Because everyone that stated PS3 was better than 360 because of the bluray player can't say it anymore. People were justifying buying a $400 system for the bluray only...and it made sense for a while, considering that a bluray player cost $200-300....at $75, you can buy a 360 for $200, the bluray for $75, and now you've only spent $275 and have both components...

LBC Tail Overlays!

Quote, originally posted by ABM~Tuning »

hmm yeah that does make more sence.i dont think i would buy a ps3 just for the bluray its a consol youd be wasting your money if you only wanted it for bluray...

Quote, originally posted by marlin29311 »

Because everyone that stated PS3 was better than 360 because of the bluray player can't say it anymore. People were justifying buying a $400 system for the bluray only...and it made sense for a while, considering that a bluray player cost $200-300....at $75, you can buy a 360 for $200, the bluray for $75, and now you've only spent $275 and have both components...

Quote, originally posted by ABM~Tuning »

hmm yeah that does make more sence.i dont think i would buy a ps3 just for the bluray its a consol youd be wasting your money if you only wanted it for bluray...

True quite valid points all around but how do you justify spending $50/m for playing games online? They may have more games but more doesn't always mean they are better games. However, in the end there isn't any justification for spending more than you have to just to play your games among your peers after you've already gone out to the stores and spend $60 per games.

XBL is NOT $50/month. It's $50 for THIRTEEN months.

That said, I agree it's ridiculous to pay more on top of the purchase price just to get "out-of-box" functionality, especially since $60 for a console game is already out of hand.

4.08 VLSD, NICO 8-way ECU, full exhaust with custom headers,
Tokico Blues with Eibach springs, Stillen FSTB, 20mm RSB

World of Warcraft. Nuff said.

And yea - good correction - it's $50 for over a year, not a month. If it was a month, no one would pay it.

No. No. No.
I have pointed out a million times the countless ways in which that comparison is NOT valid. They are NOTHING alike. XBL does not produce content. XBL does not host games. It is a matchmaking service and online store...you're paying for access to a store where you BUY things for crying out loud.
WoW provides hosting, bandwidth and, most importantly, CONTENT for the $15/month. XBL does not do any of those things. WoW patches contain large amounts of new content. That has to have a price somewhere. New content for XBL games costs money ON TOP OF the XBL fees. And you're paying MS for XBL, not the game developers themselves.

The XBL/WoW comparison is stupid. The only similarity is that they're both a fee related to video games. Beyond that, they are entirely unalike.

Thats all I was aiming at. You pay $50+ for a game, then to have to pay a a monthly fee to play it.

Thank you, well said.

Quote, originally posted by MinisterofDOOM »

No. No. No. I have pointed out a million times the countless ways in which that comparison is NOT valid. They are NOTHING alike. XBL does not produce content. XBL does not host games. It is a matchmaking service and online store...you're paying for access to a store where you BUY things for crying out loud. WoW provides hosting, bandwidth and, most importantly, CONTENT for the $15/month. XBL does not do any of those things. WoW patches contain large amounts of new content. That has to have a price somewhere. New content for XBL games costs money ON TOP OF the XBL fees. And you're paying MS for XBL, not the game developers themselves. The XBL/WoW comparison is stupid. The only similarity is that they're both a fee related to video games. Beyond that, they are entirely unalike.

No explanation as to why you have to pay extra, whether it be $15/m or $50 the fact is after spending an average of $60 per game, you have to pay additional fees just to enjoy these games and that's all that I was getting at.

Quote, originally posted by dee_tymz_sl »

No explanation as to why you have to pay extra, whether it be $15/m or $50 the fact is after spending an average of $60 per game, you have to pay additional fees just to enjoy these games and that's all that I was getting at.

You can play the games without paying the Live fees, you just don't get to play online. get it straight people. Do you want a complete online experience or whatever you can get for free?

I rather pay to get better service.

I pay $3 a month for my Live. i bought a 13 month card for $34.00 plus tax.

For $3 a month I get these:
Gold Membership
Xbox LIVE Gold is a premium membership that lets you play games with friends online. Gold membership includes all the features of Silver (below) plus additional benefits and features.

Multiplayer games: Invite your friends into a multiplayer match and compete against each other or play co-op through expansive adventures.
Marketplace: Gold members get early and exclusive access to select game add-ons, demos, trailers, videos, and more.
TrueSkill matchmaking: For every ranked game you play, TrueSkill finds the best match for your skill level.
Parties: Invite a group of friends into an Xbox LIVE Party, then you can all join games and play and chat together.
Gamer feedback: Use the feedback system to select players you want to play with (or avoid) the next time you're online.
Watch Netflix movies: Xbox LIVE Gold members who also belong to Netflix can watch Netflix’s extensive library of streaming movies and TV shows right on their console at no additional charge.

plus
Silver Membership
Xbox LIVE Silver is a free service that allows any Xbox 360 user with a broadband connection to get online and interact with the Xbox LIVE community.

Gamer profile: Showcase your online reputation and achievements for your friends to see.
Avatar: Share the customized Avatar that represents your online identity.
Friends list: Add other Xbox LIVE users to your friends list and chat using the headset or send text messages.
Marketplace: Download free content from Marketplace such as demos, trailers, music videos, dashboard themes, and lots more.
Microsoft Points: Redeem Microsoft Points (available at retail stores or through Xbox LIVE) for extra game content, Arcade games, movies and TV shows, independent videos, and more.
Gold Weekends: Look for special offers from Xbox LIVE that let you experience the excitement of multiplayer gaming free.

it's well worth it IMO.

But, see, that's where I take issue. You CAN get "a complete online experience" for free. You just DON'T. My comparison to PC gaming's decades-old online capabilities has become even more useful thanks to MS themselves and GFWL. MS added GFWL "support" (in reality it's a curse and a crutch) to select PC games in hopes of spreading the reach of XBL because they figured more people would want access. But that's where it gets silly: GFWL is FREE while XBL costs $50 a year. But MS can't charge for it on the PC because there are countless alternatives to every facet of it. They also can't charge for it because it's a steaming pile of elephant dung, but that's beside the point. On the PC there have been "complete online experience" solutions for years. Look at Xfire and Steam. Both are free. Both offer most of XBL's services, less the gamerscore (which is pointless anyway). Steam even has a store. Steam does stats-tracking and scorekeeping. It's free. XBL is not. And the funny thing is that even though Valve profides Steam for free, it has still made them rich beyond their dreams. Microsoft doesn't need to charge for XBL, they're just greedy bastards.

Expense mitigation. Where do you think the money for console warranty repair comes from?

It couldn't be from the $10-$20 premium I pay for console games over PC version that goes straight into MS' pocket, could it? Or how about the money MS makes from each XBL software sale? Or on-demand media rental? Or the money they make selling peripherals and accessories for the console?

MS is NOT short on income to their gaming division. XBL is a cash-cow that's being milked at the consumer's expense. MS has plenty of other sources for funding their reliability issues.

..the service did just go down the other day for an hour or two. I felt lost.

LOL, You should have filed a complaint and ask for a refund...

Quote, originally posted by MinisterofDOOM »

But, see, that's where I take issue. You CAN get "a complete online experience" for free. You just DON'T. My comparison to PC gaming's decades-old online capabilities has become even more useful thanks to MS themselves and GFWL. MS added GFWL "support" (in reality it's a curse and a crutch) to select PC games in hopes of spreading the reach of XBL because they figured more people would want access. But that's where it gets silly: GFWL is FREE while XBL costs $50 a year. But MS can't charge for it on the PC because there are countless alternatives to every facet of it. They also can't charge for it because it's a steaming pile of elephant dung, but that's beside the point. On the PC there have been "complete online experience" solutions for years. Look at Xfire and Steam. Both are free. Both offer most of XBL's services, less the gamerscore (which is pointless anyway). Steam even has a store. Steam does stats-tracking and scorekeeping. It's free. XBL is not. And the funny thing is that even though Valve profides Steam for free, it has still made them rich beyond their dreams. Microsoft doesn't need to charge for XBL, they're just greedy bastards.

Hey there, MisterofDoom, you're hitting all the points I was getting at or wanted to make my friend and your response is pretty similar to the one I was going to give but seeing you already did I'll just say this. For those people who think paying to pay for a "full online experience" is worth it keep paying because you and I both know that you are being ripped off for a service that doesn't need to be charged for. Keep paying, I'm sure they appreciate all the extra funds you're contributing to them each month...

I guess when people know they are being ripped off they'll find an excuse to downplay the situation.

Modified by dee_tymz_sl at 3:35 AM 8/16/2009

.....PS3 for $299........hmmmmmmmmmmmm? w/ free online play......still a no for now. Price is very tempting....I do have a Blue Ray copy of Dark Knight already I just need a player.

As it stands I have too many games for my 360 already, I have about 40 with about 5 games that I barely started. So I guess I will be sticking with my 360.

That's exactly the point I addressed. It should not be NECESSARY to pay for convenience. It SHOULD be free. It COULD be free.

XBox 360 FTW!!!!!! <-for you PS3 heads

Quote, originally posted by bmike818 »

I wish it was free. XBox 360 FTW!!!!!! <-for you PS3 heads

yes :D

but i would like a PS3 for the streaming from my HD

EX:
NCAA Football 2008 (Xbox) but get the 09 version for PS3 this particular example works well with sports games but outside of that IDK. You might need to buy PS3 exclusives or whatever. If you never take the first step, you will NEVER get the ball rolling and it would be pointless to own a PS3. unless of course Microsoft stops making games then it might make sense.

at $299 I am still undecided if I want a PS3. I would probably buy another 360 before I buy a PS3. NOt because it's broken, I want to run mutltiple monitors when playing Forza

Sony does do everything....except the most important part.......GAMES!- show me the games!

....but if you just want to play games. errr Great games i would suggest the 360. If you do decide to get a 360, they have some 60gig and 120gig models with free games you just have to look for them. I think the free games are Fable 2 and Halo 3.

p.s. I prefer the 360 over the PS3 mainly because of the games and online support.

The Wii is an awesome console with some great games, but it won't play movies (not even DVDs) and the online support as far as actual games are concerned is crap.

I own a Wii and a 360.

But if your willing to splurge you might as well just pick up a PS360

not a bad deal considering what you get.

I am interested to see the sales figures this holiday season for both the 360 and PS3.

Quote, originally posted by bmike818 »

Xbox is only $50 a year, that's only $4.16 per month.

Bingo! Break it down to cost per month (or even per week or day) and its really not much money at all. Skip a trip to Starbucks and its paid for the month. Even if no content was added there would still be support staff to be compensated.

But they do add content, it just might not be content everyone is interested in, but its still there. OXM articles, Major Nelson's Minute, other promo pieces, dashboard themes, gamer pics. Does anyone out there think that MS doesn't track the downloads? I guarantee that someone is downloading them or MS wouldn't go to the trouble of putting them out there, they'd be exploring other options that people would rather have. And those bits don't put themselves up there on their own, so you have to pay someone to do it. One other word...

Demos. All those demos that you'd normally have to buy an issue of OXM to get are available instantly and well before OXM ever hits the magazine rack . If downloading and playing a demo prevents someone from purchasing one bad title then an XBL subscription has paid for itself.

People that don't want to pay the $50 can always go with XBConnect and its limited supported list of 360 games or the pretty extensive list (including the original Halo) of original Xbox games.

Quote, originally posted by bmike818 »

I am interested to see the sales figures this holiday season for both the 360 and PS3.

Does Sony have any exclusives for the Holiday/Q4 season? I'm sure that sales will suffer a bit due to the GT5 delay announcement.

Alpha Protocol and Assassin's Creed are multi-platform, but the 360 has Borderlands, Forza3 and something else I'm probably forgetting.

I don't wait for OXM for demos. I fire up firefox and download them for free. I can also find videos and "gamerpics" free with by browser, too. Steam has that crap. Free. No paying for a picture of a nod flame tank. That's free. Major's Minute? I can find a thousand videos along those lines, free. No cost. No money. Free. Strategy videos? Free. Sneak peaks? Free.

Plus, the dashboard SWARMS with ads. You can't tell me MS didn't make enough money to fund Major's Minute videos until the end of time from those Ford promos.

At the end of the day, regardless of justifications, excuses, or arguments, the fact is that EVERYTHING you can do with XBL can be done better for free on a PC. And that makes it really hard to accept paying any money for XBL. I DO pay for it. But I would prefer not to. And not because I'm cheap...but because it consists entirely (and only) of things I have come to expect for free.

And a console to pc comparison (even though its an oblique one)? Really? I've heard of a similar comparison, apples and oranges.

So, why do you game on a console, and especially on a 360? Assassin's Creed and Borderlands, two games you've expressed interest in are available on the pc and even though AC2 is delayed until 2010 on the pc its still releasing on 11/17 for the PS3. I must be missing something.

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

Everything? Does that include firing up a pc and playing Assassin's Creed 2 on November 17th? And a console to pc comparison (even though its an oblique one)? Really? I've heard of a similar comparison, apples and oranges.

Assassin's Creed 2 is a GAME. Not XBL. THAT is apples to oranges.

But the console to PC comparison (if you can call it that) is NOT apples to oranges. I'm not talking about hardware, or games, or computing power, or any of that stuff. We're talking about the ability to play games online, obtain additional content, download demos, and stay in contact with your friends. Make a checklist of everything XBL (NOT the xbox 360) does, and I'll reply with an equivalent checklist of FREE equivalents on the PC side. But the thing is, it doesn't NEED to be "XBL OR PC." If XBL was free, it wouldn't be a "vs" situation. Again: make excuses. Doesn't change the fact that everything XBL provides COULD be had for no cost to the end user.

You cannot argue this. MS has proven my point for me. Games For Windows Life is an EXACT equivalent of XBL for the PC. AND IT IS FREE WITH NO FEES AT ALL. So why is it okay for MS to charge for XBL on the 360, but then to turn around and slap a different name on it and charge nothing for it on the PC?

My take on "Games For Windows - Live" is that there are other alternatives to online pc gaming and MS doesn't control those roads. Because MS would gain nothing by charging for this its offered for free and makes it look like they are giving away something for free. Which they are, there is certainly some dedicated support staff for the service (the same goes for XBL).

Look at it this way, all those XBL paid subscriptions are subsidizing those using the Games for Windows Live for free.

So, I'm still wondering why you're a console gamer. And at this point I'm almost wondering why you aren't using a Mac.

And the AC2 thing was apples and oranges. I saw your []iXBL and my mind said Xbox...s'what I get for paying more attention to the Colts than to my posts. At least they're winning (handily)

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

So, I'm still wondering why you're a console gamer. And at this point I'm almost wondering why you aren't using a Mac.

I'm not a console gamer. I just own a few consoles. Probably 99% of my games library is PC titles. I only buy consoles when "necessary" in order not to miss out on games I want for them. Which is why I don't own a PS3 yet. I don't even really use my 360 that much. But I do like having it around for the occasion that I do want to use it.

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

There's no other alternative. Think of XBL as the only road leading to a popular destination. Wouldn't you charge a toll too?

If I did, I would say that complaints about the toll would be valid.

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

My take on "Games For Windows - Live" is that there are other alternatives to online pc gaming and MS doesn't control those roads. Because MS would gain nothing by charging for this its offered for free and makes it look like they are giving away something for free. Which they are, there is certainly some dedicated support staff for the service (the same goes for XBL).

I completely agree. But as I said before, that's justifying one failing with another. It might be the truth and even a valid reason. But that does not make the price any more tolerable.
Slightly off topic:
The funniest part is that NO ONE in the PC gaming world wants to come within ten miles of GFWL. I would actually be willing to wager (from the extreme negativity I've seen from almost everyone in regards to the service) that putting that logo on your box actually HARMS sales. That's largely due to it being massively broken to the point that it cripples game playability in many cases. MS talks about how they're hoping to "improve" windows gaming with the service, but in reality all it does is weigh down games, since it acts like XBL and restricts them in so many ways (which can be beneficial for a console setting, but is counter-productive on the PC setting). Even if it wasn't catastrophically broken, that would still be a downside, but being broken, it can make games unplayable by being restrictive AND broken at the same time.

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

I am so tired of the "XBL should be free" complaint. But they do add content, it just might not be content everyone is interested in, but its still there. OXM articles, Major Nelson's Minute, other promo pieces, dashboard themes, gamer pics. Does anyone out there think that MS doesn't track the downloads? I guarantee that someone is downloading them or MS wouldn't go to the trouble of putting them out there, they'd be exploring other options that people would rather have. And those bits don't put themselves up there on their own, so you have to pay someone to do it. One other word... Demos. All those demos that you'd normally have to buy an issue of OXM to get are available instantly and well before OXM ever hits the magazine rack . If downloading and playing a demo prevents someone from purchasing one bad title then an XBL subscription has paid for itself. People that don't want to pay the $50 can always go with XBConnect and its limited supported list of 360 games or the pretty extensive list (including the original Halo) of original Xbox games.

Ok you talk about downloading and MS tracking these downloads. Come on think about it, that's no reason to charge me my daily Starbucks change just so I'm able to have contents. Sony does the same thing for free and yes I will admit they may not have much contents as the 360 but nonetheless they do have good stuff for free, and you mentioned tracking- I'm sure it's tracked as well because if it weren't they wouldn't go through the troubles of putting the contents there and even updating it quite frequently. promo pieces - we all like to try demos at times, and yes demos are a good way from preventing us from buying a crappy game so I have to thank Sony for letting me try demo games, once again for free. Dashboard themes, yes, Sony changes their interface just as often as MS does and gamer pics, you can make avatar of yourself in the Sony community. Come on not much different except for the price, which becomes a big difference.

Quote, originally posted by BusyBadger »

My take on "Games For Windows - Live" is that there are other alternatives to online pc gaming and MS doesn't control those roads. Because MS would gain nothing by charging for this its offered for free and makes it look like they are giving away something for free. Which they are, there is certainly some dedicated support staff for the service (the same goes for XBL). Look at it this way, all those XBL paid subscriptions are subsidizing those using the Games for Windows Live for free. So, I'm still wondering why you're a console gamer. And at this point I'm almost wondering why you aren't using a Mac.

That right there is the explanation as to why you are being robbed but don't say you console gamers, say XBox 360 owner my friend.
I don't care for XBL or for whatever other reason why MS is charging you a fee to play per month because all this sweet abbreviations is simply robbing from your wallets.

Oh, BTW, I quit going to Starbucks so that I can save that money for my next game which will be Tekken 6. It's a good thing I don't have an XBox 360 now isn't it?

Xbox doesn't even have a Blueray player