KA vs. SR could get ugly

[DonDonati88]

alll of you SHUT UP, it's a matter of opinion, tastes ETC. SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT!

[stuofsci02]

Quote »Point being, maybe we know a thing or two about them and can lend a hand. [/quote]

If you dont like the dicussion you should leave..

[WDRacing]

Wow, and you are a moderator???

"The last 20 some od posts are all CRAP. Know one asked what engine was prefered. No one asked what was more original. The SR20 isn't original guys, they come in Altima's. Try the RB series for originality."

- Eehhh, I actually had a post in this thread about originality and how it doesnt make any difference in the racing world, guess you didnt see it.

"I haven't heard any good arguments as to why the SR would actually be better. I could make a KA with a stock bottom end hit 300hp at the wheels easily. So you can't say that its weak."

- I could, I would, I should......

"Where is the factuall evidence I was looking forward to reading. All I saw was " well everyone knows the SR will smoke a highmileage KA" what a line of BS."

- False, read the whole thread again. Where is your FACTUAL evidence?

"I don't even own a KA yet, so don't go flaming about how I have pride in the OEM stuff. I'm actually a bigger fan of the RB series, which I've been racing for the last 4 years."

- Yeah, I bet you have.... you "original racer" you....

"The hole thing about technology being a sub for displacement is retarded. Simply apply the same technology to the engine with more displacement...not hard to figure that one out."

- So why arent you racing a V12, or a V10, or a V8?

"Lets hear some good facts or particular reasoning behind why the SR should be favored, or vice versa."

- The aftermarket alone would convince any SERIOUS racer to favor the sr20det over the KA.

I cant believe such an ignorant post has been made by a moderator...... I'm looking for a new forum to frequent.

Lets let actions speak louder than words, all you KA lovers go and prove how good the engine is... actually go out and race them... give them a good reputation... all this talk is really tiring.

the SR20det has NOTHING to prove, it is a legend in the country of its origin and has won numerous JGTC titles...

nils240racing.com

Hey NILS, buddy, I'm not trying to start a KA is better post. I'm trying to get some info and proven opinions on which motor is better and for why. Just as I said.

By me saying that alot of posts previous to my apparent outburst were crap, is because they made absolutely no effort to support they're arguments.

I have had all V8's my entire life, I've ownwd everything from a 77 Caprice to a 1990 Formula 350.

Then I cam to Japan and started driving Skylines...nuff said about that. My point was that you simply can't say technology will generate a better motor. Both the KA and SR are based on the same years of production. Technology can be applied to both.

New topic...

There is enough aftermarket to generate some quick KA's. Most parts can quickly be custom made as well.

I was hoping to get some very different points and views on this thread. But it seems like everyone is content to just argue blindly.

Oh, as far as being a Moderator is concerned. If by me using the word crap, has bothered anyone, I'm extremely sorry. But there isn't any rule that says Mods have to be sissies. 99% of us live in the most abrasive country in the world. Thank god for America...

In the future I will try to post a tad bit more professionally, I keep forgetting that civilian types are weak...lol. I'm just kidding...really, I'm not out to piss people off.

Oh, and Stuofsci02...If the SR guys could have read what you posted, they would also have told you that you were completely incorrect. That is the reason you got dealt with the way you did. You can't just post misinformation like that to a person who earnestly wants help. You'll get people into trouble doing that.

I think we all need a group hug

Remember, most of the guys on this forum love the SR and some may prefer the KA, heck I'll take the RB over most other engine ever built. But we all love Nissans...

Lets work on getting the best possible SR/KA as possible.

PEACE, I'm outWD

[Nils]

Hey NILS, buddy, I'm not trying to start a KA is better post. I'm trying to get some info and proven opinions on which motor is better and for why. Just as I said.

By me saying that alot of posts previous to my apparent outburst were crap, is because they made absolutely no effort to support they're arguments.

I have had all V8's my entire life, I've ownwd everything from a 77 Caprice to a 1990 Formula 350.

Then I cam to Japan and started driving Skylines...nuff said about that. My point was that you simply can't say technology will generate a better motor. Both the KA and SR are based on the same years of production. Technology can be applied to both.

New topic...

There is enough aftermarket to generate some quick KA's. Most parts can quickly be custom made as well.

I was hoping to get some very different points and views on this thread. But it seems like everyone is content to just argue blindly.

Oh, as far as being a Moderator is concerned. If by me using the word crap, has bothered anyone, I'm extremely sorry. But there isn't any rule that says Mods have to be sissies. 99% of us live in the most abrasive country in the world. Thank god for America...

In the future I will try to post a tad bit more professionally, I keep forgetting that civilian types are weak...lol. I'm just kidding...really, I'm not out to piss people off.

Oh, and Stuofsci02...If the SR guys could have read what you posted, they would also have told you that you were completely incorrect. That is the reason you got dealt with the way you did. You can't just post misinformation like that to a person who earnestly wants help. You'll get people into trouble doing that.

I think we all need a group hug

Remember, most of the guys on this forum love the SR and some may prefer the KA, heck I'll take the RB over most other engine ever built. But we all love Nissans...

Lets work on getting the best possible SR/KA as possible.

PEACE, I'm outWD

It's all good.... that group hug made me feel better =P

I understand what you are saying, I dont completely agree with you, but hey, if we all agreed on everything this would be a pretty boring world =)

I hope the KA guys dont feel like I disrespect them, I have raced the KA for a year now and it hasnt blown up yet... so I'll give it that.

take care,nils

btw - the word crap did not offend me & I agree with you on the RB being a great engine, nearly has the potential of the 2JZ-GTE ...j/k

[TheProfessional]

WD, point well taken. and good encouragement. this may sound stupid, but there truly does need to be more uplifting conversation on this site, not flame every chance you get. here's my 2 cents. i sold a 13 second JRSC honda si for my 95 240. so i went from a quick and fun 13 second car to a what, 16 second car? immediately i was all "im getting an sr20 right away," but as time goes on, i grow closer to my KA. now ill admit, i dont know everything about the two motors, but i can tell you... i drift around as many corners as possible in high rpms with my 95K KA, and the thing runs perfectly. the power band with 160 weak HP, is somehow pleasing. now, one can not argue the point, "look at the japanese all they use is sr20's," because they didnt get KA's in all their 240's. but we did, and its a very STRONG point about the reassurance of buying a full KA swap at under 500 bucks... period! anyway, ill keep you posted in what i chose to go with. PS- WD ill be in japan for 8 days in April, and a ride in a skyline would be ok..... email me bro. thanks guys.

[WDRacing]

Just for the record, having never driven in a KADET powered 240, I drove my buddies 180 powered by the usual SR20 with a TD06. That car had serious balls...Of course I beat him with my Skyline...8)...But he was only running 15psi to my 28. The SR just revs so quickly...

However.com I love torque. I know it's quite possible with a full crank job and valvetrain work. To take the KA to 7500 rpm. Throw on a 300zx lightened flywheel and she'll rev towards redline pretty fast aswell.

Oh, one more thing. It's a far easer goal to have the fastest KA powered 240 in the world then it is an SR powered 240. Which by the way will be held by me as soon as I get back. I might even go for the goal of beating out all the streey legal SR's. We'll see, either way it will be fun as hell.

NILS....lmao....2JZ....I'll take my RB26....Course, I will always respect the big 3 liter.

WD

[C-Kwik]

Here is my take on the KA vs SR debate. Frankly, this could be the same as a KA vs B16 Debate. Or an H22 vs an SR debate. Modding engines is all about determining the weak spots, and fixing them to be able to push more power. All motors have them. All motors are built with Compromises. Yes, even the mighty 2JE-GTE has it's weak points(although it's astronomically tolerant for an OEM motor). The SR needs resleeving at some point. The KA's compression may be a bit on the high side. The SR is smaller. The KA doesn't rev as high. The SR has valve problems at high RPMs. The list could go on and on. Do you think the Honda guys running 8 second 1/4 miles saw things as limitations? Doubtful. They probably saw it as a hurdle. The trick is you cut down the hurdle so you can jump over it. Hell, if you're good, you may be able to walk over it. Some of the Hondas are running about 1000 HP. Of course these are race motors and built as such, but even half that power would be a rather nice amount of HP.

If I had to build an ultra high HP SR or KA, I'd go SR. Not because the KA is any less capable. Only because others have done the research already. Noone has seriously explored the ins and outs of of a ultra high HP KA. On that note, I do know of one KA that has gone to a shop that builds NASPORT GT cars including NASPORT KA's. The owner is expecting to possibly get into the 600 HP range on race fuel. Personally I can't wait. And hopefully he will have it ready in time for the 2003 national convention.

[Daunttless]

Speaking of KA weaknesses. : ) I don't really want to get into the debate, but wheres the comments on vibration and the crank. Demcj? : )

[JESTER]

WD,

I think the main prob with not getting info instead of opinion, is that there is way more info out there on the SR than on a turboed KA.

I dont think a fair comparison could be made unless all thing were equal. This of course is not egual. A 2.0 turbo engine versus a 2.4 truck engine with a turbo set up installed. A stock SR makes 205 to 250 HP depending on model. The stock KA with after market turbo system (7 psi) makes approx 240 HP. If you are looking at both engines on stock condition (with turbo for the KA) the KA produces more horse power and torque, but the SR will rev higher.

Of course if you slap a T04b or T3/T04b hybrid on an SR, I am sure it will make more horse power than on the stock turbo at the same boost level. But then you run into the area of boost lag. A T04b will have more lag on the 2.0 (stock) than on the KA (stock). The high compression and added displacement come into play.

Here is the part where I give my opinion. KA-T. Why? The 240 in the U.S. comes with a KA24. I can pick a spare up for near nothing. I can turbo it as other members here have shown for the small amount of $1250 (Sexy240). But this is and is always gonna be a debate of opinion. Which is an un-win-able argument.

WD, I gotcha back. You were right it got ugly.

[WDRacing]

Speaking of KA weaknesses. : ) I don't really want to get into the debate, but wheres the comments on vibration and the crank. Demcj? : )

She does tend to vibrate a bit. But I'm quite sure with a good crank job...lol...I said crank job, that you'll be able to get rid of the vibration and increase the revs of the KA. Not by any big margin, but enough for tad bit longer power curve.

WD

[WDRacing]

WD, I gotcha back. You were right it got ugly.

Nah, no one threatened to kill anybody, this forum is all love...how it should be

[TheProfessional]

where do you get KA turbo kits for 1250?! thanks.

[TrunkMonkey]

where do you get KA turbo kits for 1250?! thanks.

they pieced it together themselves.

-demetrius

[TrunkMonkey]

Speaking of KA weaknesses. : ) I don't really want to get into the debate, but wheres the comments on vibration and the crank. Demcj? : )

you calling me out Daunttless?:)

so the KA isn't as smooth as the SR. hell, the KA isn't as smooth as anything, but i wouldn't consider that a weakness.

i've never understood why people want to make the KA rev higher anyways. unless you're building a serious n/a engine, it's kinda pointless.

buy an SR if you want more revs...better yet, buy a honda.

-demetrius

[cosmo]

But this is and is always gonna be a debate of opinion. Which is an un-win-able argument.

Exactly. It's a preference thing. Both have it's ups and downs.

I'd go with the SR, but that's just me.

[bp2ooo]

This thread should be a faq page for people who just got a 240, and cant decide what motor they want. Just about every difference between the motor has been talked about, so they will get good info.

[Gladimor]

WDracing after chillin in the turbo ka forum for a bit and reading through the SIX pages of material, at your level of knowlege it just depends on what motor you know best and working with it. But as a side note, with a stroker kit, you can get a 2.2 with a redline of 9k on an sr20 motor and it's a race proven engine, pretty much what you are looking for. Dono just reminding you I guess, anyway whatever you do choose, I'm sure it will be fast as all hell.

Peace and GL!

[Syntax360]

This thread should be a faq page for people who just got a 240, and cant decide what motor they want. Just about every difference between the motor has been talked about, so they will get good info.

definitely. I think a lot of people seek out this board because they just got their first 240 and are not sure which way to go with it. This thread has to be one of the most informative ones I have read yet.

[WDRacing]

Of course they could use the little red button...8)

WD

[Dori Dori]

KAt vs. SRdet dyno comparison

-demetrius

This dyno 'comparison' shows some good info as to why the SR is the better choice for all out power (even though it was meant to do the opposite, and prove how almighty the torque of a KA is). A couple of points:

1. The SR has such low torque in that dyno sheet b/c it has a big turbo running low boost...not b/c it's an SR. Proper turbo sizing or more boost would go a long way in this scenario.

2. Notice how the power tapers away towards redline on the KA. On the SR it keeps rising...that explains the poor E.T.'s and traps of super high powered KAT's. The SR is just begining to have it's fun.

I would also like to add that the SR, after swapping out the hydraulic lifters, shouldn't have any valvetrain issues.

[matt0941]

DonDonati88, Please stop quoting people and posting your stupid smilies. Why don't you add something valid to the argument instead of wasting bandwith.

And then shoot yourself.

[matt0941]

:moon :youwon

WDRacing - as for the comment about there not being death threats, I don't know how much longer I can hold back.

As for stuofsci02, I was the one who had a post about turboing the KA. You came in and gave your opinion and did not give any valid information (which you should be ashamed of) that held little to no truth (I am verging on no). I would just like to say that I am glad that Demcj deleted your posts. Because you know what? People come onto these boards and some of them read your misinformation, then they leave. They don't see the follow ups that clarify it, and that really sucks.

As for the KA vs SR, I really don't know yet, I am still deciding. What it really comes down to for me is legality, money, as well as availabilty

1) For all you ***holes that think your funny by saying "I don't see any people swapping KAs into their silvias in Japan!" That is not a valid argument. We have the KA, and all though this has been stressed it may not have been stressed enough. Stock to stock the SR wins, but thats an added $3,000. What can we do with that $3,000 on the stock motor, many people ask themselves. Remember, we don't live in Japan (besides WD - lucky bastard).

2) The SR was never tested for the EPA and CARB. Aftermarket turbo setups on the KA were never tested for CARB and are considered to defeat emissions controls. Say I were to get busted for having a turbo on my KA. I would much rather have an aftermarket turbo and then remove it than be in a situation in which I have an engine that was never registered in the US. To many people this could not make a difference but I am looking for a daily driver and I am a bit of a paranoid guy. Again, to each his own.

The remark about the SR replacing the 2JZGT(T)E in a Supra :rolleyes , just because someone did it doesn't make it right. It makes me think of a disabled child trying to fit two legs through one pant leg.

This thread has been a joke so far and is a waste of bandwith. In no point during reading this did I feel I was being fed wholesome unbiased information. And even if we did create a FAQ of which motor one should go with, I feel that it would hold some bias, no matter who wrote it. I am still undecided but by no means am I unbiased I could argue either way.

And bp2ooo, yoour point is pretty weak. Trying to say that it doesn't matter that there are KAs everywhere and you can pick up parts from them for dirt cheap; because it is better to buy upgraded parts. This is just flawed logic. Your KA part breaks, you have it running in a day for $50 bucks. Your SR part breaks, you have to wait a month (generalization) and $200 later your car is running. Give me a break, trying to rationalize the fact that there are alot of aftermarket engine parts for SRs makes everything ok.. yea ok. I could name so many parts on an SR that you don't want or don't need aftermarket, so don't say that cr*p.

As far as my pending decision about which motor to go with, I will still need substantial information about legality of each process. After that is determined I will also take the mileage of the 240 into consideration, and make a choice weighing all of the facts. I hope that all of you (if you haven't already that is) make decisions based on rational thought processes (atleast I think its rational) rather than going for that "Tigheeeet JDM SR setup" just because its from Japan or going for that "Torquey *** OEM KA-T" just because you'll be original.

[TrunkMonkey]

This dyno 'comparison' shows some good info as to why the SR is the better choice for all out power (even though it was meant to do the opposite, and prove how almighty the torque of a KA is). A couple of points:

1. The SR has such low torque in that dyno sheet b/c it has a big turbo running low boost...not b/c it's an SR. Proper turbo sizing or more boost would go a long way in this scenario.

2. Notice how the power tapers away towards redline on the KA. On the SR it keeps rising...that explains the poor E.T.'s and traps of super high powered KAT's. The SR is just begining to have it's fun.

I would also like to add that the SR, after swapping out the hydraulic lifters, shouldn't have any valvetrain issues.

you didn't read through the entire thread did you?

-demetrius

[Dano]

an idea...save ure money, swap in sr20 and while the KA is out, rebuild it, slap on a turbo...then u can buy a dirtcheap engineless junkyard 240 and throw it in...bam, sr and ka-t powered cars...woo hoo... j/k

Hey...even tho its not budget friendly or realisitic to most of the younger car enthusiasts like myself...it IS an idea....

-Dan

[Dori Dori]

you didn't read through the entire thread did you?

-demetrius

Negative. You posted for the dyno sheet...I read the dyno sheet. I'll read it though...

[Dori Dori]

OK, I learned 2 things:1. For whatever reason, I read the torque as the Hp on that dyno sheet...although the Hp still tapers off, it's nowhere near as drastic as the torque.

2. Those guys are just as sensitive about the KA as everyone else defending it in here.

The simple fact still remains, that was poor turbo sizing on the SR owner's part...that was not a fair comparison by any means. This dyno chart would be a much better comparison b/c it uses a t3/t4 (like the KA dyno), has no standalone, and no internal work at all.



Nice torque curve too!:-)

[WDRacing]

1500 views...thats alot of readers. It's unfortunate that we didn't nail down and debate any real specifics about either engine. Everything went a little off track...

I'd actually like to talk about the weaknesses of the SR's valvetrain. As well as talk to someone who actually has a high powered SR. I know I live in Japan, but I fell in with the Skyline croud as soon as I got here.

But Japan isn't America in any case, it's not like you guys can just stroll over to JUN or Veilside and ask for advice.

Perhaps when I get back to the states and see you guys at the track...

WD

[WDRacing]

OK, I learned 2 things:1. For whatever reason, I read the torque as the Hp on that dyno sheet...although the Hp still tapers off, it's nowhere near as drastic as the torque.

2. Those guys are just as sensitive about the KA as everyone else defending it in here.

The simple fact still remains, that was poor turbo sizing on the SR owner's part...that was not a fair comparison by any means. This dyno chart would be a much better comparison b/c it uses a t3/t4 (like the KA dyno), has no standalone, and no internal work at all.



Nice torque curve too!:-)

Those are some good numbers. I see his A/F never went beyond 12.2 it looks like. I've found the absolute best power while still remaining knock free was made at 12.7. Although I did run at 13 even a few times. But I also went through 5 RB20's in the last 3 years. But it sure is fun before they pop.

[cnichols]

Nils = My Hero

I have made the same point on other forums when I was arguing for the SR. I haven't had any offers from anybody in Japan or Australia or Europe to buy my KA24 for $2000. Hell, I can't give it away. There is a reason why the SR is so popular. It's not a fad, and it's not the cool thing to do. It's the best idea if you want to make the most power for the least money. Done Deal.

You can give it to me! Seriously...if you want to give it away, I'll come pick it up.

[Dori Dori]

1500 views...thats alot of readers. It's unfortunate that we didn't nail down and debate any real specifics about either engine. Everything went a little off track...

I'd actually like to talk about the weaknesses of the SR's valvetrain. As well as talk to someone who actually has a high powered SR. I know I live in Japan, but I fell in with the Skyline croud as soon as I got here.

But Japan isn't America in any case, it's not like you guys can just stroll over to JUN or Veilside and ask for advice.

Perhaps when I get back to the states and see you guys at the track...

WD

I don't know much about the 'weak valvetrain'. Most people just talk about it, but I haven't found anyone to actually say what the 'problem' really is. I have my guesses...either its the hydraulic lifters or that there is only one cam lobe for 2 valves...I don't really know any facts on this though.