OFFICIAL S14 Pikes Peak Time Attack Build Thread - Take Two

[IanS]

I think this needs some front page exposure!

Me too, thats why I emailed a link for this to Greg.

[kenno470]

Ken, shoot me an email when you get a break... Got a couple ideas.

[email protected]

e-mail sent! Look forward to hearing from you.

[AZhitman]

This thread makes me happy in pants.

Will hit you up this evening, Ken...

[mutiny]

wow this is going to be incredible! climbing pike's peak no less..... i think its builds like these that motivate me to at least get my car running lol

[kenno470]

OK...in the rule book for Pikes Peak Time Attack it says I'm not allowed to use Methanol. Which is a bummer because it's an easy 15% horsepower gain. HOWEVER...I am allowed to run E85. Let's look a the pro's: octane through the roof...free horsepower...It runs cooler than gas...and maybe the biggest pro: it's much cheaper than race gas.

The cons: I have no idea how to set it up in this application. Fuel pump requirements? Injector size? Will it play havoc on my O2 and other sensors?

It'll be fun to learn, but do I have time?

What do you think?

[MagikDragon]

why run race gas if you can run premium?

how much hp are we talkin here?I do not think e85 will reap havoc on most of the new fuel pumps/injectors. one call to deatsch works might give you some answers.

[IanS]

OK...in the rule book for Pikes Peak Time Attack it says I'm not allowed to use Methanol. Which is a bummer because it's an easy 15% horsepower gain. HOWEVER...I am allowed to run E85. Let's look a the pro's: octane through the roof...free horsepower...It runs cooler than gas...and maybe the biggest pro: it's much cheaper than race gas.

The cons: I have no idea how to set it up in this application. Fuel pump requirements? Injector size? Will it play havoc on my O2 and other sensors?

It'll be fun to learn, but do I have time?

What do you think?

E85 is a great way of getting things done. MN has more E85 than anywhere.

Here is a quick rundown of what you need.

You need a high volume fuel pump, if you plan to run a fuel cell, make sure your pump is rated for alcohol, 95% of new ones are, so you should be fine.

All your rubber fuel lines must be alcohol rated, most performance fuel lines will do fine.

Injectors will need to be large, E85 requires about 30% more fuel to achieve stoich ratio. Calculate injector size for you desired power lever using gasoline, then add 30%. AFAIK, most aftermarket injectors are alcohol safe, just make sure to replace the o rings.

Tuning, you will need to tune just like you would with gas, except you will need to use a lambda based wideband o2 sensor.

Some of your benefits, More boost, more timing advance, better knock resistance, less stress on the cooling system. One of the main drawbacks is availability, but because this is a race car, that is easily avoidable.

One thing I do not know is altitudes effect on E85, it is possible this may cause problems, though Im guessing it has been done before.

[kenno470]

why run race gas if you can run premium?

how much hp are we talkin here?I do not think e85 will reap havoc on most of the new fuel pumps/injectors. one call to deatsch works might give you some answers.

Down here (Texas)premium might not be a problem, depending on how much boost I decide to throw at it. But up there it's a whole new ball game. I've seen brake fluid boil up there, as well as some other crazy stuff. Keeping things cool is ALWAYS a problem. Race gas runs much, much cooler than premium and comes with the added advantage of eliminating detonation.Deatsch Works? I don't know them. I'll certainly try to look em' up. Thanks for the tip!

[kenno470]

E85 is a great way of getting things done. MN has more E85 than anywhere.

Here is a quick rundown of what you need.

You need a high volume fuel pump, if you plan to run a fuel cell, make sure your pump is rated for alcohol, 95% of new ones are, so you should be fine.

All your rubber fuel lines must be alcohol rated, most performance fuel lines will do fine.

Injectors will need to be large, E85 requires about 30% more fuel to achieve stoich ratio. Calculate injector size for you desired power lever using gasoline, then add 30%. AFAIK, most aftermarket injectors are alcohol safe, just make sure to replace the o rings.

Tuning, you will need to tune just like you would with gas, except you will need to use a lambda based wideband o2 sensor.

One thing I do not know is altitudes effect on E85, it is possible this may cause problems, though Im guessing it has been done before.

Think I won't be pinging you when it comes time to set this up? Rhys Millen ran E85 in his solstice this year, so I know it's possible. I'll have questions for you on that wideband O2 sensor...For the injectors viton o-rings should do the trick.I have no idea how to calculate injector size. This is my first go at electronic fuel injection. Our drag cars all used mechanical FI...we started with the mfgs base line and changed jets and bypass pills according to EGT, etc...So, I'll need to buy a vowel on this one...

Thanks for the input!!

[RCA]

Well calculating injector sizes is easy:http://www.solutions29.com/injcalc.htm

There tons more like it. Also there are companys that sell computer software that can figure out tons of misc stuff as well as non misc

[niceguy]

These guys can probably help too....http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=3

[kenno470]

Thanks for the resources, guys! I appreciate it!

project update:

Ordered my seat today as well as my brake and clutch pedal assembly. The seat is a Kirkey aluminum road racing seat. Not the best, but the price was right and I need a seat to finish the floor and set the driving position.

The brake and clutch pedal assembly is from Wilwood and is their Forward Swing Mount Triple Master Cylinder Pedal - Aluminum.

Disregard the aluminum master cylinders in the photo. I'll be using plastic.

I also made a couple new friends here locally. One of them is working on an R32 GTST. The picture I saw looks pretty sexy. The other is doing an SR20DET swap and I was able to trade a few parts for his complete KA and his front bumper with lip.So...a productive week and things are progressing. I have also started grinding out the crappy body work so I can better evaluate what I can fix and what needs to be replaced.

I've been thinking about the third member and am trying to decide on either clutch type LSD or helical. I'm not familiar with the pro's and con's for either so your input will be appreciated.

Thanks again, everyone, for your support and input.

Bye!

[kenno470]

So...I peeled away some of the crappy bodywork and found some damage that will need to be cut out and replaced. The bondo was over half an inch thick in some places!!

ouch...ouch...ouch...ouch...ouch...ouch...

So, there it is. I have much work to do. I'll post some more pictures when I get the evil bits cut out.

Bye!

[kenno470]

We're making more progress on the body work and roll cage changes. We got the bar going through the passenger area removed and the trunk floor is nearly complete. We have been selctively trimming and are just about ready to start putting in the frame for the fuel cell. I just need to get one!

We are also looking for a donor car so I can replace the damaged rocker panel. You can see in the photos that I was able to salvage the area just behind the driver door. I cut out and re-shaped the panel and welded it back in. I thin skim coat of filler and it should look ok.

I'm really looking forward to finishing up the grunt work and clean up and get to the fun stuff. Soon...













There it is...

[IanS]

You honestly have no idea how badly I wish I lived in TX right now. I swear I would have taken up residence in your basement or shed just to help with this project. I cant wait till I can build another race car. Building a race car is dirty, sweaty, uncomfortable, and its expensive to boot, but there is nothing more fulfilling.

[MagikDragon]

Awesome Job Ken, Nice welder, we used the same one for our car. Its a sweet little machine.

You guys are making great progress

[kenno470]

Awesome Job Ken, Nice welder, we used the same one for our car. Its a sweet little machine.

You guys are making great progress

Thanks. That little Hobart 140 is doing a great job for me. For the stuff I need to do on this project it'll work out really well!

Still working on the body this week. I need a donor car for the driver side rocker panel that I removed. I could probalby fab what I need, but holy cow, what an arse-whip that would be. I also got started on the passenger side rear quarter. I had to grind out about half an inch of bondo...again. But I cleaned it up, cut out the panel and flattened out the nasty wrinkles and I'll be welding it back on this evening.

Still looking for a good price on a 12 to 16 gallon fuel cell. I can go cheap and get a Jaz with a steel can, but they only come with a single pickup and vent. I need the return as well, and prefer the ATL or Fuel Safe style top plate.I'll be starting the fab on the steering stem this week. Does anyone know if I can use the factory power rack as a manual rack? Is it ok if I just block off the ports and run it as is? I'm still trying to decide if I need to keep the power steering or if I just ditch it.I'm also starting on the driver floor modifications. I'm getting rid of the cat lump so I can fab a seat mount that will be lower than what I have now.

Bye!

[IanS]

Does anyone know if I can use the factory power rack as a manual rack? Is it ok if I just block off the ports and run it as is? I'm still trying to decide if I need to keep the power steering or if I just ditch it.

You can use any power steering rack as manual as long as you modify it properly. To do things right, you should remove the flow control valve mounted in the base of the steering gear. Then take the high pressure line and cut the end off of it, then connect it to the power steering reservoir where the feed line would normally go. Leave the return line as it. Refill the reservoir with ATF. This creates a loop for fluid to flow, this way things stay lubricated, and you don't have to fight internal rack pressure to turn the wheels.

[kenno470]

That sounds easy enough. I am a bit concerned with how much effort will be required with an 8.5 to 9.5" front wheel. I'm thinking a 255/40 or 275/35 front tire...How much drag do I really save by eliminating the power steering? Enough to make it worth the extra effort?

Thanks!!

[IanS]

That sounds easy enough. I am a bit concerned with how much effort will be required with an 8.5 to 9.5" front wheel. I'm thinking a 255/40 or 275/35 front tire...How much drag do I really save by eliminating the power steering? Enough to make it worth the extra effort?

Thanks!!

On dirt, tire width isnt your biggest worry. You need to look at your scrub radius, its the distance between your steering axis, and the center line of your contact patch. The higher the scrub radius, the more effort will be required to turn the wheels. Also adding more caster will also increase steering effort.

What do you plan on running for wheels? If you can keep your scrub radius as close to zero as possible, running manual steering wont be an issue. Me personally, I run 16" x 8" wheels on the front with a +10 offset, and a 225 width tire, this gives me a rather high scrub radius. The car wants to drive straight, even with my power steering working, the effort needed to hold the wheels turned at speed, is noticeably more. Without my PS, trying to increase steering angle at speed requires both arms, and I am by no means a little guy. This is on tarmac though, things change drastically when you drop to gravel.

On dirt I run Michelin gravel tires on 15" x 7" wheels with a -10 offset. This pushes my scrub radius even further out, but it is a necessary evil to help the car rotate more effectively. I don't think you would have any issues with a manual rack while on gravel, I personally feel that it will afford you more straight line stability at high speeds.

I guess what Im trying to say is, its a balancing act. It will depend on what tires you choose to run, and on what wheels. I think running that kind of tire width you will be dealing with a positive scrub radius. On gravel you should be fine, but the tarmac portion of the stage will take a lot of upper body strength. You may end up wearing yourself out trying to turn the car during the first part of the event.

Personally, I would stick with the PS, it doesn't draw very much energy, and I think your shoulders will thank you. I guess thats enough rambling for one night.

[kenno470]

GREAT Advice!

Looks like I'll be sticking with the PS after all.

The wheels I'm considering (if I can find them at the right price) are the Nismo, Rays Engineering LMGT4 in bronze. 18x8.5 (+25) front and 18x9.5 (+30) rear. It's my understanding that I can get these under the fender without going widebody (I will go wide at some point, just not right now).

Thanks again, Ian!

[IanS]

Glad to be of help, what do you plan to run for tires?

[kenno470]

Glad to be of help, what do you plan to run for tires?

Not sure yet. Either 245/275 or 275/315, if they'll fit. I've always been a big fan of BF Goodrich tires having raced on them before, but we'll see. I'll use whatever works best!

No major updates this week. I've just been working on the body (still) and I'm still looking for a donor for the rocker panel.

I was given another source for used KA parts, so I'll be picking up some spares when I get back from Atlanta (had to come here on business this week).This weekend I'll be leveling the drivers side floor and installing the fuel tank that I finally got in on Monday. So, next week I might have some fun stuff to show.

Bye!

[IanS]

Good to hear you found a fuel cell.

As for tires, I will do a little checking, see whats available in those sizes. What are you looking to run for compound? Do you want a street tire, or an R compound?

One thing to keep in mind, you mentioned earlier that you'd like to run 8.5 and 9.5 inch wheels. Fitting a 315 width tire on a 9.5 inch wheel will require one heck of a squeeze. Ive put 315s on a 11" wheel before, and Im not sure getting them onto a 9.5 would be, shall we say, recommended.

Cant wait for more updateage.
Modified by FlatBlackIan at 1:42 AM 8/28/2008

[kenno470]

I figured as much. I'm guessing 245, maybe a 255 with a 275 on the rear.I'm allowed to groove an R Compound tire, so that's the way I expect to go.

Bye!

[IanS]

I'm allowed to groove an R Compound tire, so that's the way I expect to go.

Bye!

Ive seen open class guys do this before with very good results.

[Terrorinc17]

Send me all your calipers and we will get them rebuilt and powdercoated.

I will also do some crew shirts and T shirts for you guys.

I will send you several cases of a new organic (Awesome Tasting) drink called "Sick Tea".

http://www.sicktea.comhttp://www.timmymegenbier.com

Send me an email at [email protected] with all your info.

Good Luck!

[kenno470]

Send me all your calipers and we will get them rebuilt and powdercoated.

I will also do some crew shirts and T shirts for you guys.

I will send you several cases of a new organic (Awesome Tasting) drink called "Sick Tea".

http://www.sicktea.comhttp://www.timmymegenbier.com

Send me an email at [email protected] with all your info.

Good Luck!

e-mail sent.

[kenno470]

Got all the components rounded up for the steering column. Spent some time down in the Fatman Racing machine shop this weekend where Steve (The Fatman) got behind the lathe and turned out a roller bearing steering column. Very cool.We spent Saturday running around the scrap yards looking for aluminum. Found a few nice pieces. Then we headed over to Brink Racecraft to pick up some chromoly and a beefy u-joint for the steering column. Our last stop of the day was at Nissan Heaven in Fort Worth to see if I could find a suitable donor for the replacement sheet metal I need to finish up the body work.

Here's a few pics of Steve fabricating the bearing carrier for the steering shaft:















Check out how he rolled the edge over the front of the bearing to lock it in. Very cool.

I did quite a bit more surgery on the drivers door sill and rocker area. I'm prepping the donor part now. I'll also be mounting the fuel cell tomorrow so I'll have more updates then.

Bye!

[kenno470]

Took me most of today in some crazy mizerable humidity and heat but the fuel cell is finally installed...mostly. I need to get some 1" strap metal to finish it up, but the hard part is done.

Here's a few pics:











Here's a few of the body surgery and the donor...pre chop:







That's all for this week.

Bye!