4.5 pgs of crap and FI vs NA +F1

[xiongbs13]

well it pass smog, i am just asking cuz i might do high compression too

[WDRacing]

Also for the one asking my compression , notice the race gas we are running in this thing also. Turbo is for boys who dont take pride in building a real motor. NO we are not running nitrous.

I wasn't going to say how queer I think you are till you mentioned that turbo's are for people who don't take pride in building a motor. Here's a few facts for you..

1. You're a lying *** dog2. Forced induction will ALWAYS...make more power then NA3. A decked block...isn't a mod genious, its somthing anyone does during the build process if they have even the slightest clue what they're doing.4. Did I mention you're GAY!!!

Thanks for posting crap and wasting bandwidth...Merry Christmas

[InsanityInc]

2. Forced induction will ALWAYS...make more power then NA

Eh... the current gen F1 engines that are NA have gotten to the point where they make more power than the FI engines back when FI was still allowed. The whole FI makes more power thing is only really true if you're talking about the same RPM scale.

[WDRacing]

I don't want to turn this into a boost vs no boost thread bro, but in terms of ANY street driven motor, I'm going to make more power with FI then I can with NA. I'm sorry, but thats fact...

WD

[InsanityInc]

I don't want to turn this into a boost vs no boost thread bro, but in terms of ANY street driven motor, I'm going to make more power with FI then I can with NA. I'm sorry, but thats fact...

WD

Ok. By saying "street driven motor" you're performing an ad-hoc RPM restriction. My point is just that FI = more power isn't ubiquitously true.

[WDRacing]

OK, I'll bite...yes it is. By adding 1 psi over atmospheric to any motor, you'll gain power. Now prove me wrong.

WD

[Florida240sx]

OK, I'll bite...yes it is. By adding 1 psi over atmospheric to any motor, you'll gain power. Now prove me wrong.

WD

LOL. Any kind of positive power will always add power.

[S13FX]

Hey there is no replacement for displacement unless your running a turbo which is a lot more practical anyways. so once again boost wins N/A is for Hondas anyways and who the hell is going to be driving around a ****in F1 Car lol.

[Bigvinnie]

OK, I'll bite...yes it is. By adding 1 psi over atmospheric to any motor, you'll gain power. Now prove me wrong.

WD

You will gain power. But then you have to look at the excessive waste of fuel that is dumped just to chill the cylinder temprature from raising AE above atmospheric pressure. Any pressure above what is taken in from atmospheric pressure will raise temprature. So technically turbo charging uses more energy to make a fraction of the power output you see at the wheels, since fuel is infact an energy source with the largest BTU output. NA engines make suitable power while conserving fuel at a fraction of the pulse width. It's really an entirely different ball game.Shure you can turbo charge a 4 banger to compete on the level of a 6 or 8 cylinder naturally aspirated engine, fact is those bigger naturally aspirated engines will still get better gas mileage .The average person that owns a 4 banger doesn't neccessarily buy it for gas guzzling purposes, but rather for more conservative purposes. Naturally Aspirated 4 bangers have there place in the performance market.

As I recall a KA24de gets better gas mileage than an SR20det at 7PSI. A KA24de gets better gas mileage with bolt ons. Right now I get relatively 30MPG, while an SR at 7PSI gets relatively 22MPG.


Modified by Bigvinnie at 5:48 PM 12/6/2006

[sliders]

wdracing

1.im not lying2. I never said you could get more power n/a than turbo3.I am talking about square decking which is totally different then just resurfacing your block which you do do when you rebuild a motor but square decking is a lengthy process so most people dont do it4.Im not gay just ask your mom and sister they are loud screamers...

[WDRacing]

That post is only semi correct...you used the word...fraction, like the tremendous increase in horse power barely exceeds the fuel being used...yeah, thats wrong.

Here's the way power is made, the more air and fuel you burn, the more power you get...period. If you say I can't run a ton of boost without using a ton of fuel to cool it off, I'll say you're wrong, I run AFR's in the high 12's...what AFR are you running on your NA? Want me to run leaner...I'll use alcohol injection.

I can get great gas mileage, simply keep your foot off the go pedal and you don't even see boost. So I'll get just as many miles per gallon as the next guy.

But please tell me fuel conservation isn't being argued where power is in question

WD

[Florida240sx]

wdracing

4.Im not gay just ask your mom and sister they are loud screamers...

Think he has struck out after that one. Kiss your a55 goodbye. You like being on the hate list don't you? We forgot about your little story, and started talkign positively and then you make a stab at a mod....

[Bigvinnie]

If you say I can't run a ton of boost without using a ton of fuel to cool it off, I'll say you're wrong, I run AFR's in the high 12's...what AFR are you running on your NA? Want me to run leaner...I'll use alcohol injection.

I can get great gas mileage, simply keep your foot off the go pedal and you don't even see boost. So I'll get just as many miles per gallon as the next guy.

But please tell me fuel conservation isn't being argued where power is in question

Well on a stock ecu tune the AFR range is relatively in the high 13's usually around a 13.7:1 ratio. Injectors are still at 270cc allowing them to be maxed out at about 200~210Crank HP. Now on an NA I can still use my SAFC and run the ratio at 14.7:1 (stoich) and make more power, but then timing would need to remain at 20BTDC I don't believe any further advancement could be made. This would be allowed since temprature and pressure havent increased too much and the knock sensor does catch some of the problem by retarding the ignition timing.Now lets assume that there is an SR20det stock tune at about a 13.2:1 AFR, 370cc injectors, and makes about 200~210 crank HP. (That is pretty much what it is), and now hopefully you can compare the difference in power to fuel consumption. Fuel is an energy that can be used or not used, just running the AFR's lower towards the high 12's even sets the example that more fuel is beeing used in the combustion chamber.I would rather have that energy conserved in my fuel tank, than just expelled as an HC and CO through my tail pipe (unused energy).

For an example here is collected data of dyno charts.First is a stock sr20det.Bolt on KA header, pulley, and ecu tune (Scotts dyno from geo cities)Now lets slap the 2 together, and guess which one is more energy effecient...

At the same time I'm not a tree hugger so if you like to use more fuel than needed to make power than what average engines can't make that is fine by me. But this chart shows that engine VE on NA is ALWAYS 100% effecient in making power at a fraction of the pulse width and fuel needed..

[S13FX]

AND THEN????

[Florida240sx]

hmm....2.0 not 2.4.... different head....different engine..... why don't we compare a SC car to a NA.

[WDRacing]

Dude...you've got to be kidding me.

There's obviously no getting through here. Lets put it this way, I want you to take a KA24DE and make as much power as you can with it, then I'll add 1 psi and make more power without changing anything. I won't add fuel or retard timing...nothing. Do you think I'll make more power?

I never said anything about fuel, I said a motor will ALWAYS make more power under boost...and it will. Why even argue the minutia...facts are facts man. I have nothing against natural aspiration. I love throttle response and no lag.

That doesn't change the fact that forced induction will make more power.

WD

[nismofly]

id still be interested in hearing why its got turbo afr's

ill settle this once and for all tomorrow, im calling the shop

like i already said...sliders ive got your home address sitting in front of me, and its halfway across the country from the shop

would you like me to post it for everyone to see?

[superDorifto]

yes we would

[Bigvinnie]

Dude...you've got to be kidding me.

There's obviously no getting through here. Lets put it this way, I want you to take a KA24DE and make as much power as you can with it, then I'll add 1 psi and make more power without changing anything. I won't add fuel or retard timing...nothing. Do you think I'll make more power?

I never said anything about fuel, I said a motor will ALWAYS make more power under boost...and it will. Why even argue the minutia...facts are facts man. I have nothing against natural aspiration. I love throttle response and no lag.

That doesn't change the fact that forced induction will make more power.

WD

Alright I guess you win this one this time. Just because I went soooo off topic with the whole fuel deal. But a 15.1:1 NA KA can make 350 HP, it's just a matter of spending bookoo bucks.....

[Bigvinnie]

id still be interested in hearing why its got turbo afr's

ill settle this once and for all tomorrow, im calling the shop

like i already said...sliders ive got your home address sitting in front of me, and its halfway across the country from the shop

would you like me to post it for everyone to see?

You shouldn't waste your time. Your better off just banning him and his I.P address so that he can't log on here anymore....

[WDRacing]

HAHAHAHA....bookoo is right. I'd give a left nut to drive a NA KA with 350 at the damn crank.

[SSS]

Bigvinnie, all the factory tunes i've seen run pig rich in the upper rpm range, like around the 11.5-12:1 mark at WOT near max rpms, if not richer.How are you making your peak power at 14.7:1 at WOT in the upper end of the rpm range? Most NA motors tend to make their peak power with AFR's around the 12.8-13.7:1 range.

Also, 2 motors, with the same AFR's across the board, one NA and the other inhaling "1psi" as WD said, will have different VE's.

That is the whole idea of positive intake pressure. It increases the VE of a given motor compared to it's NA counterpart; in the example WD gave, if both motors NA have a VE of 80% then one is breathed upon with 1psi, that motor will have a VE approx 5% higher than that of the NA motor, requiring more fuel to maintain the same AFR's.

[neverlift]

most cars do get max power from that afr range but the ka is stupid it likes closer to 14.8. mine does at least.I will say stock ka tune (sohc) is rich pretty much everywhere. Once closed loop is disabled and cleared my car would run in the low 11~12,lean out a little from that then start with fuel dumping again. I am glad to be tuning it myself. I have already paid for the willem and damn near the walbro. I was getting in the 12~16mpg if lucky with stock code. Now I'm back upto the 20mpg range ALL spirited driving unless my son is with me.

As for the turbo making more power. take the 15:1 motor and add 1psi and change nothing. It will make more power but will it go pop.

WD ban sliders talking about your family. post his address!

[WDRacing]

WD ban sliders talking about your family. post his address!

I don't have much ground to stand on...I did call him queer...lol. He's under the radar now though.

Everyone knows he's a LAD. So it doesn't matter what he posts from here on out, we'll all know he's lying.

WD

[Ajax]

Out of curiosity, could it be possible to see those dyno numbers while in a lower gear? I seem to recall some SCC article (about the Tornado gadget) and dynos showing different numbers due to gearing.

[InsanityInc]

OK, I'll bite...yes it is. By adding 1 psi over atmospheric to any motor, you'll gain power. Now prove me wrong.

WD

Sure, if you have the Magical Hand Of God (tm) that can reach into the motor and change atmospheric pressure.

However, that isn't what turbocharging does. The turbo attempts to flow a certain CFM of air, which when above and beyond what the motor can flow naturally creates a higher pressure. Once the engine itself starts to outdo the maximum CFM the turbo can push (on the intake side) or the amount that can pass through its exhaust vane, the turbo boost and power will drop.

So unless you're willing to continuously upsize the turbo and lose any semblence of a power band, increase turbo lag, etc. you cannot just always throw a turbo on something and accomplish a meaningful increase in power.

For an example of this effect, imagine throwing a very small turbo onto an F1 engine that can naturally produce 800+ horsepower. You'd actually lose power.

[WDRacing]

First off, I'm 100% right in saying that a motor will have higher output with any pressure over atmospheric. That statement can't be taken apart. I didn't say it had to be a turbo. We can go around and around with different scenerio's, but if boost is applied, the output will increase...period dot.

WD

[ShionS14]

I just wanted to chime in here because I am actually going to school for race car engineering and anytime I see anything about an f1 engine my sphinctor clenches just a little. But WD is correct anytime boost is applied to an engine the power potential is greatly increased. F1 no longer uses forced induction due to the FIA passing regulations for safety reasons and homologation on the track to make the sport much more exciting, hence the new rule is the companies are now stuck with one engine design for a certain period (1 to 3 years, I can't remember) no updates or reengineering is allowed. Now, when they did use FI on the engines they made over 1,000 bhp during the 80's, 1,200 bhp was the max anyone ever produced. They were then regulated to a NA engine varying from an H16, to the glorious 3 liter V10 that made 800 bhp at 20,000 rpm, and now the 2.4 liter V8 making roughly 700 bhp at 19,000 rpm. The ability of an NA engine to achieve high power is dependent on its volumetric efficiency, the easiest way to do that is by making the engine rotate faster. In the 80's these engines were limited to about 12,000 rpm because of the metal valve springs but in the 1990's they achieved 20,000 rpm by using pressurised air to control the valves. Now I have gone completely off subject but the 1,200 bhp was achieved with 1.5 liter engines and WD is correct. Perfect example: take two top fuel dragsters, exactly the same engine and everything. Now remove the blower from one of them, line them up and run the 1/4 mile and see who finishes first.

[WDRacing]

Didn't they run on basically straight Toluene with like a splash of water?? I can't remember exactly, I used to know when I was getting into the DIY Alky Injection. But methonal is just so much cheaper...hence my lapse in memory...or perhaps it was the beer.

I don't know why we ever argue about NA vs FI, usually the only thing deterring anyone from going FI is class restriction...etc. There really is no argument for NA being better then FI, or really vice versa. Both can do almost anything you'd like them to. I was simply crushing that dip****s ego a little, I didn't mean for it to turn into this debate...even if I'm the smartest dude ever!!!!!!!

Merry Christmas

[DjPantsSpecR]

lol, a few things have happened in this thread.

the only things i wanted to add about any of this debate was this:

on the level of these F1 cars, the N/A motors do infact, as you say " have the magical hand of boost gods" IN them.

you cant tell me that an all-motor engine with a plenum and runners tuned to high rpm, doesnt use a gain of at least 1-2+ psi depending on max rpm.

thats why N/A motors like plenums under the size of their displacement. less volume allows the air in the plenum to be "packed" or pressurized more easily by the columns of air bouncing back and force and inverting.

turbo motors like plenums to be 100% or greater than the motors displacement. for example i hear Xcesssive has choosen 3.2 liters for their KA plenum. This is because turbos are already pressurizing the air, and too small of a plenum couldnt move enough air. this will start to cause turbulence and possibly reversion of sorts.

so... i guess all i wanted to say is that N/A motors use pressurized air to make more power....

and we're missing the point of this whole thread:it sucks and its four pages.