RB27 Tuning Update! Need Help.... Issues stilll...

[craz4240]

called and tried, the guy gave me dimensions for them and they weren't very close....

I made my own out of 5/8" inch ID heater hose. Seem to be holding just fine.

I fixed my catch can issue as well today. No final tuning though.... I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to head down.

5/8" wow kk well I wasn't sure how big they had to be never thought that.They work great on the 20.

[Shocker]

Yeah rb25's are big.

Right now I seem to be having a Wastegate issue. I've got a Tial 44mm .8 BAR spring, and its hooked up to my compressor housing vac nipple. I've got a 1.25 inch discharge screamer pipe thats about 10" long straight down to the ground.

Problem is shes pegging and holding 17psi, although it seems as if the wastegate is opening at 12-13psi.... so either I'm feeling maybe the compressor isn't a good place for the vac source, or maybe the discharge pipe is to small in diameter causing a restriction on the escaping exhaust gases, thus the increased boost pressure?

I'm not sure, but i just did a bunch of pulls to 6k and same deal every time. I'm about to call Tial tomorrow and ask. I only plan to run around 18lbs with this turbo anyways but still, I'd like to make sure its not going to step up even higher....

[Shocker]

well I took the 44mm apart. Everything seems to be in check minus the top silver part, I can rotate it, but it doesn't come off. I seems as if its one with the valve(pressed in), since the valve turns with it. However I removed the little allen screws and cannot seem to figure out how to take it apart any further. I'm afraid to break it basically.

[Coolwhip]

I know when taking apart the HKS 50mm wastegate to rebuild it was similar.

[gawdzilla]

well I took the 44mm apart. Everything seems to be in check minus the top silver part, I can rotate it, but it doesn't come off. I seems as if its one with the valve(pressed in), since the valve turns with it. However I removed the little allen screws and cannot seem to figure out how to take it apart any further. I'm afraid to break it basically.

if you really suspect something is broken, i've got a tial 44mm sitting around with a 1bar spring if you want to test it out.. just pay shipping or w/e. i've never opened it up so don't ask me how to take it apart:)

[Shocker]

if you really suspect something is broken, i've got a tial 44mm sitting around with a 1bar spring if you want to test it out.. just pay shipping or w/e. i've never opened it up so don't ask me how to take it apart:)

Thanks Gawd, I'll keep that in mind.

I found this thread... this **** got it off, but doesnt say how lol. I'm gonna call a few places at lunch to see if I can find out how w/o hurting it.

Seems like he had the same issue as me.

http://honda-tech.com/zerothre...62754

[ItzGenX]

I've opened mine a few times and all that was needed was to unscrew all the screws. After the last screw was removed, it would literally pop open due to the spring pressure against the cover. Mine held well with basically the same turbo you have now from the .6 bar spring to a 1 bar spring. I've experimented with different combinations. Maybe your manifold design isn't up to par. What manifold are you running and how are the wastegate tubes ran from the manifold? Mine holds rock steady with whatever spring I have in it if the boost controller is turned off. I run a full-race manifold. I know all this is talking about my SR22, but in general, we all follow the same basic rules to boost. Perhaps your wastegate may be jamming, spring binding, or your waste gate plumbing on your manifold isn't up to par.

[Shocker]

I've opened mine a few times and all that was needed was to unscrew all the screws. After the last screw was removed, it would literally pop open due to the spring pressure against the cover. Mine held well with basically the same turbo you have now from the .6 bar spring to a 1 bar spring. I've experimented with different combinations. Maybe your manifold design isn't up to par. What manifold are you running and how are the wastegate tubes ran from the manifold? Mine holds rock steady with whatever spring I have in it if the boost controller is turned off. I run a full-race manifold. I know all this is talking about my SR22, but in general, we all follow the same basic rules to boost. Perhaps your wastegate may be jamming, spring binding, or your waste gate plumbing on your manifold isn't up to par.

Yeah I actually figured it out. It popped right off when I got home last night lol, its amazing what metal does when its cold... It needs to be reshimmed at the base, it seems like its leaking the pressure out down there since the head is not pressed against the body. (which might explain why it opens at the proper psi, then raises to 17psi right after as it immediately starts bleeding off the pressure until it stabilizes.

I'm going to do this when I get home today, reinstall, then take her out for a few WOT pulls. Dump tube placement is in the collector right below the T4 flange.

[Shocker]

Got the wastegate down to 15-16psi now...I dont see what else could be wrong besides the spring. Or maybe like Genx said my manifold design might be effecting the boost... I dunno

Stupid car is still smoking a bit with a blimp of the throttle, but is fine at idle and under load, theres lots of fuel in the oil... I need tuned saturday, a good oil change, and hopefully the smoke will go away. I'm just hoping these rings are breaking in properly....

[Shocker]

Well I guess I can update this. I didn't go down to c-bus today for a tune.. I really feel that my rings arnt 100% A. glazed cylinder walls B. washed down walls from excess fuel.... I talked to my engine builder, I'm trying something for now to see what happens....

Anyways I tuned my car myself today. (I learned a lot) I tuned her to 7k, got her pretty dialed down low for around town stuff, over all very smooth/easy going. Did a TON of leaning in areas. From 5k on WOT fullboost(17psi) we are 11.0's to redline which I set at 7k for now... The lag improved a little bit, but there is still a good deal. I learned that tonight while playing with a local turbo honda... hah.

As far as power is concerned I'm not sure. 1st gear, straight to limiter. 2nd gear pedal time, 3rd gear the tires are heated enough to mat it. Keep in mind I'm running re-01's they arn't much less sticker than my DR's.

Smoke has gone down to from I can tell next to nothing at all. Still appears to have more blow by than I'd like.

I have no idea how to gauge my car with my *** dyno, I plan to head to our local 1/4 for some TnT Friday night to get me a trap speed.... I'll better know how weak/strong she is.

Also, I've yet to really touch timing, full boost I've only got 16 degrees... I'm afraid to touch it. Any insight, Carlh?

[jt15833]

sry I skipped every reply and went straight to my question

anyone know wtf deatschwerks is actually suppose to mean?

Deutsche w/ "a" instead of "u"?

I guesss? retarted? yes!

[the converted]

could be the owners name is David Deatsch.....

[l0nestar]

could be the owners name is David Deatsch.....

Naaaaaah! Couldn't be...

[rb25drag]

So how are you fixing the ring seal problem?

Post some track numbers and video's

[Shocker]

So how are you fixing the ring seal problem?

Post some track numbers and video's

Not really fixing... just removing excess fuel in the map, hoping the possible scuffed rings clear up...

Tracked it yesterday, my suspicions seem to be possibly accurate.. best pass was 13.7@110 2.35 60ft spinning till the 1/8th while pedaling hard.(street tires dumb..) 16 degress WOT 16-17psi, 11.0af/s, 32 degree C intake, 88degree C water. I'm not impressed at all by the trap. At least I was able to drive to the track then back home with almost no issues. I did ruin my RE-01's however...

Heres the issue with that pass 85mph at the 1/8th and I only gained 25mph on the top end... I'd have expected more since I was now WOT full boost. I'm going to retorque head studs tomorrow and compression test again.

I found a local mustang dyno thats only 5 miles from my house. I might rent an hour out on Saturday morning to see some actual numbers and any gains I might be able to make with more tuning. That will hopefully solidify my assumptions on what the deal is.

I'd wager not good. Car is still blowing valve cover tube out, its currently vented to ATM since I need a sealed catch can to keep the oil out of my charge pipes..

[rb25drag]

Doesn't sound good at all man!! I know you was spinning alot, But 110MPH trap? I would think a Stock RB traps that?

Sounds like your leaking alot of compression to the pan which = not alot of bang.

Why don't you try Low Low boost like 5-10PSI for a while to let the rings set in. Kinda sounds like your killing them with boost.

the 11.0 A/F that seems Rich still. Are you not able to lean it out any more? I would think 11.5-12.0 should be about right.

Also what type of oil are you running? I hope its not a Synthetic for break in.

The guy who done your machine work. Do you think he possibly went Over board on your Bore? Hoping it will never be noticed? I have seen machine shops do this with results of problems like yours, Rings not able to seal properly.

Anyways good luck, I hope you can fix it.

[Darius]

I was just going to say that the AFRs are too rich. I'm assuming you're running that way to stay safe from knock but you could almost pull 10% of your fuel to get into the 12s and just stay out of it until you get it tuned so you give your rings a break. I hope they aren't beyond the point of no return.

How do you have your PCV system setup? And what do you mean by a sealed catch can?? Do you mean recirculated to pre-turbo?

[Shocker]

Boost wont go any lower, I'd need to change out my wastegate spring.

Oh yeah I can definitely lean it out. Before start of my road tuning on saturday I was at 10.0's a/f' while WOT, and 12's under normal driving. Now I'm 13-14's normal, and like I said 11.0 WOT.

Oil is Rotella T 15w40 Diesel.

I don't think he did, motor seemed strong when we were first dynoing her. My numbers show that while making almost 400rwhp at only 5500 rpms with a smaller turbo...

Oh yeah, I was only a few mph better than I had done at that track while BPU. Pathetic to say the least... I do know it will pick up a few mph with traction, but from what I can see thus far its not what it should be.

A pump gas 17-19psi 67mm should be 125-130mpg neighborhood.. I'd put more suspicion into the tune if there wasn't as much crank case/oil issues. My oil is dark after only 100-150 miles..... NOT good.

Problem is I'd hate to pull the head before trying everything I can before I go and do work that might not be needed...

[Shocker]

I was just going to say that the AFRs are too rich. I'm assuming you're running that way to stay safe from knock but you could almost pull 10% of your fuel to get into the 12s and just stay out of it until you get it tuned so you give your rings a break. I hope they aren't beyond the point of no return.

How do you have your PCV system setup? And what do you mean by a sealed catch can?? Do you mean recirculated to pre-turbo?

Matt, heres a pic of how it was setup. The middle connector between the covers was being pushed/shot off. (breather wasnt on at the time at the connection, only by the shock tower)



I did tune to 11.0 a/f's for knock protection. (if I head to the dyno this weekend I'll adjust as needed)

I don't plan to drive the car this week. I didn't drive it last week either until Saturday for tuning.

[rb25drag]

Can you put a Cheap manual boost controller on it for a temp fix and lower boost?

Hmm I don't know much about Rotella oil, I always use Castrol to break my motors in. After 500 miles, My oil is still Crystal clear.

Watch out about Gas in the oil. That will Kill your bearings quickly.

Def lean it out some more man. I think you have a combo working against you here.

The Dyno tune will help you alot!!

[Shocker]

Can you put a Cheap manual boost controller on it for a temp fix and lower boost?

Hmm I don't know much about Rotella oil, I always use Castrol to break my motors in. After 500 miles, My oil is still Crystal clear.

Watch out about Gas in the oil. That will Kill your bearings quickly.

Def lean it out some more man. I think you have a combo working against you here.

The Dyno tune will help you alot!!

MBC wont help since it wont go any lower than WG spring. Its currently WG only, MBC disconnected.

Rotella has added Zinc in it, some recommend it for breakin and forever. My builder did, my tuner runs it in his 20b rotary as well.

[Darius]

The way you have the PCV system setup, the catch can may or may not see much air flow. Assuming you still have a PCV valve in the valve cover. The PCV needs vacuum to open it up and pressure to close it against the valve cover pressure. With neither, it is probably more influenced by the direction you're turning at the time

Am I understanding you when you say the interconnecting hose is blowing off of the valve covers even without the breather filter on it? I'd be surprised as hell at that and there would have to be something VERY wrong for that to occur. However, if your breather was on the exhaust valve cover and it blew off, I'd put money on the breather being clogged with oil and causing the crankcase to pressurize.

[Shocker]

Am I understanding you when you say the interconnecting hose is blowing off of the valve covers even without the breather filter on it? I'd be surprised as hell at that and there would have to be something VERY wrong for that to occur. However, if your breather was on the exhaust valve cover and it blew off, I'd put money on the breather being clogged with oil and causing the crankcase to pressurize.

Exactly what is happening when no breather is on that interconnection but on the far catch can by the passenger shock tower. Only when boosting, its also spraying a bit of oil onto the base of the hood. Just a thin coating.. but yeah from what I've read and seen nothing that extreme should happening...especially in the time frame its going on.

[gawdzilla]

your timing may be too retarded which = no power. without knock sensors though or a way to monitor det i would be careful. i don't know how much ign timing the 25s run, but the 26s for 16-17 psi should be 20-maybe mid 20 deg timing on pump. 16 deg sounds too low. When i ran the timing that low, my manifold/turbine/downpipe would glow. Car would not pull hard either. boost would be there but the car wouldn't go. Try bumping the timing slowly and see if the egts come down.

btw, 11.0 A/F is ok. you should still make good power running that rich.

[Shocker]

your timing may be too retarded which = no power. without knock sensors though or a way to monitor det i would be careful. i don't know how much ign timing the 25s run, but the 26s for 16-17 psi should be 20-maybe mid 20 deg timing on pump. 16 deg sounds too low. When i ran the timing that low, my manifold/turbine/downpipe would glow. Car would not pull hard either. boost would be there but the car wouldn't go. Try bumping the timing slowly and see if the egts come down.

btw, 11.0 A/F is ok. you should still make good power running that rich.

25's are 15 degrees base. but I basically have a 26+ without the head/ITB's.

8.5-1 compression

Gawd you mind telling me your timing curve with vac/boost through 1k to redline, our setups/turbos are very close in flow and power output. It will give me a guideline to hit around... I'll play with this all on the dyno, I most likely will go Saturday morning to see the possible gains.

[Darius]

The 26 has a base timing of 20 degrees and I have no idea why it is different than the 25. Someone else can fill in the theory behind it.

Gawdzilla is saying that he is running mid 20's for his timing up in the higher rpm load cells on his ignition map.

I still think something is wrong with ring(s) or piston(s) if the crank case is being pressurized like that. Have you done a leakdown test on it recently?

[Shocker]

The 26 has a base timing of 20 degrees and I have no idea why it is different than the 25. Someone else can fill in the theory behind it.

Gawdzilla is saying that he is running mid 20's for his timing up in the higher rpm load cells on his ignition map.

I still think something is wrong with ring(s) or piston(s) if the crank case is being pressurized like that. Have you done a leakdown test on it recently?

2 weeks ago I did a few days after I noticed the possible blow by issue here are the results..

comp Test

1. 1452. 1503. 1404.1355.1256.150

Number 5 cylinder, didn't look good... Leak down.

1. 2%2. 1%3. 3%4. 4%5. 7%6. 1%

Timing at least for me is vac/boost based, it has nothing to do with RPM.

[gawdzilla]

i'd bit a little concerned with those numbers. cyl 5 looks like its struggling.

i'm running about 23 deg up top, 16-17 psi, base timing of 20, off boost mid to high 20 deg. it's hard to describe the off boost b/c its really apples to oranges cuz we don't have the same EMS. pfc does load differently.

[Shocker]

i'd bit a little concerned with those numbers. cyl 5 looks like its struggling.

i'm running about 23 deg up top, 16-17 psi, base timing of 20, off boost mid to high 20 deg. it's hard to describe the off boost b/c its really apples to oranges cuz we don't have the same EMS. pfc does load differently.

Trust me I'm more than concerned, I'm about damn convinced I need rings/rehone. lol

I'll try to add a few more degrees this weekend on the dyno see what happens... first more compression/leakdown numbers tomorrow after work to see how its looking.

Our off boost/vac timing seems about the same, its just when it starts being boosted. Where you getting full boost Gawd?

[gawdzilla]

Where you getting full boost Gawd?

Late, and it's annoying, but I don't want to spend to get a smaller turbo. I think full boost is around 5500. The car starts to move right before 4k. I was at the track 2 weeks ago and coming out of corners it's pretty tough. Really gotta get on it early so i have power after the apex. It's making me think about getting a 4.63 final drive.