wheel spacers, offsets, suspension wear

[iitywygms]

There seems to be some different opinions concerning spacers, offsets, and suspension component loads and wear.
IMO, it is the final offset that determines the suspension load. Not the method used to achieve the final offset.
Amusing that all things are equal except the rim offset.
Using my crude drawing. The picture on the left is using a zero offset rim with a one inch spacer.
Lets say this puts the centerline of the wheel 9 inches from the wheel bearing.

The picture on the right is not using a wheel spacer. It is using a rim that is one inch offset.
This also puts the centerline of the wheel 9 inches from the wheel bearing.

Now, using simple math. The moment equals the Distance times the Force.
On both setups. The distance and force are equal. Therefore, the moment is the exact same on the wheel bearing. There is absolutely no difference in the stress applied to the suspension components or wheel bearings.
Am I wrong?

[Ender_Zero]

OP, I think we agree. I too used MSPAINT hehe


Sorry for the crap quality, Photobucket won't let me upload it right and Nico tends to taper it even smaller.


Pyro, to respond to your post in the other thread, I think you are talking about the force applied to the Rim/Spokes and not the force applied to the Hub/Studs.

[omgshawn]

What are you trying to prove, that you're wrong?

Quoted from the other thread...

"...Running spacers is the same as running different offsets..."

So that would mean, by his logic, a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset.

If you really believe that' the same, then, well I have no faith in humanity.

[motoman399]

well i read the whole argument on the other thread. and i too believe it the same as the op (no offense omgshawn). the spacer just extends the offset. i may be wrong and im ok to admit it if someone proves me otherwise. i dont actually know much about offsets but in my simple mind thats how it works. continue on and ill watch

[iitywygms]

omgshawn.
Not sure what the problem is.

Running spacers IS THE SAME AS RUNNING DIFFERENT OFFSET RIMS. A rim with a 1 inch offset will put the same stress on the wheel bearing as a rim with 0 offset and a 1 inch spacer.

You said.

No, spacers make the hub 'longer', it doesn't matter what the offset the wheel, the hub(of the wheel) stays in the same place. Spacers push it out and increase the stress. Think of it as using a breaker bar to take off a stuck bolt...you add leverage further out by using a breaker bar, well the same happens to the bearings when you put the stress further out the spacers

The key words are "it doesn't matter what the offset the wheel"

The wheel offset is the key. Go back, reread the other thread. You made a issue out of the fact he was choosing spacers instead of running different offsets. You said that would increase bearing wear. AS LONG AS THE FINAL OFFSET IS THE SAME, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

in fact, you even said this yourself.
"OP. Running spacers is the same as running different offsets. I apologize for taking this thread off topic."
Which is in contradiction to what you said earlier.
Which one is it?

[omgshawn]

That's fine, people agreed with me in that thread too

[omgshawn]

Lol, dude, you said that not me, I was quoting it...hence the ""

[scotty-2-forty]

Oh for crapsake, before this turns into a reinvention of the wheel (pun, yes pun), and without charts, graphs and pictures of puppies and unicorns ......... The amount of additional bearing load wear will depend on the width of the spacer and just how far it pushes out the point of wheel's fixity. Honestly, unless you've got some insanely wide spacers and ridiculous postitive offset, premature bearing wear is negligible.

Why God, why? Why does this site constantly force me to think?! WHY?!!

[iitywygms]

Lol, dude, you said that not me, I was quoting it...hence the ""

Yeah, you right on that. My bad.

One simple question for ya. Is the following statement true? Yes or no.

It is not the method used to get the offset. It is where the final location of the tire from the wheel bearing is that determines the load on the wheel bearing. Yes or no.

[scotty-2-forty]

It is not the method used to get the offset. It is where the final location of the tire from the wheel bearing is that determines the load on the wheel bearing. Yes or no.

Depends what part of the tire you are measuring to, the tread, inner/outer sidewall, bead, etc. Sorry, not a simple yes or no answer as worded.

[iitywygms]

It is not the method used to get the offset. It is where the final location of the tire from the wheel bearing is that determines the load on the wheel bearing. Yes or no.

Depends what part of the tire you are measuring to, the tread, inner/outer sidewall, bead, etc. Sorry, not a simple yes or no answer as worded.

OMG! Look at my original drawing. The tire is located in the exact same position. One uses a wheel spacer and one does not. What is different in the tire location???

[scotty-2-forty]

OMG! Look at my original drawing. The tire is located in the exact same position. One uses a wheel spacer and one does not. What is different in the tire location???

Don't get snippity, sheesh ... nobody's a mind reader here (well, some) ... Reread what I said about where the wheel is affixed to the spacer, "The amount of additional bearing load wear will depend on the width of the spacer and just how far it pushes out the point of wheel's fixity." My point is if the mating surfaces of the wheel to spacer are pushed further out it doesn't matter if the center of the tire is the same.

[omgshawn]

It doesn't matter....What matters is when you add distance between the HUB and the WHEEL, thus creating more load

[iitywygms]

Guys, I am do not know how else to explain it.
Now matter how you space the tire from the wheel bearing. Be it a spacer, or a rim offset. The end result is what is important.

Think about it like this.
Hold a yard stick straight out in front of you with a 5 pound weight at the end. You shoulder is the wheel bearing and the yard stick is the rim.
Now, take 3 twelve inch rulers glued end to end with a 5 pound weight at the end. The first 2 rulers are spacers, the last ruler is the rim. Do the same thing. Has the load increased on you shoulder? No, the end result is the same.

Same logic applies to wheel spacers.

I can't do this anymore. Perhaps someone else can help me explain it more clear?

Sorry if I seemed offensive.

[PyR0NiAk]

It doesn't matter....What matters is when you add distance between the HUB and the WHEEL, thus creating more load

shawn has got this on point... using offset to achieve your tire position, puts the center of the wheel --0-- as to where using spacers to achieve your tire position puts the center of the wheel at -0--- Obviously, the 2nd one is going to increase the amount of stress.

[OutToWinPAHC]

Here is my thoughts on spacers...

The problems are the milled surface of the spacer and the material of the spacer. For 60 bucks a pair they build them cheap and fast. On the stock steel hub the studs are pressed into a splined hole. This is the same for a spacer with studs, but the material is different and in most cases aluminum. The aluminum splines tend to wear down faster,causing the stud spacing to float. This then leads to the studs pulling out. Think of the weight and force excerted with hard driving.

[iitywygms]

It doesn't matter....What matters is when you add distance between the HUB and the WHEEL, thus creating more load

shawn has got this on point... using offset to achieve your tire position, puts the center of the wheel --0-- as to where using spacers to achieve your tire position puts the center of the wheel at -0--- Obviously, the 2nd one is going to increase the amount of stress.

Sorry but not true. The load is still the same. It does not matter where the rim is attached to the hub.
If you attached the rim to the hub with a 5 mile spacer. The contact area (load) will still be the same as if you attached the hub to a rim with a 5 mile offset.

[iitywygms]

Here is my thoughts on spacers...

The problems are the milled surface of the spacer and the material of the spacer. For 60 bucks a pair they build them cheap and fast. On the stock steel hub the studs are pressed into a splined hole. This is the same for a spacer with studs, but the material is different and in most cases aluminum. The aluminum splines tend to wear down faster,causing the stud spacing to float. This then leads to the studs pulling out. Think of the weight and force excerted with hard driving.

This I totally agree with. Spacers are not the best solution.

[PyR0NiAk]

When you move something father away, you increase moments... Period.

[OutToWinPAHC]

I take Viagra to increase the moment as well.

I agree with say no to spacers.

[iitywygms]

When you move something father away, you increase moments... Period.

True

Now, look at my drawing at the first post. Has using the spacer moved the tire any further from the wheel bearing when compared to using the rim with the larger offset? No. The tire is in the same location in both instances. Thus, the load is the same in both instances.

[omgshawn]

The load is not transferred through the tires it's transferred through the hub. Adding spacers increases the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thus adding more leverage, which means there is more force being applied. I thought this stuff was common sense..

[PyR0NiAk]

I'm not talking about the freaking tire... I'm talking about where the wheel itself is held.

[PyR0NiAk]

The load is not transferred through the tires it's transferred through the hub. Adding spacers increases the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thus adding more leverage, which means there is more force being applied. I thought this stuff was common sense..

Me too... My entire job is based on it...

[iitywygms]

The load is not transferred through the tires it's transferred through the hub. Adding spacers increases the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thus adding more leverage, which means there is more force being applied. I thought this stuff was common sense..

The load is not transfered through the tires? Really? Then why do we have tires if they do not hold a load?

Okay, let's try another route. You have a pry bar that is 3 feet long. But you only use one foot of that pry bar.
Now, you also have a pry bar that is two feet long. But you only use one foot of that pry bar.
The place where you apply force is the same on both pry bars, right? <------ This is the same as the tire location.
If you are applying force at one foot's distance on both pry bars. Which one is applying the most force at the moment?
Neither, they are both the same. Same thing applies here.
Again, please refer to the original post with the picture. It is simply explained.

[omgshawn]

You're obviously to ignorant to agree with anyone but yourself so there's no point...

[S14Kouki10]

hold a pen or pencil at the tip with one hand like your poining at something and put pressure(weight) in the middle than do the same but to the end. there is a difference. im guessing this would be similar. anyone?

[iitywygms]

Okay, lets do this step by step. If I am wrong, then this will prove it.

Can we agree that
Distance x Force = Moment?

Also, I am enjoying this debate. If someone is getting upset, then please back away. I am not trying to attack anyone personally. Please show me the same respect.
I would hate for the mods to delete this before it is solved.

[omgshawn]

Correct S14Kouki. Same concept. When you add a spacer, or in that case move your finger further down the pen, you increase the load at pivot point, your fingers/the bearings.. Changing offsets does not change that, because you're not increasing the distance between the 2, the hub stays in the same place.

[S14Kouki10]

i agree with op, so far.