What would you pay for a Supercharger kit?

[240Knightrider]

Eaton twin screw

[7anshin]

Nice Are we going to have to change our beautiful hoods for this to fit? I would love to have my car look stock.

Thanks for working on this project, and be sure to keep us updated. I can't wait to see it actually on a ka24de. I'm excited.

[240Knightrider]

ive actually been thinking about that a lot in the last two days, and might change the design so you guys wont have to change it...

Im working on that but im not promising... but probably gonna have to include a oil filter relocation kit....im not putting that sc anywhere near that manifold. ill keep you up to date

[scotttak]

hey hows it coming along??? im very interested in a supercharger especially if its carb legal. i just barely passed the smog test (intake, exauhst, underpulley) and my timing was 9 degrees advanced, dunno how it happened since i changed it back to stock but w/e
Modified by scotttak at 3:36 PM 2/5/2006

[240Knightrider]

Its coming along. had a few set back with having to replace my whole front end suspension..but thats been pushed out the way. We have been doing a lot of measurements. Trying to make it fit perfect. The guy im getting to fab the parts was waiting on a nice piece of machinery to start. He got it last week so hopefully at the end of march I can start testing with the dyno and track times

[GrilledCheese33]

Its coming along. had a few set back with having to replace my whole front end suspension..but thats been pushed out the way. We have been doing a lot of measurements. Trying to make it fit perfect. The guy im getting to fab the parts was waiting on a nice piece of machinery to start. He got it last week so hopefully at the end of march I can start testing with the dyno and track times

sweet! I can't wait, please make vids for us to see, I wanna see a ka-r in action before I decide if i want to buy one or not

[tloof]

Someone mentioned earlier in this post that it might be easier to mount a SC on the SOHC KA24E rather than the DOHC KA24DE, and they are right!Perhaps my supercharging project should be of interest to many of you in this forum.

I have been planning a supercharger conversion for awhile now on the single cam KA24E engine that I swapped into my '85 Nissan 720 pickup 7 years ago. At the time I used a '95 truck variant of the KA24E with an '89 240SX intake manifold & remote mass air flow meter swapped onto it (the truck block is required to fit in the 720 chassis due to its rear sump oil pan, and the 240SX intake actually fits better in the 720 than the Hardbody truck intake...+ it was good for an additional 6 hp over the truck intake system).

Anyway, for an even greater power increase I later decided I was going to eventually convert to a twin cam KA24DE from the '98 up Frontier truck (once again the use of the truck version of that engine block is required to fit in the 720 chassis) that I would also convert to 240SX status with the use of the more aggressive 240SX cams & intake system. After a good long hard look at what all was required & the costs to convert over to the twin cam version of the KA24 engine, I thought about just supercharging the single cam KA24E that I already had swapped into it, since that would make way more power than a NA twin cam KA24DE engine would make anyway. I looked at using the M90 Eaton blower from a '90-'95 Ford Thunderbird (although it is really a bit too large for the 2.4L size of the KA24 series engines), & even aquired one for $150 for just this purpose but eventually ruled it out as a good choice. As it turns out the single cam KA24E actually has a better intake manifold layout for bolting on an Eaton supercharger than the twin cam KA24DE engine does. This can be done by eliminating the top plenum with a custom made plenum that the Eaton blower can be bolted onto, and then some sort of custom rear inlet duct made to bolt the throttle body, remote recirculation valve, & idle air controller onto. Since the single cam 240SX KA24E lower intake runners come off the head by running downward at first & then turning up to run to the top plenum, this idea is a very workable one (on the otherhand, the twin cam 240SX KA24DE intake does just the opposite, so it is virtually impossible to mount a supercharger on it without making an entirely new custom intake which would cost lots of money & time to make!!!).

I later saw the M62 Eaton blower than comes on the '01-'04 Nissan Frontier 3.3L V6's, and realized that it is absolutely PERFECT for the KA24E conversion, as it eliminates alot of the fabrication problems that the Ford Thunderbird M90 blower presented! To start with, it is just the right size for any 2.4L engine since it is an M62 instead of a M90 Eaton blower. It also has a built-in recirculation valve, as well as a built-in rear inlet section that has a mounting flange for the air inlet on the left side of the blower case 90 degrees from the centerline of the engine(as mounted on the 3.3L V6 it comes off of). Not only that, but it has a bit of internal plenum space already built into the bottom of the blower case casting, and has external mounting bosses on the case that allow bolting the case down to a flat plate from the top side of the blower itself. This allows a VERY simple 1 1/2"-2" thick aluminum plate that is milled out about 3/4"-1 1/4" deep in its center section (to form a bit more plenum volume) to be cut out and mounted directly to the KA24E's in-line runner lower intake manifold, and in turn allowing the Frontier's M62 Eaton blower to be bolted to this aluminum plate such that the stock drive pulley lines up with the outermost drive pulley on the crankshaft dampner. Another possibility is to simply use the upper intake plenum that comes on the Frontier 3.3L V6 that the Eaton M62 blower bolts to (it is only about 1 1/2" tall), and weld a 1/2" aluminum flat plate to it and then drill it for the same bolt pattern and port size & layout as the KA24E's lower intake manifold (that is what I am doing now since I now have a Frontier 3.3 blower & upper intake that I bought from a core dealer). Since the blower case itself already has an integral recirculation valve built in to it, and the back of the case already has a 90 degree inlet built into the casting, then only a special inlet adapter needs to be made from a flat aluminum plate that the throttle body & idle air controller (from the stock 240SX) can bolt to. This would allow the air inlet with mass air flow meter to come in from the drivers side and cross over the top rear of the KA24E engine and then enter the blower thru the throttle body via some sort of 45 degree inlet elbow.

Now, it is very simple to drive the blower by changing out the stock bolt-on drive pulley on the crankshaft dampner (the one that normally drives the power steering pulley) with a custom made 6 groove serpentine pulley (I had one a custom 6 groove one made for only $90), and then relocating & replacing the power steering pump to serve as an idler pulley for the bower drive belt onto the drivers side of the engine. I have found that it is best to use a power steering pump from an Altima as it already has a 6 groove pulley and is also oriented correctly for both the inlet & discharge hoses due to it being mounted on the same side of its engine (same as I propose to relocate to on the KA24E engine). Of course that is the toughest part of this conversion, as a special custom bracket is required to be made to mount this power steering pump over the top side of the KA24E's distributor, but as it turns out it isn't actually too bad to accomplish.

The only other mods required for this supercharger conversion would be to the ECU & fuel injection system. Currently I plan to upgrade to 370cc injectors operated by a reprogrammed JWT ECU, and a larger capacity Wallbro fuel pump (if there is a better & cheaper alternative tahn the JWT ECU I would appreciate any of you on this site letting me know what it is!!!). I expect a final power output somewhere around 210-220 hp at the crank @ 6 psi total boost without intercooler. With a custom intercooler made to fit into the adapter plenum that bolts to the lower intake (that may be possible, but isn't planned for at this time), it might produce about 250-260 hp @ 9-10 psi. The entire cost for this conversion is right at $1000 for everything at this time!

Too bad the intake manifold design of the KA24DE doesn't allow the same type of swap, because it would be good for mybe an additional 15 hp or so. Anyway, in my opinion the single cam KA24E is actually the best one to supercharge, and the twin cam KA24DE the best to turbocharge due to the physical arrangement of the stock intake manifolds. Personally I think a supercharged engine is WAY better on the street than a turbocharged one since it has immediate boost down low in the RPM range thus giving more oomph off the line and through the mid range.

[Dano]

I'm still following this... lurking...

-Dan

[SimpleEnigma]

Now that I think about it.....that was a really good observation....kinda makes me wish i had a SOHC instead of the DOHC.

That setup you just described doesnt sound too difficult to fab up, and for a $1000, that is a really good deal too.

This is really interesting...almost makes me not want to build a High Comp NA motor, just so when the S/C project comes to a head and somebody starts producing a kit, i can get one!

[240sHorTy]

tloof, some very interesting work there. I would have to agree with the KA24E being a better candidate for this at least for ease of installation.

At 6 psi non-intercooled, your delta temp will be at 100 degrees farenheit. On a hot summer day you'd be looking at ballpark 200 degree intake temps. Being in Houston, maybe more.

I have an m62 mated to my KA24DE currently and have just begun testing it. It is not yet intercooled and it is running between 8 and 10 psi. My delta temps for the current pressure and speed peak at 160 to 165 degrees farenheit. Testing at under 40 degrees ambient temperature, I am pretty sure my car was beginning to detonate at 4K rpms and higher. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. My deltas @ 40 degrees = your deltas @ 100 degrees, given 6 psi of boost (roughly). So if I am detonating now in the cold, your setup will likely detonate in the summer, even @ only 6 psi. Of course, you could back off your timing even more than I have.

This testing was done at ~15 degree base timing with 93 octane pump gas with an air/fuel ratio conservatively rich at 10.0 to 10.5. Needless to say, I've got an FMIC on the way.

I'm glad to see the interest and work being done on the different supercharging projects for the KA. With all the different engine swap and turbo options for our cars, I think the supercharger has something very unique and very cost effective to offer. The cost that I have put into mine thus far would make it rival even the cheapest junkyard turbo setup as far as dollars per horsepower gained. Of course there is a significant time investment involved, but if you look at it as a challenge and a hobby, that doesn't really matter much.

I look forward to updates from tloof and 240knighrider on what kind of results and what kind of setups you can produce. Keep it coming.

-Steve

[240sHorTy]

Sorry to double post, but this is not regarding the same topics.

I was just looking back at the last page of posts. Some people...

This kit does not have to compete on an exact horsepower per pound of boost level with the turbos. There WILL be a market for this kit if it proves successful, reliable, and cost effective. From what I see there is a large void in the options for the 240sx. You either have to piece together your own turbo kits to be cost effective or pay for the overpriced aftermarket kits that are available. I sometimes wonder why we don't have something similar to the Greddy Miata Turbo Kit, which is priced around 1200. Not the best quality, but a good, affordable starter kit. To my knowledge, we don't have anything like that in the 240 community. Engine swaps usually cost 3k and up. So if you could make a 'kit' of some sort that could cost perhaps under the 2k mark, you would have very little competition in that price range.

There are ALOT of people interested in the 200 to 300 horsepower range and there is no reason why a supercharger kit cannot provide that (or even more for that matter). Couple this with the desire for linear, off idle power and the fact that many people are not willing to put in the time and/or have the tools and knowledge to piece together a custom setup and I see a decent pool of potential customers.

Alot will depend on results and the reaction of the first recipients of the product. Given a favorable response, the users and the forums will create a somewhat self marketing product.

Given the interest I have seen in my project (which I haven't even really shown yet, save a couple of preliminary pics), I'd say there is alot of interest or at least curiousity in the idea.

In short, you don't have to buy it; you don't have to even like it. But don't sh*t on the man for trying to bring a very unique product to the table. Most of the response so far though seems to be positive. I for one hope it turns out well.

-Steve
Modified by 240sHorTy at 7:25 PM 2/6/2006

[tloof]

240sHorTy,

From the Magnuson website charts for the M62 blower I actually figured that I would get closer to a 120 deg F delta at 6 psig of boost rather than the 100 deg F rise you mentioned, so yes you are correct that in the summer down in Houston I will see temps slightly above 200 deg F. But most OEM manufacturers that use the Eaton blowers on their vehicles do NOT intercool them (such as the GM 3.8 V6 & the Ford Lightning 5.4 V8), so they must be seeing similar temps without any detonation problem...or am I mistaken about that? I was under the impression that if you kept the boost limited to no more than about 6 psig with the Eaton blower that you could get about a 35-40% power increase without worries of detonation, but apparently that may NOT be the case for some engines? I wonder if the SOHC KA might be better for avoiding such detonation due to it having a lower compression ratio of 8.6:1 vs the 9.5:1 that the DOHC KA has that you are using? (another reason why the SOHC KA might be a better candidate for a supercharger than the DOHC KA!).

By the way, what are you using for a fuel management system? Are you using an FMU with stock injectors, or have you changed out to a reprogrammed ECU with higher capacity injectors? If you do have a reprogrammed ECU what brand did you go with, and what was the cost of it? I originally was going to go with a reprogrammed JWT ECU, but they want over $600 for it alone and won't guarantee that it will work for my application. Right now I only have about $350 invested in the whole conversion excluding the reprogrammed ECU, upgraded injectors, and Walbro pump that I still need to get to finish! I need some advice from some of you out there where I can get 370cc injectors that will fit the SOHC KA's stock injector rail if possible, and the cheapest reprogrammed ECU that I can get that will work for this setup.

Let me know if any of you know!!

[240sHorTy]

Ok, as long as you've looked into the stuff. I'm not saying it can't be done without an intercooler. The m62 I'm using is the slk230 one. I believe it is intercooled in that application. I have seen it used without an intercooler too. Not sure what psi and compression though.

My setup:

SAFC2- Around $300. Piggyback fuel management. Not the best, but it works fine.370cc injectors- Watch the classifieds on NICO, Zilvia, KA-T, FA. Paid 100 for mine @ about 10K miles on them. Off a Turbonetics Altima Kit. Same as SR injectors. Direct fit replacement for KA. Assuming sohc is the same.Zietronix ZT-2 Wideband- I wouldn't feel safe boosting without one, but it can technically be done.Blow thru MAF setup. Bypass valve: 25mm XSPower. I recommend larger. Gauge spikes to 20psi on shifts.

Cheapest fuel control = hacked MAF. Probably $10? give or take.Cheapest way to control fuel AND timing = BikiRom. Around 250 shipped I believe. I was going to do this, but the Group Buy took too long. You have to tune yourself, but it is cheaper and you can change it anytime.

As you can see, I've not cheaped too much on the engine control and tuning side of things. The savings is in the fabrication for me.

I just stumbled across this: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a....htmlSomeone else trying this out. I haven't read it yet.


Modified by 240sHorTy at 12:22 PM 2/7/2006

[tloof]

240 sHorTy,

The 370cc injectors you are using on your DOHC KA (that also fit the SR) are side feed types vs the top feed type that the SOHC KA uses. I have yet to find any 370cc top feed injectors that will fit the stock SOHC KA fuel rail. According to JWT they use aftermarket 55lb/hr injectors that they modify slightly to fit the stock SOHC KA fuel rail for the SOHC KA's that are turboed, but to do so requires changing out to a '93 Ford Cobra MAF unit since that is what they have used for the reprogrammed ECU they supply for boosted SOHC KA's. The injectors cost $110 apiece (includes a $10 per injector modification cost) new, and the Ford Cobra MAF unit costs $330 new. Since the reprogrammed ECU that JWT sells is $595, the total upgrade costs for the entire setup amounts to $1365 alone (excluding the supercharger & any mounting bracketry).

On the otherhand, if a DOHC KA is used you can get some low cost used 370cc side feed injectors from the '95-'96 300TT ZX, and use the stock DOHC KA MAF unit for use on a supercharged or turbocharged application with JWT's reprogrammed DOHC KA ECU that can support up to about 270 RWHP total. The overall cost for that setup (minus the supercharger & bracketry) is only about $700 total or about half what the SOHC KA setup runs. Of course the only problem here is there is no good intake manifold available for the DOHC KA to allow conversion to a supercharger like the SOHC 240SX KA has, so the SOHC KA is still the better way to go if a supercharger is desired vs a turbocharger...damn the luck!!

Anyway, am I being misled by JWT, or are there some OEM 370cc top feed injectors available somewhere for a reasonable cost used that will fit the stock SOHC KA fuel rail that in turn will enable me to stick with the stock KA MAF unit? Also, is the BikiRom controller you mentioned a much better way to go over the reprogrammed KA ECU from JWT, and if so how much trouble is it to program since that has to be done by the user? Does the BikiRom use the stock KA ECU connector or do you have to cut & splice all the wiring in the KA's engine harness to attach it to the BikiRom ECU?

Thanks for any info that you or any others on this website can give me!!

[GEO]

video's?

[way2fast]

hey tloof,

check these guys out, http://www.witchhunter.com. if an inector exists that will fit into the sohc fuel rail i imagine he knows about it. if that doesnt work, what about putting a dohc side feed rail onto a sohc manifold?

[240sHorTy]

video's?

If that was directed at me, I've got my transmission down to change the clutch out tomorrow morning. Better part of a week for break in. I'll take a couple road trips. Then I'll see about vids/dyno.

Tloof, Bikirom is not really better than a JWT or Enthalpy tune. It is effectively the same thing, only tuned by you. It is only as good as your tuning skills, so not for everyone. When you pay JWT, you are paying mostly for their tuning ability. When you buy Biki, you are paying for a tuning solution and the rest is up to you. You must solder it onto your stock ECU, or pay someone to solder it for you.

-Steve

[Katugly]

This thread is very nice ... bout time more people think outa the box

[Red coupe]

So have we seen pictures yet?! the only part of the brakets that would be particularly useful in stealing your design is the measurements and we cant really get those from pictures!Until I see pics Im calling on the supercharger kit...

[GrilledCheese33]

So have we seen pictures yet?! the only part of the brakets that would be particularly useful in stealing your design is the measurements and we cant really get those from pictures!Until I see pics Im calling on the supercharger kit...

[scotttak]

hey hows the supercharger coming along

[s13satch]

I am extremely interested in a baseline supercharger kit. I was planning on having my motor rebuilt this summer and throwing an extra $1075 for JWT cams ($575) and Arias 10.7:1 pistons ($500). But if I can get a supercharger kit for $1500 I would much rather go that route.

[sicride]

Looking for a full out update.. Projected time of completion, cost, delivery time, parts, reliability, and approx power output.

If all is well I would possibly avoid the SR20 swap this summer for the supercharger kit. I'd much rather have a supercharged KA24DE since that has always been a dream of mine.

Do you think 250whp will be possible with this supercharger kit, leaving the block/heads/cams stock? If so I'm sold under $5k. I need a bolt on cause I'm not as knowledgeable as I would need to be to part this shizzy together and fabricate the kit myself.

[240Knightrider]

Hey, Ive put it on hold since Im getting laid off in the next month. I just have to buy the injectors and the pump. But thats $700 im waiting just in case I need it for something else. Im working on the website for it, ill let you know when its up.. whats your email and ill email you it when its done. Probably wont be done by Christmas but hopefully I find a job and it can happen. BUT I WILL DO IT...IT WILL HAPPEN....

[scotttak]

nice...very nice. hopefully by then ill have enough money to buy the supercharger kit lol...i am so unemployed.

[240Knightrider]

yeah me..too as of two weeks from now. I get my letter today. Im glad im ill be finished with me resume today.

[hybrid_flyer]

Hey, Ive put it on hold since Im getting laid off in the next month. I just have to buy the injectors and the pump. But thats $700 im waiting just in case I need it for something else. Im working on the website for it, ill let you know when its up.. whats your email and ill email you it when its done. Probably wont be done by Christmas but hopefully I find a job and it can happen. BUT I WILL DO IT...IT WILL HAPPEN....

send the kit to me in cali and i'll buy the pump and injectors and test it

[240Knightrider]

pump is already in my car lol....damn lay off

[JesusLikesKFC]

job hunting is not alot of fun.

[240Knightrider]

nope, I have an interview tomorrow. But I have no idea what my position would be...

I got offered a job at 7.25 an hour but wow...going from 17.44 down to that again Im just not sure I can. I wouldnt have any play money at the end of the month'