Re-Tuning G35 engines to run on lower Octane

[rn79870]

Jacko, do you talk/write like this all the time? What the heck is cognitive dissonance?

I think it's psychobabble for personal conflict from talking the talk but not walking the walk. That may not be scientifically accurate, but I think it's close.

[!979TransAm]

Jacko I am a little confused by your explanation. Mainly because the two solids we are talking about here (clutch and flywheel) should not be "interacting" or slipping enough to create heat to burn the clutch.

Now if they were slipping against eachother it would heat up for sure and pressing in the clutch would help no doubt there.

My point is the arguement seems pointless considering the idea is elementary and the problem of clutch slipping at high speed should not occur.

Changing gears, electric cars could be sweet to if made affordable with good effeciency and low charge times. Course you have to remember the power they are getting to charge the car is produced in ways that still generate green house gases. I personally lean towards nuclear power plants as helping to solve problems.

[Beezer]

and here I thought I was of average intelligence.

[Sentientbydesign]

In the midst of all this argument (sadly to say between a certain newer member and a group of older members), someone asked about improving fuel economy on a low budget.

Here is what I have to offer:

I do not have MPG numbers yet as I'm still on the first tank of gas, BUT I have noticed a difference.

This past week I installed a Blox Plenum spacer and my wife cleaned out the plenum for me (It was very grimy. I still blame the K&N oil. Please don't start arguing with me regarding the oil).

I can't say if it's the plenum being clean or the blox spacer, but throttle response was much improved and fuel economy seemed to improve as well. I'm getting around the same or slightly better fuel economy and driving much more aggressively. That leads me to believe that driving more conservatively would show better gains similar to before the mod.

Running smaller lighter wheels will help improve fuel economy.

Replacing the God awful intake should also help things (btw, I was disgusted by the intake design when I did the Blox install. The G-tube is far from smooth inside and has that unnecessary "bottle" attached to the bottom of it. That combined with the accordion tube leaves alot of room for improvement.)

Driving style will make the biggest improvement. Don't be in a hurry to accelerate and don't jump on your brakes unless you have to. When on the highway, use a buffer and try to maintain your speed without accelerating or decelerating too fast. I saw a 3 mpg difference by using that technique and reducing my speed from 80+ to 70-75.

[rn79870]

Honda has another idea. A fuel cell car. Available soon in selected markets.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

[telcoman]

Jacko, do you talk/write like this all the time? What the heck is cognitive dissonance?

He listens to George Bush speak

[crzycav86]

HAHA.

Is this guy for real?

jacko comes in out of nowhere saying "i could have been a race car driver.. but mommy wanted me to get an education". what's your background then? the first advice i take is from the person with the right credentials. the second person i take advice from is one with a reliable track record. you seem to have none of the above. ...shoulda been a race car driver. LOL

[lovinmyG]

Hey thanks man...

That was me asking about inexpensive ways to improve gas mileage. I didn't know that by asking that question, it would start WWIII! Ha! You guys are great though and I enjoy reading your post. It's just that I am new to all of this and new to owning an Infiniti. I DON'T know a lot about the mechanics of cars, how they run, what type of oil is best, etc...

But I do know that I love the way the G35 looks, sounds, runs and drives!

I guess you can say that I am on here to learn from you guys and to use this forum as a resource!

Again, thanks!

[Sentientbydesign]

Wow, no offense Jacko, but you're starting to remind me of a very famous race car driver. He went by the name of...RICKY BOBBY!



Simply put without a bunch of nonsense physics and chemistry explanations that are full of practical application holes and misunderstandings by the arguers, your clutch shouldn't be slipping while driving. If it is, there's something wrong.

Metal is a better conductor of heat than air, that's why heatsinks are made of metal. If air was so great at removing heat by itself, then heatsinks, radiators and the like would not have been invented.

Also, most liquids are better head conductors than air as well. This is simply because of the desity of the material. More molecules means more heat can be absorbed.

[C-Kwik]

C-Kwik:

I am not going to beat a dead horse with you. I ma glad you stuck only to the physics portion of your argument, and not the heat trasfer portion and chemistry portion. I will grant you that the facts you present as fas as density and thermal conductivity is correct. However, you have failed to describe your findings in terms of heat transfer.

I don't follow you as thermal conductivity relates quite highly to heat transfer. In particular, conductive heat transfer.

First of all, thermal conductivity leads to either cubic expansitivities for gases or linear expansivities for metals. When two pieces of metals or solids are interacting, heat is genrally trasferred between the two metals/solid, and heat is dissipated in either direction of the two friction filled metals or solids. To stop heat from moving by conduction through both metals/solid, seperating both metals so that air or a gas either naturally aspirated or through forced convection (much better technique), is used to dissipate the heat away from both metals.

Expansivities? I don't think that's actually a word. But it sounds like you are trying to describe thermal expansion. Which has no relevance in this discussion.

Friction certainly has a place here, but your application of it (If I am interpreting what you are saying correctly) is off. Friction in that of itself does not generate heat. There needs to be a net force of more than zero for heat to be generated. Think of it this way. If you park a car on a hill, the parking brake is set. The car remains stopped as there is frictional force between the tires and the ground. No heat is generated here as the net force on the car is zero. On the other hand, if you were to drive along at 30 mph and yank up the parking brake locking the tires, the car would begin to decelerate due to the frictional forces between the ground and the tires. The energy kinetic energy from the movement of the car is converted to heat, sound, and perhaps mechanical energy that begins to tear off molecules of rubber.

This applies to clutches as well. When a clutch is fully engaged, the net force is zero as the flywheel and pressure plate are (should be) moving at the same speed. When partially engaged, the clutch disc will be rubbing against the pressure plate and flywheel, generating heat because there is a net force other than zero.

So, however, poor the heat transfer charcteristics of air is, matters little to the extent that the air truncates the dissipation of heat either way between two solids.

My argument here is twofold. A flywheel typically represents a considerable amount of mass (20 lbs in most small cars and something like 30 on the G35). As a result, it functions effectively as a heat sink. It would take a considerable amount of energy to heat it up significantly (a least to a point where it starts to affect/degrade performance). However, the local temperature at the surface of the flywheel and clutch disc can be overheated with relative ease if one tried to do so (or drove very poorly). As the clutch disc is relatively light and uses a a composite of materials whose average density is fairly light, it tends to hold little heat energy. As such, allowing the clutch disc and flywheel to remain in contact would reduce the local temperature of the clutch disc effectively while the flywheel's overall temperature is affected by only a small amount. The only way your argument can hold water is if the clutch disc and flywheel were at the same temperature, in which case convection could not occur.

But the problem is that your flywheel should never reach or even come close to such a high temperature that would cause a problem with its operation. Therefore its a moot argument to make.

Secondly, your argument fails to show that the most effective way for metals to dissipate heat during a heat transfer process is by contact with a fluid. A fluid is any substance that has viscosity and can exert pressure. This includes gases and liquids. Thus, the more abundant fluid to aid in the effective heat transfer when cooling solid substances is air. It occurs naturally.

Convection involves movement of the fluid itself as a medium for heat transfer. But it does not occur independently. At the surface And to some extent throughout the volume of air) conduction will also occur. Molecules in air are quite far apart. Molecules in liquids are closer but still relatively far apart. Solids are quite tightly packed. This is very evident by simply looking at the density of substances in various forms. That said, heat is simply the result of excited electrons that move faster. Conduction occurs as these electrons collide with electrons from other atoms causing them to move faster as well.

While I take you explanations seriously, one is not truely compelled by them. And then, I thought we were done with this argument. So, you are unable to let sleeping dogs lie. And you feel a strong urge to continue to beat a dead horse. Well, to each his own.

We were done according to whom? You? As far as I can tell, the thread was closed due to poor behavior, a new thread was started regarding the closure of the thread and then it was merged with the old thread with a warning to play nice. I do not know what comments were made and by whom. I don't see why this discussion can't continue as long as everyone remains mature about it.

I would still love to hear your chemsitry portion of your explanations. Of course, I expect you will study hard to provide a good explanantion. Nonetheless, nice attempt. If I had to give you a grade for your physics, I would assign a greade of 6 out of 10, because you have not satisfactorily provided a robust explanation for the heat transfer process. Read my previous comment again, and read my present comment, and you will come to have a good understanding of heat transfer. I won't even bother you with the mass transfer portion of this whole deal.

Much of the discussion we are having at the atomic level is considered chemistry. So I'm not sure what you mean by "chemistry portion." Frankly, chemistry and physics do not exist in vacuums (except maybe in theory). They are intertwined in nature, It is no different in a car.

I'll end this post with a challenge to you, since you are so critical of the info I post. If you are right and I am wrong, please feel free to provide a technical explanation. I am all ears.

[W661335PF]

Jacko, do you talk/write like this all the time? What the heck is cognitive dissonance?

This should explain it w/o too much psychobabble: theory invented by Leon Festinger's (1954) that basically states that people often will hold two incompatible cognitions or beliefs and the only way to reduce tension or the "cognitive dissonance" between the two is to change the behavior or change the attitude or integrate both into something less tension/dissonance producing.

For example, we know that our very low mpg cars produce green house gases and consumes fuel at a much higher rate than a Smart car or Prius. How we justify the decision to buy the car (for some of us this is a significant issue) anyway willreduce the tension between competing thoughts (if they ever existed). Another close example- most people who smoke know smoking is a bad habit. Some rationalize their behavior by looking on the bright side: They tell themselves that smoking helps keep the weight down and that there is a greater threat to health from being overweight than from smoking.

Well, finally someone said something I knew something about.... and since credentials were raised as a rationale for why one should be believed, mine--- a shrink!!! And I bet there are attorneys, insurance reps, mechanics, ministers, used car salespersons and other professionals here to. Point being---- for all our apparent knowledge demonstrated here, still we remain ignorant beyond the most basic stuff as evidenced by Thomas Kuhn's paradigm shift model and Hegel's triad-- a thesis eventually produces an antithesis which results in a synthesis. The synthesis becomes the new thesis which produces a new antithesis which results in a new synthesis, etc., etc., etc. Bon apetit!

Soooo, what was the original question for this thread after all????????

[telcoman]

This should explain it w/o too much psychobabble: theory invented by Leon Festinger's (1954) that basically states that people often will hold two incompatible cognitions or beliefs and the only way to reduce tension or the "cognitive dissonance" between the two is to change the behavior or change the attitude or integrate both into something less tension/dissonance producing.

For example, we know that our very low mpg cars produce green house gases and consumes fuel at a much higher rate than a Smart car or Prius. How we justify the decision to buy the car (for some of us this is a significant issue) anyway willreduce the tension between competing thoughts (if they ever existed). Another close example- most people who smoke know smoking is a bad habit. Some rationalize their behavior by looking on the bright side: They tell themselves that smoking helps keep the weight down and that there is a greater threat to health from being overweight than from smoking.

Well, finally someone said something I knew something about.... and since credentials were raised as a rationale for why one should be believed, mine--- a shrink!!! And I bet there are attorneys, insurance reps, mechanics, ministers, used car salespersons and other professionals here to. Point being---- for all our apparent knowledge demonstrated here, still we remain ignorant beyond the most basic stuff as evidenced by Thomas Kuhn's paradigm shift model and Hegel's triad-- a thesis eventually produces an antithesis which results in a synthesis. The synthesis becomes the new thesis which produces a new antithesis which results in a new synthesis, etc., etc., etc. Bon apetit!

Soooo, what was the original question for this thread after all????????

"cognitive dissonance" I think by boss suffers from this?

BTW, W66133PF, the original question was running the G35 on regular unleaded. I'm just under 50k miles and thats all I've used on mine. It runs great & I'm with you, no mods needed. I think the factory engineers did a pretty good job. I can think of better things to do with thousands of dollars.

Telcoman

[Beezer]

Am I the only one here not a member of Mensa?

[Jacko3]

C-Kwik:

You have shown your total lack of grasp of the subject matter. I shall no longer argue with you. I had to stop reading your comments when you questioned if expansivities is a wrod at all. Anyone with a good grasp of heat transfer and some physics will understand that there are terms called linear expansivity and cubic expansivity. Nice try!

I am done with this argument--no need to rebutt your comments, and I shall argue no more. Why argue, when you don't even know some basic terminologies of heat transfer. I am sure I would confuse you further if i brought up the term, "Fourier Number". Take care. I don't want to bore other members of this blog with more technical stuff than I need to. I shall bow out with grace. I hope you have the grace and character to bow out as well. Take care!

[W661335PF]

Am I the only one here not a member of Mensa?

FYI-- MENSA in Spanish means "IDIOT" as applied to a female. To a male, it would be MENSO!

[W661335PF]

"cognitive dissonance" I think by boss suffers from this?

BTW, W66133PF, the original question was running the G35 on regular unleaded. I'm just under 50k miles and thats all I've used on mine. It runs great & I'm with you, no mods needed. I think the factory engineers did a pretty good job. I can think of better things to do with thousands of dollars.

Telcoman

Telcoman-- you play pool or chess??? These games are all about the "long game,"- strategically planning out as opposed to shoot from the hip. Obviously, our age is showing a bit; however, I do like Madonna's quote: I'd rather be a lion for a year than a lamb for a lifetime!!! No cognitive dissonance here!

[G_whizz]

Wow... my head honestly feels like it's going to explode!!

TO ALL MEMBERS - Should a noob ever ask about "What octane to use" (and you know it's going to happen) I sincerely hope each and every one of you will point them to this thread..lol

[Jacko3]

W661335PF:

Nice theroretical piece! I like it!

[joe603]

I think this is appropriate...

[W661335PF]

Wow... my head honestly feels like it's going to explode!!

TO ALL MEMBERS - Should a noob ever ask about "What octane to use" (and you know it's going to happen) I sincerely hope each and every one of you will point them to this thread..lol

And not only will the noob get a lesson in octane ratings and fuel efficiency, but also petroleum engineering, thermodynamics, relativistic kinematics and classical mechanics (inertial and gravitational mass), psychiatry/psychology, debate methods, logic, who has a bigger pen15 (in their minds) and whose cerebral cortex can amass and spit out more (mis)information.

This was very entertaining and enlightening all the way! I look forward to the next thread- one where heat and smoke replace light, these are usually the most fascinating!!!! And finally I myself to those whose knowledge in this area greatly exceeds mine.
Modified by W661335PF at 6:47 AM 2/12/2008

[BigWill]

Where the heck is Bill Nye when you need him??!!!

[G_whizz]

I think this is longest running thread ever in the G forum.

Secondly, damn...where the hell did you guys go to school?? lol

It's official... NICO has some serious brainers!

[Beancooker]

Everyone play nice. I see a few people are getting close to the line of making things "personal". I just ask that before someone insults another member, think about the warning that was posted... And maybe review what you have posted, since you can edit it...

[Jacko3]

beancooker:

I shall respond no more. I am done with the argument. I just want to have some fun with the other guys. How's that for a change?

[Sentientbydesign]

Hopefully this doesn't get me in hot water (as I truly don't think I deserve it), but I'm wondering why a moderator hasn't adjusted a certain someone's warning level.

This certain someone has been rude and made erroneous claims from the beginning yet gets to walk around with their nose up in the air.

Hell. I wanna be a mod! lol

[W661335PF]

Hopefully this doesn't get me in hot water (as I truly don't think I deserve it), but I'm wondering why a moderator hasn't adjusted a certain someone's warning level.

This certain someone has been rude and made erroneous claims from the beginning yet gets to walk around with their nose up in the air.

Hell. I wanna be a mod! lol

Modified by W661335PF at 9:48 AM 2/12/2008

[zozoka1212]

How about this to save on your gas.

Where is the electricity come from?

there is some smart answer.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JKB...lated

zozo

[rn79870]

Let me, a relative n00b here, suggest the following:When a situation arises where one poster become upset with another poster, or where a post turns personal, or heaven forbid a mod pisses you off, consider taking the matter to email. Save the other posters from becoming spectators to events they would rather not see.

This is my opinion and ymmv (your mileage may vary).

[W661335PF]

Rob a psuedo-intellectual, narcissistic exhibitionist (no finger pointing) of his audience and the behavior will end!!!

[C-Kwik]

C-Kwik:

You have shown your total lack of grasp of the subject matter. I shall no longer argue with you. I had to stop reading your comments when you questioned if expansivities is a wrod at all. Anyone with a good grasp of heat transfer and some physics will understand that there are terms called linear expansivity and cubic expansivity. Nice try!

I am done with this argument--no need to rebutt your comments, and I shall argue no more. Why argue, when you don't even know some basic terminologies of heat transfer. I am sure I would confuse you further if i brought up the term, "Fourier Number". Take care. I don't want to bore other members of this blog with more technical stuff than I need to. I shall bow out with grace. I hope you have the grace and character to bow out as well. Take care!

Talking about it and naming a term that is easy enough to pull out of a textbook or even the internet is one thing. It's another thing to be able to apply it. A compelling argument does just that. But so far, you haven't applied any scientific terms or the actual science behind them into any part of the discussion. It's like writing a thesis without any evidence, interpretation or even speculation.

I offered a simple challenge; show me how I am wrong. Accusing someone of not understanding the science does not prove your argument in the least. You can understand a concept without knowing the scientific term that describes it. In my case, I had never heard the word expansivity. dictionary.com does not even list it. A search online confirmed what I thought it might relate to, which was expansion. In which case my previous assessment about it's relevance to this discussion stands. It is not relevant.