wheel spacers, offsets, suspension wear

[omgshawn]

You explained my point..

When changing offsets it does not change how far the hub is from the wheel face, so in your explanation moving your fingers on the pen is like adding spacers not changing offsets.

[Crazyirish]

Whats funny is that you are both generally right. It seems like one of you is saying 1+1=2 and the other one is saying no, 1+2=3.

If you take a 9 inch, 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer then the load on the wheel bearings will be great with the spacer setup. (omgshawn is right)

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be greater with the -20 setup.

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be the same. (iitywygms is also right...)

[omgshawn]

I have to disagree.

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset. You aren't taking into account that the spacers moves the wheel face AWAY from the hub, something offset does not do.

[FolkertSX]

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be the same. (iitywygms is also right...)

i don't think omgshawn agrees with this. I would believe it to be true though. but im no expert. im glad my comment sparked such a discussion though. lets try not to get mad guys, maybe we need some more opinions from other members in here.

[motoman399]

Whats funny is that you are both generally right. It seems like one of you is saying 1+1=2 and the other one is saying no, 1+2=3.

If you take a 9 inch, 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer then the load on the wheel bearings will be great with the spacer setup. (omgshawn is right)

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be greater with the -20 setup.

If you take a 9 inch 0 offset rim with a 20mm spacer and compare it to a 9 inch, -20 offset rim then the load on the wheel bearings will be the same. (iitywygms is also right...)

thats how i see it ^^

[Crazyirish]

I have to disagree.

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset. You aren't taking into account that the spacers moves the wheel face AWAY from the hub, something offset does not do.

So you have a 2 foot lever, and a 3 foot lever. If you pull on them at the end, the 3 foot lever will generate more force than the 2 foot. If you now screw a 1 foot extension onto the 2 foot lever the leverage will be equal. Physics doesn't care if the lever is one piece or two bolted together.

[PyR0NiAk]

People aren't reading entire posts before they are responding. They are EXPECTING certain responses.

Both ways will move the tire out farther, but that's not what omgshawn or myself is talking about. We're talking about the force being applied on the hub. If you use a spacer, you're creating more leverage against it. If you use offset, instead, to move your tires out, then you don't increase the leverage. (It all comes down to how far out the wheel itself is attached)

[iitywygms]

Okay, lets do this step by step. If I am wrong, then this will prove it.

Can we agree that
Distance x Force = Moment?

Please. Is this statement a fact?

[omgshawn]

What? I never said anything about 2 things being bolted together changing anything...

And that is wrong. You again are not taking into account that spacers change the distance from the wheel to the hub, where it matters. That is where the load is being applied across to the bearings.

It's simple. The further out you move the wheel FACE from the HUB, the more force is implied on the bearings. Changing offsets does NOT do that.

[PyR0NiAk]

iitywygms, I'm not trying to be a d!ck, but you are way too close minded to have a good debate with... You are too focused on being the right person, rather than, the original argument. Hence why you keep bringing up the other s***, that has already been stated.

When my entire job is balancing a 150,000+ lb aircraft I tend to get a little aggravated when you insult my intelligence on such things as weight and moments. I'm done.

[iitywygms]

What? I never said anything about 2 things being bolted together changing anything...

And that is wrong. You again are not taking into account that spacers change the distance from the wheel to the hub, where it matters. That is where the load is being applied across to the bearings.

It's simple. The further out you move the wheel FACE from the HUB, the more force is implied on the bearings. Changing offsets does NOT do that.

But this is not true. It does not matter the distance from the wheel to the hub. What matters is where the tire contacts the ground, to the wheel bearing. That is the where the force is being applied to the lever. The place where the wheel contacts the hub has no bearing on the lever arm. You are not considering the entire lever arm.

Again. Distance x force = moment.

[omgshawn]

I concur with Pyro

[iitywygms]

iitywygms, I'm not trying to be a d!ck, but you are way too close minded to have a good debate with... You are too focused on being the right person, rather than, the original argument. Hence why you keep bringing up the other s***, that has already been stated.

When my entire job is balancing a 150,000+ lb aircraft I tend to get a little aggravated when you insult my intelligence on such things as weight and moments. I'm done.

Sorry, did not mean to insult your intelligence.
Not that it matters, but I work in a room full of mechanical engineers. We design high precision measuring machines.
www.microvu.com if it matters.
Does that make me right? No.
I am sorry to see that you are so weak willed. Is running away a good answer?
Can you answer my simple question?
distance x force = moment?

One other point. If you look back through the thread, I have admitted when I am wrong, and I have agreed with other people.
I am not here because I want to argue. I am here to debate simple mechanics.
If I am wrong, then I will be happy to admit it. But until my very first post is proven wrong. I will debate.

[iitywygms]

I concur with Pyro

[PyR0NiAk]

Weak willed? No. Convincing you of the truth is like trying to teach a turtle to talk. It doesn't f*** work. You're arguing something completely different than what we're talking about, and I'm tired of trying to show you what it is we're talking about. As I said before, you're too busy trying to get people to tell you you're right to see what we're saying.

[iitywygms]

I guess that means you will not answer a simple question. Instead you choose to throw insults. Nice.

[PyR0NiAk]

Didn't insult you... Just used a simile to say that you were hard headed/stubborn.

[iandrew89]

I have to disagree.

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset. You aren't taking into account that the spacers moves the wheel face AWAY from the hub, something offset does not do.

He is right right here. It is not the same load on the bearings. The only thing that that is doing is giving you the same offset in appearance. But it is also changing the load on the bearings. If you want the offset just buy it to begin with and don't add spacers. This is how I look at it.

[iitywygms]

I have to disagree.

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset. You aren't taking into account that the spacers moves the wheel face AWAY from the hub, something offset does not do.

He is right right here. It is not the same load on the bearings. The only thing that that is doing is giving you the same offset in appearance. But it is also changing the load on the bearings. If you want the offset just buy it to begin with and don't add spacers. This is how I look at it.

Please look at my first post.

[iitywygms]

Didn't insult you... Just used a simile to say that you were hard headed/stubborn.

Does distance x force = moment?

[PyR0NiAk]

Didn't insult you... Just used a simile to say that you were hard headed/stubborn.

Does distance x force = moment?

(Here we go back to you digging for someone to tell you you're right about something..)

Arm x Weight = moment with my profession, but yes.



By using a spacer, you're changing the arm...

[omgshawn]

Why don't you answer the actual question?

By your logic, this would be correct.

"That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset."

That is clearly wrong..

[iitywygms]

(Here we go back to you digging for someone to tell you you're right about something..)

Arm x Weight = moment with my profession, but yes.

Okay, good. We agree on something and I appreciate the response. I am just looking for common ground to start from.
Now. would not the arm length be determined by where the wheel contacts the ground, and where the wheel bearing is? A straight line from where the wheel contacts the ground to the wheel bearing, right?

[PyR0NiAk]

No. I pointed this out in the other thread. We're talking about the effect on the hub so we need to start with where it connects to it. THAT is what changes the stress... Where the tire contacts the ground has no effect on that. Just like me moving the ramp up and down makes no difference on the C-130 because it's a hinged point.

[iitywygms]

No. I pointed this out in the other thread. We're talking about the effect on the hub so we need to start with where it connects to it. THAT is what changes the stress... Where the tire contacts the ground has no effect on that. Just like me moving the ramp up and down makes no difference on the C-130 because it's a hinged point.

Okay, I might be wrong. But if the tire contacted the ground 1 foot further away from the wheel bearing, no matter if I used a spacer or a crazy offset, does that not increase the load on the wheel bearing?
Again, not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

And we are talking about the wheel bearings right?

[iitywygms]

I am going to step away from this for a while. I need a life.
Am looking forward to everyone's response.

[thomasjamal]

The load is not transferred through the tires it's transferred through the hub. Adding spacers increases the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thus adding more leverage, which means there is more force being applied. I thought this stuff was common sense..

That seems to be the key argument.

The load is not transfered through the tires? Really? Then why do we have tires if they do not hold a load?

Ok, I don't know much but even I can see that you're totally missing the point of your own argument. You need to take a step back from being so invested in being right and really think about the above argument. Yes, the tires transfer the load but it is also transferred through the hub. Spacers would increase the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thereby placing the point of greatest stress further out on the studs, thereby decreasing their life and increasing the risk of problems. Wheels with offset moves the tire further out but does not increase the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface, keeping the point of greatest stress closer to the hub and further in on the studs, decreasing the stress on them.

[PyR0NiAk]

Ok, I don't know much but even I can see that you're totally missing the point of your own argument. You need to take a step back from being so invested in being right and really think about the above argument. Yes, the tires transfer the load but it is also transferred through the hub. Spacers would increase the distance between the hub and wheel mating surface thereby placing the point of greatest stress further out on the studs, thereby decreasing their life and increasing the risk of problems.

QFT

[iitywygms]

doing the same thing on both examples. If I push on point B with the equal amounts of force. Will the torque be the same in both examples at point A? This is assuming that everything is completely rigid.
A is the wheel bearing.
I am talking about the wheel bearings, not the hub.

[thomasjamal]

Here's my ghetto attempt to illustrate my point