240sx vs integra/prelude

[gounc14]

I understand that we have these cars because we like turning them into something better, shoot thats exactly why I got mine....but comparing a stock 240 and a stock teg is like comparing two name brand tricycles. And believe me, flohtingPoint, the SHO would have no problem destroying a gsr with a 14.9 sec 1/4 stock.

[marshun]

Good luck finding a 95 Teg for less than a 95 240sx. Honda/Acura prices have been inflated for years now... which is part of the reason I went with Nissan. (That and the S13 240sx is just the SEXIEST car ever built.) At the same time, 240sx prices have been ballooning lately, in part or in whole due to the drifting craze the US is experiencing.

Anyway, there's the question of a drivetrain's inherent abilities and limitations. With gobs of extra money, let's say $10K, you can turn a 240 into a blazing drag car, no questions asked. However, with that same amount of money, you couldn't make the Teg a drift car. Inherent limitations. No matter how much money you throw at a FF, it will still be a FF, and changing the car's drivetrain is like a sex change... people won't know how to react, the car will have unplanned internal issues that come up after the fact, and... well... yeah. You get the point.

The fact is, FF is the most limiting drivetrain there is. Sports cars, REAL factory sports cars, avoid that drivetrain ENTIRELY! Think about it...

FR-Layout Sports Cars - Viper, Vette, Cobra, 300ZX, Supra, Skyline, RX-7 (FC and FD), Vantage, Vanquish, Camaro, etc...

MR-Layout Sports Cars - NSX, Most Italians (Ferarri, Lambo, etc.), Elise, MR-2 Turbo, all Indy cars, etc...

AWD-Layout Sports Cars - 3000GT, Skyline GT-R, WRX, LanEvo, most rally cars, etc...

FF-Layout Sports Cars - ...

But I suppose that if you want a nice car that'll get you around town in one piece and not much else, it all comes down to what colors they come in.

Figure out what you want from the car you buy and go from there. To continue the metaphor used above, if you want to get with a girl, don't go hook up with a guy and spend s#itloads of cash making him a girl. Just get a girl. LOL, anyway, both are great cars. Either way, I'm sure you'll be happy with your choice.

idunno if you ever keep up with the jgtc races and other japanese races. but if you look at where a civic type r and integra type r's stand, you wouldnt think that. the honda's usually place higher than A WHOLE LOT of FR nissans and toyota's.

proving again and again that its about the driver.

[flohtingPoint]

000000000000

[240SXer]

Any race stock for stock average driver I’d bet on the 240. GSRs have a poor power band and just aren't good drag cars. Remember, that's what I do, drag race. Let's not get it confused. 1/4 mile. I don't know where you've been looking, or if you just cruise in a car and it feels fast, but the GSR isn’t fast for dragging. And a few tenths difference is far from a 'puppy dog' what is the exact performance difference you feel there is? Rather than using technical terms like 'puppy dog' why don't you come up with some #s. How much faster is it?

[flohtingPoint]

I dont drag, never have probably never will. Going straight fast isnt fun to me, its too short for my tastes. I do AutoX, and leave the drag racing to the fords/chevys/dodges/etc. You, on the other hand, enjoy drag racing, and I respect that. Trying to stand up a case on something I dont have any personal experience on (dragging) is a pretty pointless case anyway.

As far as numbers go, hang on while I go buy back my old SE =P I cant supply any numbers Brother, unless I race a GSR with my SR20, which will not be much of a challenge.

[240SXer]

Okay, that's fair. Maybe for other type of racing the GSR is better, but a stock GSR is slow. Just as slow as the 240 stock. Probably slower.

[masticatingcow]

idunno if you ever keep up with the jgtc races and other japanese races. but if you look at where a civic type r and integra type r's stand, you wouldnt think that. the honda's usually place higher than A WHOLE LOT of FR nissans and toyota's.

proving again and again that its about the driver.

Wait, I wouldn't think what? I'm really confused, and perhaps it's because you are too...

I'm not talking about Hondas and Nissans (in that post, anyway...) I'm talking about DRIVETRAINS. You show me ONE FF-layout car that can hang with a stock C5 Vette or a R34 Skyline and MAYBE I'll rethink that argument. And only MAYBE because I know damn well whatever FF car you could conceive would be HEAVILY modded... no questions asked.

The drivetrain is LIMITED. While it MAY have its performance up-sides, let's be realistic... FF was developed in Europe (France, I believe... could be wrong) to accomodate more spacious and comfortable cabins in compact-sized cars. Think about it... there's more room in the cabin if you don't have to worry about a driveshaft, differential, etc. running under the car, and the ride is much quieter in the back... make sense?

You're right that a huge portion of a car's performance comes down to driver skill. But that's an entirely subjective matter. Can you accurately rate drivers? No, not like HP and lateral Gs and such. So... let's take two hypothetical drivers: one who has mastered EVERY FF technique in the book and one who has mastered EVERY FR technique (arbitrary... substitute MR or RR where FR is) in the book and hand them top-of-the-line cars with those respective drivetrains. First of all, the FF car will probably be a souped-up Teg, while the FR car could be anything from a Hennessey (sp?) Viper to a Twin-Turbo MkIV Supra.

You do the math.

Also, I wouldn't trust JGTC, NASCAR, D1, NHRA or ANY other sanctioning-body-controlled circuit results to accurately translate expected performance to the street. These are extreme competitions, the likes of which demand modifications to cars that street drivers wouldn't, or COULDN'T, do. Also, these are "classified" races, where there are myriad rules and regulations that essentially level the playing field... take F1, for example. Do you remember when CART passed a ruling that the newer Ferrari machines had to be HEAVIER because they were so fast? I'm not familiar enough with JGTC to make a specific argument against the universal validity of its results, but I guarentee you that if you pull the system apart, you'll find ways that cars are handicapped to "enhance" sporting competitiveness. Still not convinced? Pick up the April 2004 issue of SCC and turn to page 18. Rado wrote a great article about how the NHRA first set up rules to limit the performance of WORLD Racing's Celica, then ultimately BANNED it. It was too damn fast, and no doubt made for poor sportive competition. This handicapping is why I don't take the results of such competitions out of context... it's a sport... not a Consumer Reports article.

If you are so sure that I'm way off by saying that FF cars have a diminished place in motorsports, tell me so, but show me why. Tegs and Civics might place higher than a lot of FR cars in JGTC, but which ones? And are the Tegs and Civics on TOP? What beat THEM?

[masticatingcow]

Any race stock for stock average driver I’d bet on the 240. GSRs have a poor power band and just aren't good drag cars.

I agree, take two stock cars and an average driver for each and I think I'd go with the 240. I think that an average driver wouldn't know how to hook the FF, and that the burnout on the FR would resolve itself quicker, thus giving the 240 a better launch. BUT... average drivers are hard to come by... put an experienced pilot behind both wheels (one who knows how that car wants to run) and I think it would be a tight match.

Still, that's just my $0.02, and I would have no problem deferring to 240SXer or anyone else who drags more than I do.

And the DOHC engine is nicer than the SOHC, but it's no HUGE improvement. A little HP increase, better torque, better fuel economy... reason enough that it is a better choice (IMHO) but not enough to be a huge performance upgrade. I've driven both and own a DE because it's easier on the gas, really.

[tegls1]

Wow this is becoming a better and better thread every day.Well back to my point. The 240 has it advantages over the integra and the integra has his advantages over the 240 too. Even those the 240 has alot more advantages then the Integra It dosn't mean that the integra suk. Where did you get that a GSR runs high 16s? The person that drove that car must be a bad driver. I can do better in my car. If you do not know how the drive the GSR properly you will find it slow because you cannot drive it like if it is your 240. They are totally different cars. stock 240s are not fast at all. I have beaten a couple of 240 in a stoplight battle. Just because my car if FWD doesn't mean I can get a good launch out of it. It just takes practice. Do you think the drag civics that run 7 or 8 seconds would have the same 1/4 time if you put a rookie in the drivers seat? All they would do is smoke the tire the whole way through the track it will be the same way If you give the a supped 240 also. Next time race a real driver that know what they are doing or esle it will just be another ricer in a GSR racing you with no experience or knowledge of the car. You cant say Im wrong on that.

[cys19]

what if the b18 was turbo charged? would the sr20 still be able to beat it in a drag race? both pro drivers

[gounc14]

tegls1....the difference between your car and 7-8 second drag civics is a huge set of uber soft slicks. I drove fwd the first two years I drove until I got the 240, and the difference in traction between front and rear is huge.

[masticatingcow]

what if the b18 was turbo charged? would the sr20 still be able to beat it in a drag race? both pro drivers

*Sigh* To what degree are these cars turboed? I mean, throwing a turbo system on a car doesn't yield fixed HP and torque gains... it's variable. If the Teg is WAY more powerful than the 240, then maybe. As long as you mean cars with similar power...

The simple answer to that question is YES. But the reason is more complicated: all other things being equal, let's assume assuming both have IDENTICAL power ratings (say 250whp, whatever). The laws of physics dictate that the FR car has a distinct advantage... why? Because on launch, the weight of the car shifts back, increasing the relative weight (and thus grip) on the back tires. In a FF application, a hard launch is more detrimental... the weight still rolls onto the rear tires, but the FRONT tires are the ones that need grip. In fact, enough weight is displaced to the back tires that the front tires will have LESS comparable weight (and thus grip) than if the car were cruising along at like 10 mph. <--- This is why everyone agrees that a FF car is WAY better if launched from a rolling start.

The problem only gets worse for a FF driver as power levels go up. Finding the IDEAL place on the tach to launch is hard enough on a FF car... when you add more power to the mix, even slight deviations from that ideal engine speed can cause a drastic loss of grip, resulting in the less-than-favorable burnout at launch. At some point, too much power effectively RUINS the car's ability to launch. The FR has a big advantage here because, theoretically, the harder the car launches, the greater the dynamic weight shift to the rear tires, and thus, the better the grip to transfer that power to forward motion.

[cys19]

do you think a fr with 400hp can beat a ff with 450 hp drag racing?

[cdiesel12]

better base motor to mess with, well, sorta, the KA guys will prove otherwise, but it's damn near a race motor .

:cwm27 your kidding right?

[masticatingcow]

do you think a fr with 400hp can beat a ff with 450 hp drag racing?

What do you think? Really... given the information you already know and have recently been fed, do you think so?

[cys19]

What do you think? Really... given the information you already know and have recently been fed, do you think so?

So far I know FR will have the better boost. But will the FF still be able to catch up within 1/4 miles with that extra 50 hp?

[k6kicker]

do you think a fr with 400hp can beat a ff with 450 hp drag racing?

i do, have you ever tried to launch a fwd with more then 240~ish hp...spin spin spin spin spin...while the rwd would launch like a mofo

[cys19]

damn, that's some great info! (well, for a newbie like me.) mmm, actually i have tried to launch my camry, and it did go spin spin spin lol.

[tegls1]

Heres the thing. If you are drag racing RWD is a lot better than FWD. And about the FWD beatting a RWD car with 50HP less is possible. FWD is really bad when it come to havving lots of power and tryng to launch your car. It all depends on the driver, veihicle wieght and lenght of the track. That is why FWD drag cars have traction bars and weelie bars (I don't know what you call it on a FWD car since they obviously can't do wheelies) and really soft springs in the back. What they try to do in a FWD drag car to get as much weight as possible to the front wheels is they let the rear end bottom out on the wheelie bar so it could transfer some of the wiehgt to the front. It helps alot but it is still not as good as RWD car. But that is a whole other case when it come to road racing. FWD is really good in road racing because it uses it drve wheels to turn also. RWD is good too it is just alot easier to loose control of your car around corners specially in wet or slick surface.

[masticatingcow]

But that is a whole other case when it come to road racing. FWD is really good in road racing because it uses it drve wheels to turn also. RWD is good too it is just alot easier to loose control of your car around corners specially in wet or slick surface.

Listen, what I'm about to say isn't personal. It's easier to lose control of a RWD car in road racing if you suck or don't understand how to drive a RWD car. Truth be told, there are myriad ways to correct over- and understeer in a RWD car that just don't exist in a FF format. Let me explain:

In a FR car (like the 240sx), your biggest handling problem will probably be oversteer... which is to say that during a turn, your rear tires lose some traction and begin to slide, pitching your car at a more extreme angle than the turn you are attempting. In a FF car, your main concern will be understeer, wherein your front (thus TURNING and DRIVE tires) lose grip, preventing the car from maintaining the line around a corner.

Even with moderate amounts of oversteer, a FR driver can HOLD the line with minimal adjustments (more or less throttle, countersteer, etc.) Remember that a lot of circuit drivers use oversteer as a tool to more effectively navigate turns, so it's not all bad! However, understeer IS and once it occurs, you have no choice but to brake in order to pitch the weight forward and reorient the car on a different, no doubt less desireable, line.

Remember that you're posting on a forum where most of the members drive RWD cars or at least agree that RWD is a better performing driveline. You may be right about FF cars being better on road race circuits... but you'll be hard-pressed to find someone to convince on these boards, much less agree outright.

[bobert486]

this thread is f-ing retarded. petty debates about nissan vs the rest of the world. NO! we arent superior, get over it. Stop making up random 1/4 mile numbers like 16.6 for a gsr tying to make yourself feel better.Im gonna start a new bandwagon, its called, "im ditching my 240sx for a honda again because 240sx owners are becoming ignorant"

point is, dont make up stuff, it only makes u (and other 240sx owners) look like idiots. Buy the car you get your jollies off on and stop hatin on other.

oh yea......95 green S14 se for sale now....5sp, factory lsd. no modsWTB: prelude sh

[masticatingcow]

this thread is f-ing retarded. petty debates about nissan vs the rest of the world. NO! we arent superior, get over it. Stop making up random 1/4 mile numbers like 16.6 for a gsr tying to make yourself feel better.Im gonna start a new bandwagon, its called, "im ditching my 240sx for a honda again because 240sx owners are becoming ignorant"

point is, dont make up stuff, it only makes u (and other 240sx owners) look like idiots.

:flamer <-- Is that what you were going for?

Actually, I think this thread has been a source of a lot of valid information. I think cys19 and a few others would agree. How far back are you reading? I think a lot of the 1/4 mile pass times were posted WAY BACK. After that, we started talking about FF grip issues and drag dynamics. We compared drivetrains. And lately, I'm pretty sure tegls1 and I were discussing FF and FR drive dynamics during road racing.

If you think you're shining new light on the discussion, you're not. "Nissans aren't better than everything" isn't a NEW concept, friend. Pardon my Francias, but no s***. What I'm suggesting and what you've apprently missed is the fact that MOST of the people replying to these boards are BIASED, and while they may admit the weaknesses of the 240 or other Nissans (i.e. the way a good chunk of the thread has been going) they certainly aren't going to SELL them.

I understand your frustration about BS information and public ego-stroking. I would argue that it happens on every discussion forum, NICO or not. Good luck finding a horde of automotive intellectuals here or in ANY other forum. Fact is, good info comes with the bad, and it's up to the reader to decide which he or she believes. So much of the best information on these boards is spawned out of tangents.

And I'm sure you didn't mean to sound so hostile and essentially flame every 240sx owner who posted information, valid or not, on this thread. So, in anticipation of your return to Honda, I'll just extend my best wishes. Hope you can get those tires to lock up!

[240SXer]

Wow this is becoming a better and better thread every day.Well back to my point. The 240 has it advantages over the integra and the integra has his advantages over the 240 too. Even those the 240 has alot more advantages then the Integra It dosn't mean that the integra suk. Where did you get that a GSR runs high 16s? The person that drove that car must be a bad driver. I can do better in my car. If you do not know how the drive the GSR properly you will find it slow because you cannot drive it like if it is your 240. They are totally different cars. stock 240s are not fast at all. I have beaten a couple of 240 in a stoplight battle. Just because my car if FWD doesn't mean I can get a good launch out of it. It just takes practice. Do you think the drag civics that run 7 or 8 seconds would have the same 1/4 time if you put a rookie in the drivers seat? All they would do is smoke the tire the whole way through the track it will be the same way If you give the a supped 240 also. Next time race a real driver that know what they are doing or esle it will just be another ricer in a GSR racing you with no experience or knowledge of the car. You cant say Im wrong on that.

High 16s at LACR, which is a low-traction track at 2700ft. It's all about traction. I've raced a LOT of cars and driven a LOT of cars. In a stoplight battle I'll go up againt any fwd on street tires similar weight and + 50whp and smoke them (fwd car having 50whp more than I). I run 2.1 60fts on my Kumo 712, my friend with a supercharged teg runs 2.1 on slicks.

For slower cars, FWD is good because you get more power to the ground and traction isn’t as big of a problem, but if you ever want the car to be fast. I mean FAST, like smoking zo6s/vipers fast never work with fwd. Do decide if you're picking up groceries and impressing girls or are you smoking people?

But anyway, ya, I hate FWD. Civics always try to look for the roll-on race because they know i'll walk them off the line. That's just wussy.

[240SXer]

I love my 240sx, but it's not my favorite car in the world by any means. But I like drag racing, and believe it or not I know a LOT about drag racing, in ALL sorts of cars. I've gone to the track 100s of times and seen 100s of cars race, I know what a car will do here stock with the average driver. I said the 16.6 for the GSR was out here at LACR, which isn’t a good traction track and is 2700ft. do you understand how elevation affects motors? Say what you will, but I've been a lot of cars race and raced a lot of cars and driven a lot of cars. My money would still be on the S14 on a stock-to-stock race. 1/2 the battle is the car, the other 1/2 is the driver, and a less experienced driver can do a lot better in a rwd than a fwd.

[thes14project]

I think my next project will be a FF so I can smoke all you 240's. I agree with bobert. The explosion of 240 popularity has really changed. I used to have a car that nobody wanted. I did an Sr swap and everyone was like WTF. Now, I get 5 or 6 calls a week about people interested in my car.

Truth be told, if your a good enough mechanic and driver, and has enough mone, it doesn't matter what you drive.

How many of you actually do your own mechanic work or actually know enough about other cars to actually have a reputable obeservation. Just because you own a 240 or did own an integra or did own this, that doesn't mean anything id bet you've never gotten into the car and really objectivley look at its capabilities. God damn I'm pissed off.

** Pissed off or not... telling people "f-u" isn't acceptable. **- Nismo_Freak

[240SXer]

I'm glad you're pissed. When you get that FWD car setup let me know. I'll probably have around 400whp, so i'll let you have up to 560? Assuming you're the same weight. We'll race on street tires (No DR, normal streets). And you'll see how much money you wasted.

I'm not saying the 240sx is the best car in the world. Independent suspension isnt the greatest for drag. My gripe is fwd vs. rwd. I don't care what car the fwd car is or what car the rwd car is. 240sx is by far not the best drag car. Another thing that sux about Fwd is you're really limited on the size of tire. My DRs for my 240 are 275/50R15s good luck fitting a tire that big on a fwd car (a little one like a teg or a civic).

The only KA24E I had was in my truck, only one i've ever driven actually. 132hp and 3200lb isnt pretty. So sorry if I generally think lesser of the KA24E. I know it's not true.

[thes14project]

The only reason I'm pissed is because...well look, the 240 is a great car, outta all the cars I've driven and owned it is my favorite. I came to this board a long time ago to learn some good info and meet some other enthusiast. I mean, the car was "rare" back then if there is such a thing. I didn't even know nissan made a 240 untill about a week before I got my first one. It just pisses me off that everyone is stuck talking crap about every other car out there. I mean that's why I came here, to get honest no bull, no partisan opinions and advice. I'm pissed because I see that slowly fading away. I'm pissed because this board is starting to sound like every other honda and mustang board I've ever been to,that's why I'm pissed.

Edited - Nismo_Freak

[cys19]

I've learned so much in a few weeks from just 1 post. So, as a newbie, I still think this board is incredibly awesome.

[Nismo_Freak]

People need to chillout for a sec and start posting some sense.

I do agree with alot of what S14 project had to say. The board has taken on alot of new 240 owners that love their cars as much as we do. A by-product of that is your going to get alot of biased opinions in threads like this. In fact, threads like this are a waste. All it does is spur someone to flame someone else's opinion and then it turns into a school yard pissing match.

Ever since i've been here not one of these "this car vs. a 240" threads has ended up in something positive.

Now with that being said.

FWD will always be an inferior handling design than RWD... plain and simple. Anyone who denies this fact, needs to research automotive physics. Not saying that car X can beat car Y only because it's RWD... it's just that RWD has the upper hand for several reasons. I can explain those out if you'd like.

The reasoning behind FWD is justified. It was cheaper to produce, easier to maintain, more efficient, lighter, and safer in bad weather to an in-experienced driver. For those reasons FWD is an excellent drivetrain setup as well.

[Nismo_Freak]

I'll go up against an Integra on the street any day street tire to street tire and I’ll walk all over him with him having similar or more Horsepower. The power delivery on those engines suck and they're just not good for drag racing (that's what I do so bah). Integra’s are more popular; every little ricer kid wants one. They're going to be more rare to find (or stripped) in junkyards, big deal. Those B18s are good if you want to run 14s and get good gas mileage. Soon enough my car is going to be running in the Mid 12s on pump gas and street tires. How hard would it be to get an Integra to do that? On STREET tires, like some AVS Yolks, or 712s. Not street slicks, not BF Drags or ET Streets, actual normal 40k Street tires.

Your hacking Hondas while the 5.0 owners are laughing at you for the same reasons.