wheel spacers, offsets, suspension wear

[thomasjamal]

If I push on point B with the equal amounts of force. Will the torque be the same in both examples at point A? This is assuming that everything is completely rigid.
A is the wheel bearing.

No it won't.

[iitywygms]

If I push on point B with the equal amounts of force. Will the torque be the same in both examples at point A? This is assuming that everything is completely rigid.
A is the wheel bearing.

No it won't.

Yes, it will. draw a straight line from a to b. They are both equal. The lever arm is the same. I think even PyR0NiAk will agree with this one.

One more thing. I am talking about wheel bearings. Maybe this is where this whole thing is getting confused.

[thomasjamal]

No it won't.

Yes, it will. draw a straight line from a to b. They are both equal. The lever arm is the same. I think even PyR0NiAk will agree with this one.

One more thing. I am talking about wheel bearings. Maybe this is where this whole thing is getting confused.

Search Wikipedia for "lever"

[PyR0NiAk]

Banned link from Nico, bud.

[omgshawn]

When you add a spacer the greatest point of stress does not change....it is still the hub/bearings no matter what

[PyR0NiAk]

When you add a spacer the greatest point of stress does not change....it is still the hub/bearings no matter what, so the spacer just increases the arm and, in turn, increases the stress

Your quote could be misinterpreted so I added to your sentence..

[iitywygms]

When you add a spacer the greatest point of stress does not change....it is still the hub/bearings no matter what

I think we finally agree on something. Maybe I was getting my semantics wrong. when you space a wheel out, the stress is increased at the wheel bearing. Agreed?

[omgshawn]

[iitywygms]

When you add a spacer the greatest point of stress does not change....it is still the hub/bearings no matter what, so the spacer just increases the arm and, in turn, increases the stress

Your quote could be misinterpreted so I added to your sentence..

Agree. Now, do you agree that "offset" will also increase or decrease the arm?

[thomasjamal]

When you add a spacer the greatest point of stress does not change....it is still the hub/bearings no matter what

Now I'm confused because if that's true then it seems like the OP is right.

[omgshawn]

Omg....


The point of stress will not change, the AMOUNT of force applied to that point will change.

[iitywygms]

Omg....


The point of stress will not change, the AMOUNT of force applied to that point will change.

I agree again. Increasing the offset (lever arm) will increase the force applied to the point. (wheel bearing)

So we both agree on that.

Can we all agree that the lever arm is determined by the actual wheel offset?

[PyroTecK]

OP, I think we agree. I too used MSPAINT hehe


Sorry for the crap quality, Photobucket won't let me upload it right and Nico tends to taper it even smaller.


Pyro, to respond to your post in the other thread, I think you are talking about the force applied to the Rim/Spokes and not the force applied to the Hub/Studs.

Whats funny is that you are both generally right. It seems like one of you is saying 1+1=2 and the other one is saying no, 1+2=3.

If you take a 9 inch, 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer then the load on the wheel bearings will be great with the spacer setup. (omgshawn is right)

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be greater with the -20 setup.

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be the same. (iitywygms is also right...)

is everyone missing these two important posts?

also

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset.

i believe that in a flat spoke design w/ no dish this would be true. for example the 4lug fno1rc where they lowered the offset simply by increasing the thickness of the wheel hub.

[iitywygms]

The setup on the left is using a wack wheel spacer. The setup on the right is using a wack offset rim.
the lever arms are equal.
It does not matter how the offset is achieved. If the offset is the same, the force at the wheel bearing is the same.

[omgshawn]

[iitywygms]

Dude, I have done nothing but agree with your last couple of post. What is it about my last post that is wrong?
The lever arms are equal.

[duffman1278]

The force must be perpendicular to the distance if you want to take the moment. So use either cos or sin, depending on where you take your angle theta from.

To answer your question, assuming the horizontal distance, and vertical forces are exactly the same, then YES, there is NO difference in moment between the 2 images you have shown.

If you add a spacer and it pushes the wheel out further though, then your moment increases, even if the force is the same. Although even at a 1" spacer, the stress is negligible. If you're concerned about stresses on bearings and hubs, then you'll need to look at the stress concentrations at the hub.

[thomasjamal]

Omg....
The point of stress will not change, the AMOUNT of force applied to that point will change.

Maybe this whole discussion is just over my head (I do suck at math) but earlier you said:

Adding spacers increases the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thus adding more leverage, which means there is more force being applied.

But if the point of the stress doesn't change then I don't understand why an offset that creates the same distance from hub to contact with the ground as spacers would doesn't also add more leverage.

[S14Kouki10]

[omgshawn]

Because you are increasing the distance from the hub, to the face of the wheel..

[duffman1278]

... which means there is more force being applied. I thought this stuff was common sense..

You're an idiot for trying to make yourself look good and putting others down. It's obviously not common sense for you either.

The force does NOT!!!!! increase due to a spacer pushing the wheel out further. Only the MOMENT does.

[iitywygms]

PyroTecK. I agree with what you say.
I am not debating that a higher offset increases bearing load. A higher offset increases bearing loads. Anyone can quote me on that.
I am debating the fact that some people say using a wheel spacer to achieve a certain offset, opposed to using a offset rim, will increase the stress on the wheel bearing. You increase the load on the wheel bearing by increasing the entire wheel offset. Be it with a spacer or offset rim.

[PyroTecK]

Because you are increasing the distance from the hub, to the face of the wheel..

but wouldnt increasing the distance from the hub to the center of the wheel with a spacer be the same as increasing the distance with a lower offset?

[omgshawn]

LOL. Way to contradict yourself..idiot

OBVIOUSLY, there are people who agree with me, and people who 'somehow' agree with him


*directed to duffmom*

[iitywygms]

The force must be perpendicular to the distance if you want to take the moment. So use either cos or sin, depending on where you take your angle theta from.

To answer your question, assuming the horizontal distance, and vertical forces are exactly the same, then YES, there is NO difference in moment between the 2 images you have shown.

If you add a spacer and it pushes the wheel out further though, then your moment increases, even if the force is the same. Although even at a 1" spacer, the stress is negligible. If you're concerned about stresses on bearings and hubs, then you'll need to look at the stress concentrations at the hub.

QFT

[thomasjamal]

Because you are increasing the distance from the hub, to the face of the wheel..

Ok, I went and read several articles to try to understand this better,

and now I think I agree with you again. For whatever that's worth...

[PyroTecK]

PyroTecK. I agree with what you say.
I am not debating that a higher offset increases bearing load. A higher offset increases bearing loads. Anyone can quote me on that.
I am debating the fact that some people say using a wheel spacer to achieve a certain offset, opposed to using a offset rim, will increase the stress on the wheel bearing. You increase the load on the wheel bearing by increasing the entire wheel offset. Be it with a spacer or offset rim.

yeah... im thinking that, all things being equal, its the distance from the hub (or bearings) to the centerline of the tires contact patch that makes a difference in the stress load, regardless of how that distance is acheived.

[duffman1278]

LOL. Way to contradict yourself..idiot

OBVIOUSLY, there are people who agree with me, and people who 'somehow' agree with him
*directed to duffmom*

Agree with you how? If you're saying they agree with you about the force increasing as the distance increases then you're all wrong. That is EXTREMELY incorrect and basic engineering.

[iitywygms]

Lord thank you. It is the moment that increases. Not the force.

[omgshawn]