KA vs. SR could get ugly

[matt0941]

Well do any people get good times in AutoX with their KAs here? Its always good to have some more answers.

[matt240det]

here's a thought: now i have the sr and i'm doing the swap soonsih so i would lean toward the sr BUT one short coming i can think of is that the sr has a very small oil pan with the pick up very close to the bottom, which would be a factor for auto x, granted you can upgrade to a greddy oil pan, but for htose going stock for stock that is imo one weakness of the sr motor

[WDRacing]

1/4 mile racing is a world completely seperate from all other forms of racing. In 1/4 mile racing, your wallet is your only limit. With enough money, any motor has potential to drag. In the past though, stroker motors have always done well in drag, so I'm sure the KA can do very well. Too bad nobody has put the money into making an all-out KA-drag motor, and because of this, I can't fairly say which would be better. Just a FYI, the fastest SR I know of is the 8 sec Jun car and I've seen quite a few 9-10sec silvia's with sr's from the Aussies.

Well put, this is the exact reason I'm going to build the worlds fastest KA powered 240. No one on these forums has enough dough to build a 240 to compete with companies like HKS. But no one does the KA. So aside from a few locals, all I have to do is run 2 9.5's in the same day.

Just to be able to say I have the fastest anything is worth the extra mile to me.

See you guys at the track in about a year.

WD

[Dori Dori]

Well do any people get good times in AutoX with their KAs here? Its always good to have some more answers.

KA's have great low end torque and since auto-x's never see high speeds or high gears, that's what really matters (your low end). I'm sure a stroked sr can do just as well too.

[Dori Dori]

Well put, this is the exact reason I'm going to build the worlds fastest KA powered 240. No one on these forums has enough dough to build a 240 to compete with companies like HKS. But no one does the KA. So aside from a few locals, all I have to do is run 2 9.5's in the same day.

Just to be able to say I have the fastest anything is worth the extra mile to me.

See you guys at the track in about a year.

WD

Go for it man. I wish you luck and hope you have a shop that can do lot's of custom fabrication!:)

[WDRacing]

I only need 3 things made custom from what I researched already. Intake, Exhaust mani and huge cams with no overlap. I already found the companies that will be glad to do it for a reduced price to have there names on the car. Not quite sponsored, but I'll take what I can get.

WD

[cnichols]

What company on the Exhaust manifold? I'm still deciding...the one I have is crap. HELP!

[syka24et]

I have read through all the threads again and its like the people who are pro sr seem to be anti ka like it's worthless. All sorts of little cute pictures etc. But the bottom line is the motor makes power. That dyno comparisson was not fair to me because you do no know the list of mods for the ka. We do know the sr had a stand a lone bb turbo and cams and intake. Vs the ka with a jwt ecu (junk in my opinion), turbo (bb?). stock intake s13 stock cams. and made only 10 more hp and less tq. Now remember the sr guys said that there is know aftermarket for the ka. But look at one built with off the self parts http://www.executivecleancar.c...s.jpg 381hp 371tq 17lbs pump gas with a Jwt ecu (junk) imagine with a standalone that elimintates the maf Now compare this http://www.enjukuracing.com/images/393hpkit.jpg at 21lbs A little more than 10hp on the ka BUT 25 less lbs of tq at a lower boost level. My point is this if you feel the sr is better fine, but dont say the ka is junk . It is a motor that just gaining popularity and has enormous potential. And it can hang with the sr. I know japan has 700hp this and 9 second that , but I am talking about us and the average backyard 2ner who does his own sr swap or ka kit.

[matt0941]

Why do you say that they JWT ECU rewrite is crap?

[Dori Dori]

You make a lot of references to my posts, so I'm going to start by saying, I never said anything about the KA being junk.

Next, I'd like to bring up a fact. The enjuku dyno chart that I posted up does not run a stand alone, does not have a bb turbo, and has completely stock internals. Just like the KA that I posted up that makes less power and torque. The mods are exactly the same on both cars with the exception of where they got their ECU's reprogrammed.

The KA chart that you posted is of a totally tricked out motor...lots of custom work, not off the shelf parts. It has pistons, rods, ported and polished head, custom valve job, nismo bearings, the Block was O ringed, crank work, ect ect...and it has less power and more torque. Oooh, more torque. And this guy is not your average backyard tuner. He's on his 4th motor now! He doesn't even use that motor (from your dyno chart) anymore.

I'm trying to compare apples to apples here. SIMILAR cars. If you want to compare fully built KA's to fully built SR's, you will lose and you know it so don't even try.

[Dori Dori]

Why do you say that they JWT ECU rewrite is crap?

He isn't the brightest star in the sky.

While a reprogrammed ECU is not ideal for maximum power, it's certainly not crap. Especially when he's talking about you 'average backyard tuner' who can't even figure out an SAFC...let alone a full standalone.

If you're goals involve getting your ECU reprogrammed by JWT, don't worry.

[Nils]

Stop Comparing Dyno Charts!

Comparing Dyno graphs is very misleading, there are too many factors involved to make the graphs on even playing field. Both cars would have to be dynoed at the same time at the same place with all the same mods... otherwise it is pointless. Outside temperature, altitude and over-all air quality could easily bump a HP number up or down.

This whole thread is like an evil circle.

Someone comes and says "sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the sr20det is better"Then someone else comes and says "No, the KA is better"

and it goes on like this into eternity.....bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla .....

Just get what ever damn engine you want to and be done with it! Go and race it and be happy.... no matter what anyone says on a forum you will have to make your own choices and learn for yourself.

=)

nils

(damnit... I told myself I wouldn't post in this thread again.... I am a sucker)

[Dori Dori]

There is no other way to compare without numbers...and I'm not saying either engine is better.

[Bill]

KA is better

I havent been beat by a SR yet

[themadscientist]

E15 rules!I would have to say that both motors have potential and it should be a case by case decision which one is "better" for each application. People told me my L20ET was junk till I started pacing next to L3.1 high comps and 1JZ turbo Mark IIs. They told me my CA18DE non-turbo project was a waste of time till I started chewing on RB20DETs with it. Blanket statements are so misleading, use your own judgement, weigh the Pros and Cons of each motor, look at what you want the engine to do and how much budget you have. I'm so poor I can't buy the "O" "R", I'm just po! This caused me to wrench on cheap to acquire "inferior motors", I regret nothing, I had fun and made a lot of people look stupid. Do't follow trends do what is best FOR YOU AND YOUR APPLICATION.

[syka24et]

I never quoted you and I felt up to now you made good points pro sr points. The reason I don't like the JWT ecu is 2 of my friend had bad experiences with them. Plus 800 with no adjustablility without sending it back to him (more money) does not appeal to me. If it works for you fine. But my post tend to reflect my own situation. I know stand alones are a little extra work but if I make any changes to the car its easier for me to go to a dyno for a few hours than to have my car out of commission for x amount of time for my ecu to come back. Like I said in my post the ka can make good power and is not junk.That was my point.

PS I must have really hurts someone's feelings for them to result to references to my level of my intellect. Sorry about that. This thread was about opinions and I offered mine minus all the BS. Why even read if your going to get emotionally envolved?? Oh and as far as me winning(in sr vs ka debate)this thread, is there some trophie or prize at the end I did not know I was in competition. Figured it was just opinions, anyway someone pleeeese close this thread.

[WDRacing]

Nah, not closing this one. It's been viewed over 2000 times. I figure somebody is reading don't you??

Nils made a good point and coming from a Supra guy, he knows all about dyno comparisons. What do a 450 and a 600 hp Supra have in common?? They both run 12's...lol.

Really though, I prefer track times personally. But that throws in driver, suspension and all those other variables.

Madsi, I have a spare "O" if ya need one man. I'll seeya out at Mizugama when my parts get here for my Miata project.

WD

[Dori Dori]

I never quoted you and I felt up to now you made good points pro sr points.

You made referance to the dyno charts that I posted..it's as good as a quote.

Quote »The reason I don't like the JWT ecu is 2 of my friend had bad experiences with them. Plus 800 with no adjustablility without sending it back to him (more money) does not appeal to me. If it works for you fine. But my post tend to reflect my own situation. I know stand alones are a little extra work but if I make any changes to the car its easier for me to go to a dyno for a few hours than to have my car out of commission for x amount of time for my ecu to come back. Like I said in my post the ka can make good power and is not junk.That was my point.[/quote]What exactly were your friends bad experiences? Where can I read about them, because for the most part, JWT has a good rep. Back up your claims man, don't just tell everyone it's junk. I would never use them though because I won't let my car get 'tuned' without putting it on a dyno. I'd get a piggyback before I got that. But to call it junk is just stupid...maybe it's not for you, but it's not junk. Also, for the last time, I, nor did anyone on this thread call your precious KA junk. The only one that called anything junk was you refering to the JWT...so your point was in vain.

Quote »PS I must have really hurts someone's feelings for them to result to references to my level of my intellect. Sorry about that. This thread was about opinions and I offered mine minus all the BS. Why even read if your going to get emotionally envolved?? Oh and as far as me winning(in sr vs ka debate)this thread, is there some trophie or prize at the end I did not know I was in competition. Figured it was just opinions, anyway someone pleeeese close this thread. [/quote]

1. Uhhh...:thinker...sorry dude, no hurt feelings here. Just a little confusion as to why you feel I am so emotional...:rolleyes2. You did offer BS by lying and posting that dyno chart that has 'only off the shelf parts'. BS!!!! There is so much custom work done to that motor it's not even funny.3. Competition? If you want to post dyno charts of fully built KA's trying to prove that they have this great torque and power, then I will post dyno charts of fully built SR's. It's simple. To trophies. No prizes.

[Nils]

Nils made a good point and coming from a Supra guy, he knows all about dyno comparisons. What do a 450 and a 600 hp Supra have in common?? They both run 12's...lol.

WD

ha ha ha... lol....

I love moderators with big mouths.

n

btw - you got a website or something with your racing accomplishments?

[Bill]

3. Competition? If you want to post dyno charts of fully built KA's trying to prove that they have this great torque and power, then I will post dyno charts of fully built SR's. It's simple. To trophies. No prizes.

Take a look at this...If anything the SR has more/better mods. For example a greddy intake manifold.

KA-T vs. SR similar mods comparision

[Dori Dori]

Dead link...

[bp2ooo]

From what i have heard the greddy intake manifold isn't all that good and you probably wouldn't see a big if any hp imptovement.

The biggest reason i am going with sr is it will probably end up being cheaper then trying to build a ka to its potential. I could be wrong, but after all this is just a hobby to the majority of us. I know it is to me.

[ADAMHU]

hmmm so far this has been an interesting discussion....

i would say...for the street ...who cares what engine you have..since they are rarely pushed...and eithermotor is fast enough and reliable enough for street use.

but IF you were building a race car...you would have to have rocks in your head not to go with the engine that has 400cc more displacement.....

i have driven both SR and KAT (own kat) and the SR is silky smooth, and revs very nice.......but the KA has brute noisy rough power......and it is the better choice...

of course this is not a discussion about money to do the KA correctly, or which can hold more power in stock form...this is about building up a road race machine..you would always go for the larger displacement if rules allow....

The whole reason this thread was made was because I asked a guy who was Turboing his KA to 400HP why he hadn't considered doing the SR swap as iut might be easier and cheaper. I am glad to see that others think like me.

Also I would have to agree with WDRacing being quite immature. His first post regarding my comment was that I was "full of ****" and that I was wrong. Then he erased all my posts.

Anyways.. I have nothing against the KA, I think it is relatively easy to do a KA to 240HP and have a nice torquey little machine. But I think if you want 400HP, who needs the hassle or the additional cost?

[Dori Dori]

hmmm so far this has been an interesting discussion....

i would say...for the street ...who cares what engine you have..since they are rarely pushed...and eithermotor is fast enough and reliable enough for street use.

but IF you were building a race car...you would have to have rocks in your head not to go with the engine that has 400cc more displacement.....

i have driven both SR and KAT (own kat) and the SR is silky smooth, and revs very nice.......but the KA has brute noisy rough power......and it is the better choice...

of course this is not a discussion about money to do the KA correctly, or which can hold more power in stock form...this is about building up a road race machine..you would always go for the larger displacement if rules allow....

Errr, wrong. Displacement is not the deciding factor for a road race motor. Did you know that the Sr20det is square? Equal bore and stroke or close to it is very desirable when choosing a road race car motor. The KA is a stroker motor, which is not very desirable for a road race motor.

[ADAMHU]

so is rod ratio and the KA has a rod ratio of 1.72 which is alomost ideal...since 1.75 is considered by many builders as ideal.....

and the bore of 89mm vs 96mm stroke...is not that bad either....

guess you have not been out racing much....you can keep your little 2.0l SR motor...and give me a 5.7 v8...and we will see who will be winning the races...

same thing for the 2.0l vs the 2.4l engine.....displacement will always win.... IMO

go tell john force that displacement does not matter ...if you want to compare drag racing instead of road racing motors....

[Bill]

Dead link...

Try it again the site was down.

KA-T Vs. SR comparision

As you can see the SR has the advantage too:

SR: 1. TecII EMS 2. JWT S4 cams 3. HKS 3037 4. Greddy intake manifold

KA:1. JWT chip (un-tuned)2. 91 stock cams3. T3/T04E4. Stock intake manifold

The SR made 357rwhp and 270rwtqThe KA made 347rwhp and 337rwtq

The KA had a much flatter power band; almost straight across

[ADAMHU]

how can the SR have the advantage of what is shown below? the car that is easier to drive will win...and that is the KA...why.... cause you have another 67ftlbs torque to pull you out of screw ups that you make while driving...its power band is flat...

flat=easy to drive....

the extra 10hp is nothing compared to the area under the graph that the KA has to work with....

Try it again the site was down.

KA-T Vs. SR comparision

As you can see the SR has the advantage too:

SR: 1. TecII EMS 2. JWT S4 cams 3. HKS 3037 4. Greddy intake manifold

KA:1. JWT chip (un-tuned)2. 91 stock cams3. T3/T04E4. Stock intake manifold

The SR made 357rwhp and 270rwtqThe KA made 347rwhp and 337rwtq

The KA had a much flatter power band; almost straight across

[Dori Dori]

Bill, bill, bill; please read the past few pages. This has already been discussed. Read all my posts and dyno plots. Oh, and when (or should I say if:rolleyes ) I finish with my car, I will drive to Tampa (I live in south FL) and meet you at whatever local drag strip you have there...if you accept the challenge of course:) It'll be a friendly challenge. I like 240's and it'll be fun to compare.

ADAMHU, this is going to be fun! First of all, your KA needs to have a good rod ratio...because your rods are so freaking long! If it didn't, you'd have a 4 grand redline or a lot of bent rods! Tell me, what's the purpose of a good rod ratio when you can't even take advantage of it?

And about your 5.7ltr V8 comment...I'll take the 1.5ltr turbo V8 from the F1 cars of the early 80's! You can keep your displacement.

[SR180SX]

the KA-T is that the stock internal? 15psi is really high for KA stock internal, I used to have KA-T and only boost 7psi.. I wonder how long 15psi will last for KA

SR are more fun to drive than KA:)

[Dori Dori]

how can the SR have the advantage of what is shown below? the car that is easier to drive will win...and that is the KA...why.... cause you have another 67ftlbs torque to pull you out of screw ups that you make while driving...its power band is flat...

flat=easy to drive....

the extra 10hp is nothing compared to the area under the graph that the KA has to work with....

Retard tuning a car = ugly *** dyno plot.:p Like I told bill, read the last few pages.

Oh, and why do you insist on saying one is better than the other? You sound like a kid.

Lastly, that torque curve is ugly. W T F are you looking at!:confused