ADAMHU, you seem to think that displacemt is the most important aspect of a motor. I made the referance to the F1 motor for a reason. It revs higher. You seem to think that this is not important (I should specify that this applies for turbo'd motors)...but let me ask you a question, if 'A' motor can only rev to 10000rpm and 'B' motor can rev to 18000rpm, which can take better advantage of a huge turbo? B. The lower displacement also plays into this factor b/c it allows for a smaller, lighter, higher revving engine. Just like how C-kwik made mention to the JGTC Supra (which actually won the JGTC last year)...they use the 3s-gte. This allows them to have the same power but with a lighter and much smaller engine. If you've ever seen under the hood pictures of these cars, the engines are tucked way far back in the bay for better weight distribution and cooling. My point is that size doesn't always matter.
Anyway, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. The thread starter wanted views and opinions onto the highs and lows of both motors...I tried to do that with as many facts and as little bs and flames as possible, but it seems like some didn't think so. C-Kwik is absolutey right in saying that this dispute is as good as beating a dead horse. Sorry if I pissed some people off.
KA vs. SR could get ugly
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WDRacing
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Turned out pretty interesting in the end, It's not always a bad thing if the people that are arguing two different points have a clue. Atleast most of the posts got away from, Well I just like the SR20 better cause its from Japan.
I think we did a good job overall here.Much thx to the folks that participated in a positive manner.
WD
I think we did a good job overall here.Much thx to the folks that participated in a positive manner.
WD
ok..let me ask this one question.....
IF F1 had no displacement limits.....do you think honda would have been building 1.6l 60psi turbo motors....
or....if small displacement is the best way to get from point A-B...then why are all top fuel dragsters using 600+ci blown v8's........they should all be building 18,000rpm 2l motors
YES i agree RPM is important in racing...ONLY because you are usually limited by RULES in the amount of displacement you can have....
would you rather have a 1200hp 1.6l revving at 18,000rpm ..or lets say...a
3000hp v8 revving at 8000rpm.....
the envelope of high power v8's has not been pushed as far with road racing, as smaller displacement engines.....
look at drag racing...7000hp+..with a bunch of yocals and low budgets...
can you imagine what honda could do with a 8litre engine........
IF F1 had no displacement limits.....do you think honda would have been building 1.6l 60psi turbo motors....
or....if small displacement is the best way to get from point A-B...then why are all top fuel dragsters using 600+ci blown v8's........they should all be building 18,000rpm 2l motors
YES i agree RPM is important in racing...ONLY because you are usually limited by RULES in the amount of displacement you can have....
would you rather have a 1200hp 1.6l revving at 18,000rpm ..or lets say...a
3000hp v8 revving at 8000rpm.....
the envelope of high power v8's has not been pushed as far with road racing, as smaller displacement engines.....
look at drag racing...7000hp+..with a bunch of yocals and low budgets...
can you imagine what honda could do with a 8litre engine........
To answer your questions, I don't know what honda would have done. I'm not honda. Drag racing is in a class of it's own. You make a lousy point mentioning drag racing mainly b/c I said the KA would likely make the better drag motor being that displacement and a long stroke do well in the drag world. Lastly, I don't think that the world would ever see a 3000 hp V8 spinning at 8000 rpm b/c I don't think it's possible.
Let me ask you some questions. Why do those fools over at Ferrari insist on using low displacement engines? Don't they realize that light-weight and high-rev's mean nothing in the world of performance... And why is it, in LeMans racing and JGTC racing, where rules allow for high displacement v-whatevers; the smaller, higher revving, boosted and non-boosted engines usually seem to come out on top? The only large N/A motor that I know of doing good in LeMans is Corvette, but their reign will come to an end if the Ferrari's ever get factory support IMO. Even if, by your reasoning, the Viper's should be on top in GT-S...but they're not.
Obviously you will always feel that size matters. Well, I completely disagree. I feel that certain engines will excel in certain scenarios and other engines do well in other scenarios. There is no perfect solution IMO.
Let me ask you some questions. Why do those fools over at Ferrari insist on using low displacement engines? Don't they realize that light-weight and high-rev's mean nothing in the world of performance... And why is it, in LeMans racing and JGTC racing, where rules allow for high displacement v-whatevers; the smaller, higher revving, boosted and non-boosted engines usually seem to come out on top? The only large N/A motor that I know of doing good in LeMans is Corvette, but their reign will come to an end if the Ferrari's ever get factory support IMO. Even if, by your reasoning, the Viper's should be on top in GT-S...but they're not.
Obviously you will always feel that size matters. Well, I completely disagree. I feel that certain engines will excel in certain scenarios and other engines do well in other scenarios. There is no perfect solution IMO.
lets look at a few scenarios
700cix8000x0.5x.90%/1728=1458cfm base in NA form....
lets boost it to a modest 20psi...
20+14.7/14.7=2.36PR
=3440cfm
it takes approx 1.5cfm to generate 1hp...
so with just some rough calculations...a mild big V8 on a good amount of boost...is at 2293 hp....
i think we could do better with
740cix9000x.5x95%/1728=1830cfm in base NA form....
and lets get a little silly with the boost..lets go to 30psi....
30+14.7/14.7=3.04PR=5563cfm...
thats around 3708hp
the real problem with a machine like this would be traction control, and finding enough areodynamic surface to keep the car on the road....
now....lets not even get into running alcohol..cause the power levels just go up from there (cause you do know that the 1.6l honda engine runs on a very exotic fuel....right?)
lets take a 2000lb race car....one has 1200bhp at 18000rpm...it has a power to weight of 1.66lbs per hp...
lets take a 2500lb race car ( for fun i added another 500lbs cause you think the engine will weigh alot more)...3708hp at 9000rpm..it has a power to weight of 0.67lbs per hp
now the most crucial thing.....which engine do you think will be more reliable over the long run.....
the boosted 1.6l running 60psi plus at 18,000rpm....
or the boosted V8...running 30psi running at 9000rpm....
which one do you think is going to be faster?
again...why do car makers not do these kind of motors....RULES......
the last real unlimited car series was the CANAM...and i think after that choas....we won't see another one like it..
i still don't see how you can dismiss displacement as a benifit?
700cix8000x0.5x.90%/1728=1458cfm base in NA form....
lets boost it to a modest 20psi...
20+14.7/14.7=2.36PR
=3440cfm
it takes approx 1.5cfm to generate 1hp...
so with just some rough calculations...a mild big V8 on a good amount of boost...is at 2293 hp....
i think we could do better with
740cix9000x.5x95%/1728=1830cfm in base NA form....
and lets get a little silly with the boost..lets go to 30psi....
30+14.7/14.7=3.04PR=5563cfm...
thats around 3708hp
the real problem with a machine like this would be traction control, and finding enough areodynamic surface to keep the car on the road....
now....lets not even get into running alcohol..cause the power levels just go up from there
(cause you do know that the 1.6l honda engine runs on a very exotic fuel....right?)lets take a 2000lb race car....one has 1200bhp at 18000rpm...it has a power to weight of 1.66lbs per hp...
lets take a 2500lb race car ( for fun i added another 500lbs cause you think the engine will weigh alot more)...3708hp at 9000rpm..it has a power to weight of 0.67lbs per hp
now the most crucial thing.....which engine do you think will be more reliable over the long run.....
the boosted 1.6l running 60psi plus at 18,000rpm....
or the boosted V8...running 30psi running at 9000rpm....
which one do you think is going to be faster?
again...why do car makers not do these kind of motors....RULES......
the last real unlimited car series was the CANAM...and i think after that choas....we won't see another one like it..
i still don't see how you can dismiss displacement as a benifit?
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C-Kwik
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ADAMHU wrote:ok..let me ask this one question.....
IF F1 had no displacement limits.....do you think honda would have been building 1.6l 60psi turbo motors....
or....if small displacement is the best way to get from point A-B...then why are all top fuel dragsters using 600+ci blown v8's........they should all be building 18,000rpm 2l motors
YES i agree RPM is important in racing...ONLY because you are usually limited by RULES in the amount of displacement you can have....
would you rather have a 1200hp 1.6l revving at 18,000rpm ..or lets say...a
3000hp v8 revving at 8000rpm.....
the envelope of high power v8's has not been pushed as far with road racing, as smaller displacement engines.....
look at drag racing...7000hp+..with a bunch of yocals and low budgets...
can you imagine what honda could do with a 8litre engine........
Unfortunately, you are comparing a 1200 HP motor to a 3000 HP motor. 2 completely different things. HP is indicative of how much leverage the torque of a motor can have. The higher RPM, the more leverage you can have as you can use lower gearing or stay in a lower gear longer than in a motor that revs less with the same amount of torque. Essentially, a 1200 HP motor does the same work as a 1200 HP motor regardless of displacement. Noone is saying that displacement can't add power. But Revs can compensate quite a bit. This is why you can calculate HP from your trap speeds and not torque. For a more detailed explanation read my post in this thread:
http://www.nissaninfiniticlub....ber=2
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Cyberkreig
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ADAMHU you know, you keep runing those numbers, and its really boring. No one has said you were wrong. You still miss the problem (or maybe its just a problem for me?). Money. If i could afford to put an RB26, a VG30, or the all mighty 2jz under the hood of my car I would. 'no replacement for displacement' but displacement costs.
ignoring all this v8 crap talk..
the ka does have .4l more displacement than the SR, giving it more 'potential' for someone with deep pockets. but it seems to ME that it is CHEAPER to pull 300hp out of an SR than it is a KA.
not to mention I get to tell all my friends that "i had a street-illegal japanese motor put in my car."
the ladies dig it.
ignoring all this v8 crap talk..
the ka does have .4l more displacement than the SR, giving it more 'potential' for someone with deep pockets. but it seems to ME that it is CHEAPER to pull 300hp out of an SR than it is a KA.
not to mention I get to tell all my friends that "i had a street-illegal japanese motor put in my car."
the ladies dig it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill "]Take a look at this...If anything the SR has more/better mods. For example a greddy intake manifold.
Man I can't count how many times the avaliable mods for the sr has been thrown in as an arguement on this thread. A Chevy small block has more mods than any other motor I have ever heard of. Why? Because its been around long enough and there is no shortage of them. How long has the SR been around? How popular is it? Of course there are lots of parts for it. They are mostly from Japan too so pay a grip and they are yours.
I personally am trying to decide for my self sr or kat. I really think that the most usefull bit of info in this entire thread was when someone said " the sr is silky smooth and revs and the ka has rough brute power."
What tastes better; oranges or potatos? Depends on how you prepare them. I like my oranges peeled, and my potatos mashed. See what I mean?
Maybe what would really salvage this thread and make it usefull to people like me who are trying to decide for themselvs what direction they will go with their projects is what kind of racing do you do? Drag, road, autox....just want a fast street car? I am an autoxer. I want an engine responds really fast when I stomp the throttle. My deal is that right now the KA in my s14 is totally stock. I hate it. The motor will not rev, its no fun to drive. So that is one big reason to go SR for me. Will the KA be happier to rev after I boost it and get a good exaust on? Any experience shared would be appreciated. Thanks!
Man I can't count how many times the avaliable mods for the sr has been thrown in as an arguement on this thread. A Chevy small block has more mods than any other motor I have ever heard of. Why? Because its been around long enough and there is no shortage of them. How long has the SR been around? How popular is it? Of course there are lots of parts for it. They are mostly from Japan too so pay a grip and they are yours.
I personally am trying to decide for my self sr or kat. I really think that the most usefull bit of info in this entire thread was when someone said " the sr is silky smooth and revs and the ka has rough brute power."
What tastes better; oranges or potatos? Depends on how you prepare them. I like my oranges peeled, and my potatos mashed. See what I mean?
Maybe what would really salvage this thread and make it usefull to people like me who are trying to decide for themselvs what direction they will go with their projects is what kind of racing do you do? Drag, road, autox....just want a fast street car? I am an autoxer. I want an engine responds really fast when I stomp the throttle. My deal is that right now the KA in my s14 is totally stock. I hate it. The motor will not rev, its no fun to drive. So that is one big reason to go SR for me. Will the KA be happier to rev after I boost it and get a good exaust on? Any experience shared would be appreciated. Thanks!
voltron wrote:Originally posted by Bill "]Take a look at this...If anything the SR has more/better mods. For example a greddy intake manifold.
Man I can't count how many times the avaliable mods for the sr has been thrown in as an arguement on this thread. A Chevy small block has more mods than any other motor I have ever heard of. Why? Because its been around long enough and there is no shortage of them. How long has the SR been around? How popular is it? Of course there are lots of parts for it. They are mostly from Japan too so pay a grip and they are yours.
I dont know what you are trying to say but the point I was trying to make was the greddy intake manifold gives the SR a big advantage in that comparission.
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TrunkMonkey
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SilviaLuvr
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umm...don't mean to rain on anyones paraid, but wasn't this post like over and over again in the past. i knew for a fac that i wasn't the only one to post up a thread called ka-t vs sr-det? but to me it's a sad thing that the ca was never made bigger, and it's also sad that nissan didn't make the ka aluminum blocks. i think the reason why nissan use the sr in autobacs is b/c they would get killed by the porshces and bmws in their class. but correct me if im wrong, the last time i checked the S15in autobacs ran off of the sr22 anyway.
u guys kept on talking about how rebuilding an engine is really expensive. so im wondering how much since mostlikely u can do it by urself. so are the parts really expensive or what.
anyhow goin back to the original question of which is better and all the only reason y i would choose the ka is because the horses come sooner while the all the horses in the sr comes in around 6000rpms. i dont know everything about this topic but i always thought that the its better when the power comes sooner and isnt 6000rpms like red lining.
with the displacement topic going around...i thought that the v4 get better low end than a v8 so isnt that less power faster but it is a no brainer that the v8 will at the end kill the little v4 cuz come on its a v4.
anyhow goin back to the original question of which is better and all the only reason y i would choose the ka is because the horses come sooner while the all the horses in the sr comes in around 6000rpms. i dont know everything about this topic but i always thought that the its better when the power comes sooner and isnt 6000rpms like red lining.
with the displacement topic going around...i thought that the v4 get better low end than a v8 so isnt that less power faster but it is a no brainer that the v8 will at the end kill the little v4 cuz come on its a v4.
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themadscientist
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