wheel spacers, offsets, suspension wear

[PyroTecK]

most aftermarket wheels, aslong as theyre not dual lug pattern, will have a space between the holes that will allow the original studs to be kept when using spacers. folkert, just tq to spec and check them every so often.

[iitywygms]

The original point of this thread was to determine if the method used to achieve a desired offset, be it offset rims or spacers, causes any difference on the moment of the wheel bearing. (wear)

My contention is that it does not.
They both put equal moment on the wheel bearing.

Basic facts.

How do we determine the moment on the wheel bearing? Simple math.

C = Moment
B = Load
A= Distance

AxB=C

Now, we can safely say some things are known non variables.

The load is known. The load is the weight of the vehicle.
So, B is always the same.

Now A (distance) is where I believe all the confusion is.
How do we determine the distance, or length of the lever arm?

One end of the lever arm is the pivot. This would be the wheel bearing because that is what we are trying to determine the moment on. This is a fixed point on the vehicle and will not change.
Now where we apply the force to the other end of the lever arm will determine the length of the lever arm.
Notice I said where we apply the force. That is very important. I will try to explain.
Let's say you have a 10 foot pry bar and a 1 foot pry bar. If you apply force at a distance of 1 foot, and only one foot from the pivot point, the effective moment at the pivot point will be the same using either pry bar. I don't care if one pry bar is 100 feet long. If you apply force at the same distance from the pivot point using either pry bar. The effective moment will be the same using either bar.
Let's apply the above to the suspension of our car.
Where is the force applied to the lever arm on our cars?
The force is applied to the lever arm at the place where the tire contacts the ground. Not where the hub attaches to the rim, or where the stud attaches to the hub, or where the moon is in relationship to the sun. Nothing determines where the force is applied to the lever arm except where the tire contact the ground. Period.
Now, on to my original point. Let say you want to offset your tire 10 inches from the wheel bearing.
You can use a rim with 0 offset and a 10 inch spacer. OR you could use a rim with a 10 inch offset and no spacer..
Either setup will put the place where the tire contacts the ground in the exact same place.
In both scenarios, A is the same.

So if A is the same, and B is the same. Then C will always have the same answer.
The moment on the wheel bearing is always the same.

A turtle can talk.

[nissan_star]

This whole thread was autarded. You started it to argue with people and you did. Now that you un officially claimed yourself the victor, which I am sure you would have done regardless, you can jerk off with a smile on your face. Not insulting, just trying to get the facts straight.

It would be helpful to talk about camber and how that changes the actual contact point of the tire

[omgshawn]

That's why I stopped trying, there's no point. But hey whatever helps him sleep at night..

[iitywygms]

This whole thread was autarded. You started it to argue with people and you did. Now that you un officially claimed yourself the victor, which I am sure you would have done regardless, you can jerk off with a smile on your face. Not insulting, just trying to get the facts straight.

It would be helpful to talk about camber and how that changes the actual contact point of the tire

Yes, this is true. camber does change the contact point. You are absolutely right.
However, I was hammered on during most of this thread, especially during the beginning. I absorbed a barrage of insults, and and I was told that I was an idiot and could not accept an argument.
I was only trying to make my point and clear up some confusion. Hate on me if you want.
People who understand basic mechanics can appreciate this. those who cannot, will toss insults.

[iitywygms]

omgshawn, you have a nice car. you occasionally made some valid points.
You also made yourself look the fool. please take a valid engineering class.

[omgshawn]

you don't know when to stop do you dude?

[iitywygms]

you don't know when to stop do you dude?

Yes, I do, And it stops now.
As this thread progresses, you will see your error, I hope. I am done.

[omgshawn]

I can't believe how wrong I was. I'm gonna go buy some 30mm spacers instead of correct offset wheels now, because, you know, it's the same thing

[motoman399]

I can't believe how wrong I was. I'm gonna go buy some 30mm spacers instead of correct offset wheels now, because, you know, it's the same thing

its not the same thing. but it is the same load on the bearing. dude if you actually read his posts he explains it so even a 3 year old can understand. a 6 foot spacer or a 6 foot offset is going to load the bearing the same. PERIOD.. im not trying to be a d!ck but i dont know how its even an argument.

[omgshawn]

And if you read mine I explain it too, but hey, if that's what you want to think go ahead doesn't matter to me

[motoman399]

i did read yours. but i didnt see much sense in it.. can you please repeat it or quote it. (lots of posts to go back through)

[omgshawn]

So, you read his, and agree with him, but apparently I didn't make sense, so you want me to repeat it? so all the people that agreed with me I guess I didn't make sense to them as well?

This should sum it up..

That's like saying a 8" wheel with a +40 offset and a 60mm spacer will put the same amount of load on bearings that a 8" wheel and -20 offset. You aren't taking into account that the spacers moves the wheel face AWAY from the hub, something offset does not do.

[omgshawn]

And btw, I'm not going to argue this anymore. It seems that no matter what, another idiot will just come in here and start the whole thing over again. If you need me to be anymore clear then try reading the thread

[motoman399]

i read the entire thread man. i read the first thread about the 1.5" spacers. but have you thought about the 6 foot wheel spacing? its the same logic as a 1" (or what ever) spacer. as long as you achieve the same offset at the end of the day.

im going to be honest and say i need to do my reading up on offsets, not to bright in that area. but how i see it and how all of my mechanical friends see it is that it doesnt matter as long as the final offset is the same... sorry if i bursted your bubble..

[omgshawn]

No bursting here I still stand by my argument and there's people who agree with me as well

[scotty-2-forty]

you don't know when to stop do you dude?

Yes, I do, And it stops now.
As this thread progresses, you will see your error, I hope. I am done.

Nah ... you're not.

[nissan_star]

Its not that your wrong in theory, its the fact that once the wheels of low offset and the ones to use a spacer change width, all this info is wrong, in which case the spacer pushes out the contact point.

here are some points to consider:
1) saying spacers have no effect on wheel bearing stress is generalizing everyone's wheel selections into your category (ex: same 8" wide wheels with different offsets)

2) although you know how to calculate moments; force x distance, your A x B = C is not a true sum of moments for the bearing. You should account for any unknown moments for the bearing that happen anywhere on the space from the bearing out. The equation would be A x B + D = C, where D is the unknown moment.
I only say this because there could be an unknown that is different for wheels with spacers and with none. Not sure though.

3) who would actually look at 2 different sets of wheels of the same width and think, "I want the ones i need to buy spacers for, not the ones that have a low offset and fit well out of the box." I understand that a spacer might need to be added to clear other components like brakes or coilovers, but at this point I am not sure if this conversation would be relevant to them.

4) as stated above, once the width of the wheel changes (assuming same tire stretch, or poke w/e) the contact point of the tire moves. When putting a spacer on a 8" wide wheel to make it look like the fitment of a 10" wide wheel, you are pushing the contact point farther away from the bearing therefore creating more moment, based on previous formulas used by the OP.

5) if someone is shopping for wheels and looking at a wider wheel with low offset compared to a skinnier wheel that would need spacers, see #4^, saying spacers would cause no extra load on bearings is a lie.

6) again,once the wheels of low offset and the ones to use a spacer change width, all this info is null. IMO, this happens more often then someone choosing between the same sized (width) wheels with different offsets only to use spacers and achieve the offsets they didn't buy in the first place

when shopping for wheels, you have to do your own damn research, there is no cut and dry method for anything. If you do your own legwork its will feel much better when everything fits perfect, and doesn't break.

[Ender_Zero]

Its not that your wrong in theory, its the fact that once the wheels of low offset and the ones to use a spacer change width, all this info is wrong, in which case the spacer pushes out the contact point.

here are some points to consider:
1) saying spacers have no effect on wheel bearing stress is generalizing everyone's wheel selections into your category (ex: same 8" wide wheels with different offsets)

2) although you know how to calculate moments; force x distance, your A x B = C is not a true sum of moments for the bearing. You should account for any unknown moments for the bearing that happen anywhere on the space from the bearing out. The equation would be A x B + D = C, where D is the unknown moment.
I only say this because there could be an unknown that is different for wheels with spacers and with none. Not sure though.

3) who would actually look at 2 different sets of wheels of the same width and think, "I want the ones i need to buy spacers for, not the ones that have a low offset and fit well out of the box." I understand that a spacer might need to be added to clear other components like brakes or coilovers, but at this point I am not sure if this conversation would be relevant to them.

4) as stated above, once the width of the wheel changes (assuming same tire stretch, or poke w/e) the contact point of the tire moves. When putting a spacer on a 8" wide wheel to make it look like the fitment of a 10" wide wheel, you are pushing the contact point farther away from the bearing therefore creating more moment, based on previous formulas used by the OP.

5) if someone is shopping for wheels and looking at a wider wheel with low offset compared to a skinnier wheel that would need spacers, see #4^, saying spacers would cause no extra load on bearings is a lie.

6) again,once the wheels of low offset and the ones to use a spacer change width, all this info is null. IMO, this happens more often then someone choosing between the same sized (width) wheels with different offsets only to use spacers and achieve the offsets they didn't buy in the first place

when shopping for wheels, you have to do your own damn research, there is no cut and dry method for anything. If you do your own legwork its will feel much better when everything fits perfect, and doesn't break.

These arguments are NOT for justifying spacers. We all agree that spacers are not the preferable solution.

This is simply a look at the physics. Also I think you are confused, the spacer is not to make it fit like a wider wheel. The wheel width and tire stay the same for the sake of argument. the only change we are looking at is offset.

I have a question for those who still think the moment is different with an offset wheel vs a wheel with a spacer behind it:

What would happen if I welded a spacer to the wheel? for the sake of argument we'll say its now part of the wheel. Is the moment ANY different than when it was bolted? Does that make it any different from a wheel that was made like that from the factory?

I'll upload an example:


There. The first wheel is left as is from the factory. The second was a higher offset wheel at the start of its life. So; I welded on a spacer to make them the same exact EFFECTIVE OFFSET. I even drilled out the lug holes and machined the spacer material so that I can put the lugnuts on just like the wheel from the factory.

Does the one with the welded spacer put any more angular force on the bearing/hub than the one that was made from the factory with that offset?

[omgshawn]

[Ender_Zero]

I've come to the conclusion that shawn is a troll. Well played, sir.

[omgshawn]

And I've come to the conclusion you don't know what you're talking about

[Wretched]

I've come to the conclusion that shawn is a troll. Well played, sir.

[Ender_Zero]

Move along folks, don't feed the troll. He may actually contribute something to his side of the argument other than cat calls and insults if we ignore him long enough.

[omgshawn]

LOL, besides the 4 pages of my side of the argument, but yeah, I'll just keep trolling so it's all good.

And I already ate so don't worry about feeding me

You girls have fun with your spacers

[numbnuts240]

Move along folks, don't feed the troll. He may actually contribute something to his side of the argument other than cat calls and insults if we ignore him long enough.

so this pot f*** this kettle right....

here's the course of this thread:

facts
facts
insult
whine
insult
insult
fact
insult
insult w/ fact
scotty
reiteration of previously posted fact
^
insult
scotty
insult
insult
whine
insult

this was worse than a political debate.

[Ender_Zero]

It doesn't matter....What matters is when you add distance between the HUB and the WHEEL, thus creating more load

This is your argument. A statement with no evidence to back it up (which also happens to be wrong in the context of this discussion) and no scenarios in which you illustrate your argument to make clear that which you state.

I specifically addressed this. With a spacer that is now part of the wheel, what happens in your odd little physical world? Is that like dividing by 0? The two wheels (due to my awesome hypothetical aluminum welding and grinding skills) are now virtually identical. There is no way you can say that one wheel puts more load on the bearing than the other.

[omgshawn]

Uh, nothing happens? It's the same s***. They are no where close to identical, one has a spacer welded to it and the other is a correct offset, one has a longer hub mating surface and one is stock.

Are you sure you're not retarded? I specifically said LONGER, not 2 pieces, not welded together...the DISTANCE

Sorry I didn't draw up some crap in MS paint to prove my point.

[scotty-2-forty]

[so this pot f***** this kettle right....

here's the course of this thread:

1-facts
2-facts
3-insult
4-whine
5-insult
6-insult
7-fact
8-insult
9-insult w/ fact
10-scotty
reiteration of previously posted fact
^
11-insult
12-scotty
13-insult
14-insult
15-whine
16-insult

this was worse than a political debate.

I numbered your historical (hysterical?) traceability ... but Numb, I think you miscounted unless you think my first reply (#8) was an insult. Maybe a tiresome response as a direct result of uneccessary debate brought on by another thread in which a thought of minor significance bloomed into an absolute clusterfook of self-knighted professors of mathematical wizardry which have effectively made my brain swell in utter disbelief and brought on crimes against humanity; but not an insult by any means. ...... BREEEEEATH ...... Now, where exactly were you starting your count from?

But come to think of it, maybe this entire thread is just a figment ... of whose imagination I don't know.

[Ender_Zero]

Uh, nothing happens? It's the same s***. They are no where close to identical, one has a spacer welded to it and the other is a correct offset, one has a longer hub mating surface and one is stock.

Are you sure you're not retarded? I specifically said LONGER, not 2 pieces, not welded together...the DISTANCE

Sorry I didn't draw up some crap in MS paint to prove my point.

I'm sure I'm not. The DISTANCE is the same. In my hypothetical example I've bored out the lug valleys of the wheel to look and function exactly the same as the one from the factory. Your inability to see that is relevant to your wrongness.

We'll go backward then to prove it:


Say I have two of this exact rim. I shave 2mm of aluminum off the back of one, (just enough to not touch the part that the lugnut seats on the other side) and run a 2mm spacer behind it, and the other one I don't touch. I install both on my car. How are they exerting different forces? They are the same distance from the hub, only one has a removable material in between. This is why effective offset is all that matters. How you reach the effective offset is not relevant to the bearing.