170 or 180 not sure. but what you need is a oil scavage pump.

[240cp]

on page 2 of this thread wdracing has a link to mocal racing it is a differential pump.

[S13FX]

My turbowerks unit finally came in and it's looking awesome. I can't wait to get this puppy going. Pics coming by the end of the weekend WOOT WOOT

[240cp]

h$!! yeah cant wait to see how it looks!!

[Edub1]

Heat is not the only thing that drives a turbine - most of it is the huge increase in gas volume you get when you change liquid gasoline into gaseous products like CO2.

Never the less, one would have to imagine that there is some loss from losing heat and that using a small turbine housing, while feasible, is not optimum. Also, I would be concerned with the reliability of such a setup. One would probably want to use redundant oil pumps wired with warning lights. Then again, will these pumps always be flowing the correct amount to keep excess pressure off of the oil seals? It seems to me like this might be one of those things that works well but for a short period of time.

As for their "patent" that is a joke. They think they have a patent on a location - right. Even if they did I think a patent only prevents a person from selling the item. I'm not aware that you can't make one for your own use. Even so, I guess that is a preview of what it would be like to do business with these guys.

I'd stick with the conventional setup if at all possible.

[Florida240sx]

I'm switching form my iap set-up to remote.... Keeping my FMIC going to confuse people when the hood is popped.... hmm need for my brm exhaust anymore...to the vert it must be go...How is the pump working? Because I got a SS line coming off the turbo, Need to have that flow to a small tank and then pump from it?

[S13FX]

Well I pretty much have everything for the Remote Mount, just had a few setback with other projects this weekend.

I gotta get my RB up and running first, so when I get the Miata Apart I have something to drive around.

Was busy this weekend with the KA-ET which Im hoping right now has only a broken Distributor.

More updates coming soon.

[WDRacing]

Whatever pump you guys go with, make sure they are ok with oil and high temps.

The Mocal is already proven, thats the only reason I posted it. IU've seen a Shurflow water pump used as well, but it scares me a little.

WD

[240cp]

florida240sx you can use a small resevior with the feed and return lines tapped in to it, or you can use the oil pressure sending unit with a adapter on the fitting to supply the turbo with oil.

then put the pump on the return side of the turbo and have the oil retun back in to the valve cover via the oil fill cap that has been modified.

me personally i like the resevoir better. no need to tap into the engine for oil. but my way would probably need a oil cooler in the return line. but you can get them at advanced auto for 27.00 with all the necessary fittings.

plus if you wanted you could put the resevior in the trunk, thats only if you want. theres pros and cons this method obvioulsy!

[WDRacing]

The only serious issue I see with a remote mount on the 240SX isn't so much an issue, but a matter of choice. The SSAC bottom mount mani is $50, a T3 flange is $4, a T3/TO4E is $350, external wg is $250.

Thats a cheap and proven method for boost. I wouldn't remote mount my 240SX. I'd save that idea for many other vehicles that lack underhood options though for sure. My wifes Endeavor would be nice, or anything with a FWD V6 would make a great candidate, like any of the Maxima's.

WD

[240cp]

i agree wdracing, the only reason i was curious about this setup was i had heard of no one trying this in the 4 cylinder world and was wanting to try something different.

it could be a good setup if someone wasnt wanting huge power, and can be done for little $. also with my supercharger lag is not a issue, i have my power immediately from go and then the turbo can take off where the supercharger falls short.

what ya think?

[240cp]

well s13fx how's it coming with the remote setup, you never got those pics up. hope you got it all together.

[C-Kwik]

sstomek what s13fx is saying is true, to me at least. if you size your turbo properly the lag wont be as bad. especially if u have a supercharger. i am thinking on remote mounting my turbo about where the cat converter is that way the turbo isnt as far back because im gone have to go through alot more piping than s13fx is.

i plan on blowing through my sc'er, bringing up the efficiency of the sc'er. i dont plan on no more than about 10psi right now so i shouldnt have a prob. that way i can start small, work out all the bugs and move on from there.

there is only one thing i have to worry about, is the fact that my turbo will be feeding the sc'er. the turbo hot side will infact be the sc'er intake, so we'll see how this effects the sc'er being that it will be a good ways from it.

I've missed a lot of this thread, so I'm chiming in a bit late on this portion of it. But if you run the turbo compressor's discharge into the supercharger, you'll actually get won't add up the boost. You'll multiply their respective pressure ratios. So if each were tuned to run 10 psi individually, you may potentially have crossover areas generating 26 psi of boost rather than even 20 psi. Running chargers in series can be advantageous in high boost situations, but most gasoline engines running on non-race fuel will likely have little benefit. Factory dual boost set-ups run in parallel or perhaps could be done so that it switches entirely from one to the other. The plumbing, hardware, and tuning for something like this would probably not be worth it for a single applications like this. Especially for a street car.

I won't discourage you from trying, but it would be wise to understand this completely before venutring into such a project.

[240cp]

i read your post carefully c-kwik, and respectfully, but what i have found from research and some reading, is that the supercharger limits the amount of air flow.

so, if say i want 10 psi, my supercharger has to be able to pump 10 psi, with the turbo pumping through the supercharger it brings the efficienciey up. where the sc'er runs out at higher rpm's, (i know this from experience) the turbo will keep boost coming.

i will intercool between turbo and sc'er to try and keep temps down, and then intercool again before the final intake charge. but like i said before, not going for huge numbers. just lag free boost, and i think 14 to 16 psi. is acheiveable with sc'er and turbo combo. maybe i'm wrong but it's worth a try don't you think?

[S13FX]

HIII,

Here is the deal, I simply am out of time to do anything right now. The Miata will be remote mount asap, some time next week I'm going to the Dyno to get her dynoed to see what shes doing right now.

But this weekend I'm dedicating to my RB project which I want finished so I can woop some *** with it.

Don't worry I did not give up on this project nor did I forget I just been very busy with a lot of ****. I'm going to be working closely with a friend of mine who owns a tuning shop here, and they can fab anything you heart desires.

[C-Kwik]

I'll try to clarify now that I have a bit more time to post. Any supercharger or turbo works not by adding a preset amount of boost. It does not care what specific pressure is output. They increase pressure by a certain ratio. This is why you see pressure ratio as the Y-axis of any compressor map. So if you see 7 psi in the manifold at sea level, and you went to an altitude that you would see half the ambient pressure, you would actually see 3.8 psi in the manifold. More simply, a compressor takes the pressure going in and multiplies it by the pressure ratio the compressor is running at and spits out higher pressure air.

To see this a bit more easily, look at all the pressure in absolute pressures. At sea level, a car running 7 psi would have an absolute pressure of 21.7 psi. At an altitude high enough to half that, you'ld start with 7.35 psi in the atmosphere and end up with 10.731 psi absolute in the manifold.

Now what I was trying to explain is that in any series chained compressors, when the first compressor makes some boost, it will send pressurzed air to the second compressor. If the second compressor is increasing the pressure ratio at all, it will multiply theair already pressurized by the first compressor. It will not simply add to it.

To show you somenumbers here, let's say you decide you want 10 psi (pressure ratio of 1.68) from the turbo and 7 psi (1.48 PR) from the SC at the RPM's you respectively want them doing their jobs in. So the SC does it's job fine up to whatever RPM you tuned it to and is starting to lose boost. Let's say it drops to about 5 psi (1.34 PR). The turbo is probably spooling by now and conservatively, let's say it's just getting to about 7 psi (1.48 PR). So starting with 14.7 psi in the atmosphere, the turbo kicks it up to 21.75 psi. Then the supercharger takes a hold of it and now you get 29.15 psi. The overall pressure difference would end up being 14.45 psi in the manifold.

It is correct that an SC will be limited to a certain amount of airflow. That's purely in terms of volume. Starting with higher pressure at the inlet will simply start with denser air of the same volume.

Now, I know what you are probably thinking. Size the turbo and supercharger so that there is no overlap. Big turbo? Great. Small supercharger? Not so great. Consider that if you run too small a supercharger, such that it can't flow enough air to provide boost at higher RPM's, then it's way out of it's efficiency range. There are two problems with this. First, it essentially becomes a heat pump. Second, it saps a lot of power.

Also, if you're thought is that a turbo will increase the S/C's efficiency, it won't. You have to consider the overall efficiency. Unless you're running fairly high boost levels, the turbo used in such a set-up will likely be smallish and be on the lower-end of efficiency as far as turbos go. Using a large turbo in this manner would probably force the turbo to run at low pressure ratios and run quite inefficiently, completely negating any benefits of a larger turbo. In any case, suppoing you do find a decent combination of compressors, and if the turbo were more efficient, then the supercharger would bring down the efficiency of the turbo. Or more accurately, the overall efficiency itself.

There are some options however. The simplest would probably be to design the sytem so that the S/C and turbo's cumulative boost will be the target boost. You'll likely need to give yourself a higher boost ceiling that 10 psi to get anything efficient out if it though. For the S/C, you would need to try and keep the boost curve as flat as possible so that the turbo's added boost will be more predictable. Otherwise, you'll be pulling all your hair out trying to even size a turbo correctly for this.

A more complicated option would be to run them in parallel with various bypasses and throttle plates to switch the boost devices at preset parameters.

A perhaps slightly simpler solution than the latter would be to run them in series an perhaps with a couple of bypasses and have the ability to switch off the power to the S/C, ala air conditioner-like pulley.

I will say however, that the trouble of going through all this will not net you much, if any perceivable gain over a well designed and thought out turbo system.

As I said before, I'm not one to discourage anyone from trying interesting things, but I am concerned that there is a lot you haven't thought about here.

As a final thought for you to ponder, there are actually turbos designed by Garrett (unknown if they are in use anywhere yet) that have 2 compressor wheels attached to a single turbine wheel. It essentially takes air into what would appear to be a nomral compressor and the compressed air goes into another compressor that is mated to the back of the first compressor. It was designed to take advantage of the multiplication of pressure ratios to try and reach high boost levels without trying to overstress a single compressor. There is enough benefit to this type of technology to have warranted it's design, however, the intended use is for diesel motors that see some 50 psi or so (IIRC). This type of pressure multiplication will likely see little to no benefit over available turbos in the boost levels a gasoline powered car will ever need.

[Edub1]

Agreed. I'm no expert on superchargers but I would think that in theory they should multiply the ambiant pressure by whatever ratio to get the final pressure.

One big problem with this system is that you might also pass along heat to the SC rather than O2 - this would be bad as you would be double compressing dead air. In that case you have high pressure & heat but no O2 to show for it.

Although such inventions are fun, I'd have to say that it is an awful lot of trouble and expence when you can just get a GT35R and call it a day. If you really want to increase the efficiancy of the SC why not just spray it with a 35HP shot of N2O.

As for the remote mount. I would use a seperate oil system with 2 pumps and a warning light. It would really suck to have a failure and lose all of your engine oil. It's something to be done as a last resort I think.

[240cp]

well, i appericiate the well writen and very knowledgeable post c-kwik. i cant even begin to act like i know about all of what you just said there, but thanks anyway!!

but there is a reason i chose this method. i was on google and searched twincharging. it took me to the wipedia site, and there was a write up on the benefits and drawbacks of this type setup.

one of the ways that it said twincharging could be done was to blow through the sc'er. but it also stated that there was inherent drawbacks, and it would be limited to how much the supercharger could flow. this is why i said i would limit everything to around 10 psi.

as the supercharger cant go no higher than 14 psi. i am useing a eaton m62 from a nissan frontier. by the way my car is already supercharged and intercooled. was just pondering new things i could do with my car. just to add i might still try it this way just for sh!ts and giggles. as i already have a turbo and spare intercooler.

but again thank you for responding!!!

[Edub1]

well, i appericiate the well writen and very knowledgeable post c-kwik. i cant even begin to act like i know about all of what you just said there, but thanks anyway!!

but there is a reason i chose this method. i was on google and searched twincharging. it took me to the wipedia site, and there was a write up on the benefits and drawbacks of this type setup.

one of the ways that it said twincharging could be done was to blow through the sc'er. but it also stated that there was inherent drawbacks, and it would be limited to how much the supercharger could flow. this is why i said i would limit everything to around 10 psi.

as the supercharger cant go no higher than 14 psi. i am useing a eaton m62 from a nissan frontier. by the way my car is already supercharged and intercooled. was just pondering new things i could do with my car. just to add i might still try it this way just for sh!ts and giggles. as i already have a turbo and spare intercooler.

but again thank you for responding!!!

Now are you sure the article wasn't speaking of a particular type of SC designed only to run part time while allowing a turbo to blow through it the rest of the time? Or perhaps it is gated some how. I think the key is that you have to know exactely how the SC functions. But in general, the SC compresses what you feed it by a given ratio. If it is 2:1 and you feed it 1 bar you get 2 bar out - feed it 2 bar you will get 4 bar out. Unless of course it has a BOV of some type that limits pressure. Like I said, you have to know how your SC is designed.

Consider this though. What about a small turbo with a big exhaust for a low boost high exhaust flow design. The logic here is that you let the SC do it's thing and feed it with say 4lbs when the turbo gets going. If I and C-kwik are correct you will wind up with plenty of boost when that 4 lbs is further compressed and you will not restrict your exhaust.

[240cp]

the way it explained, the turbo will feed the supercharger and then the sc'er further compresses the turbocharged air. and this will be hapening all the time. of course the turbo will prob be set to something like 5 or 6 psi. and the charger pulley should be capable of 10 to 12 psi.

this might work and it might not. if it dont i will keep working on it cause i love the idea of twincharging. i just hope i can simplify this method.

[C-Kwik]

If you didn't understand what I posted, you might consider that at this point, you may be in over your head. I'd say. you'ld be in a much better position to tackle a project like this if you can get to a point where my post makes sense to you. Unless of course, you have the budget to support a trial and error approach...

If there is anything you'ld like me to clarify, please feel free to ask...

[240cp]

na man i understand what you sayin, just being respectful and appreciative. ive been around cars all my life. my dad and uncle both own shops. was just throwing some ideas of mine out there. they aint owned by me by no means but just something i was thinking about.

i will be getting to this and will try it like i was saying, if it dont work well looks like its back to the ol' drawing board, but i honestly think if i pressurize the intake side of the supercharger by a slight bit. it will help bring the efficiency of my sc'er up and help the top end.

once again i want to THANK YOU for chiming in on this, as it seems that you know a great deal about force charging a vehicle. and about car's period.

[Edub1]

na man i understand what you sayin, just being respectful and appreciative. ive been around cars all my life. my dad and uncle both own shops. was just throwing some ideas of mine out there. they aint owned by me by no means but just something i was thinking about.

i will be getting to this and will try it like i was saying, if it dont work well looks like its back to the ol' drawing board, but i honestly think if i pressurize the intake side of the supercharger by a slight bit. it will help bring the efficiency of my sc'er up and help the top end.

once again i want to THANK YOU for chiming in on this, as it seems that you know a great deal about force charging a vehicle. and about car's period.

Do as you wish but understand two things: 1) Wikipedia can be edited by anybody and the info there should always be taken with cation. 2) Proper grammer is expected by most here on NICO. You can trust what ever info you care to and jump into what ever blind trials you wish but please use proper grammer when posting. I know there at least a couple of moderators that will delete posts and even ban if you persist.

[Florida240sx]

So the return line from turbo goes straight to the scavenge pump to another line which goes to my oil pan "already tapped" Where can I get the line made? Feed line from oil pressure to turbo.. short rturn lin to oil scavenge pump. To (small/big?) return line to oil pan.. It'll be pressurized so I could just use one the same as my feed correct?

[Florida240sx]

I plan to do this to my vert. Drive it down to Tampa. Dyno and then remove to put my v8 in.