Wrecked my car

[HongKongChick]

personally i like Italian food. So i would probably have to say the Alfredo fettucini. I get some of the recipes from cooks.com

u mean fettucini alfredo?! ehhe.

yea i love italian food too, though it's way too greasy to eat it at a rest. but at home, i use almost no oil.....

[DRT_240sx]

u mean fettucini alfredo?! ehhe.

yea i love italian food too, though it's way too greasy to eat it at a rest. but at home, i use almost no oil.....

yeah that's what i meant. I enjoy many types of food. I also like to try different types of food out. I just can't stand the fact of eating the same type of food everyday. So what bout you? what's your favorite dish? sorry for completely changing the topic from Wrecked car to food.

My apologies to everyone.

[HongKongChick]

yeah that's what i meant. I enjoy many types of food. I also like to try different types of food out. I just can't stand the fact of eating the same type of food everyday. So what bout you? what's your favorite dish? sorry for completely changing the topic from Wrecked car to food.

My apologies to everyone.

oops.. let's go to the noodle's thread

[DRT_240sx]

oops.. let's go to the noodle's thread

ok see ya there

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by HongKongChick "]my back..... started to lose control....knowing i shouldnt let off the gas, i didnt.

I don't want to sound like an a$$ or anything... but the person who told you this was WRONG!!! It is ONLY true if you are driving a FWD vehicle! If you lose the rear end in a FWD car... keep steady pressure on the gas. BUT in a RWD car (like our beloved 240's) keeping your foot on the gas will make your problem MUCH worse! You're forcing a slight traction loss into a HUGE traction loss. The instant you feel the rear-end give out or lose traction you should let off the gas. This will slow down the drive wheels and drag them back into grabbing traction.

The problem with the HUGE trend of FWD cars in the past 20 years, is that not enough people learn how to drive RWD before they jump in to one. Most driver's education classes focus on skid recovery for FWD and completely ignore the dfferences between the two.

then i pulled my e brake,

Okay.... that was another big "no-no". But then again, at that point you already wrecked your car... so it's rather inconsequential.

Also, bald tires = your fault. I'm totally not trying to sound mean, but keeping your car "road-worthy" is your responsibility. Imagine if you had smashed into another car and killed someone.... that would really suck to have on your concience. Get those tires changed and practice skid recovery in a parking lot on a rainy day. I've been to Oklahoma... there's plenty of flat space out there to work with!

[Aztek72]

No disrespect intended here but pulling the e-brake in a situation like that is about the worse thing one could do. E-brake + Spinout= Hello Mr. Guard-rail.

[TurboKA37]

the last 2 posts were alittle much considering the little amount of information we know about the accident. given the right situation i could definitly see the e-brake as a way to avoid a crash. yes i agree continuing to accelerate while losing grip will result in a rwd car to spin out more but sometimes u need the car to turn very quickly to avoid objects such as guard rails. i forget the details of the accident so im just responding to the last 2 posts.

[skydragoness]

generally i think letting off the accelerator, and pulling the e-brake is how you get a fwd in line. and how you get a rwd car out of line. i never yanked the e-brake in my car ever. that's for parking however, i did use to do it in my old corolla.

totally agree with you maine, about how everyone is taught/told how to recover from traction losses in the fwd context. the masses don't drive rwd anymore. so there's no explanation! bah!

screw driver's ed. we need racing school teachers!

edit: has anyone ever read 'Going Faster' by the SkipBarber Racing school instructors? excellent read--and easy to grasp! i highly recommend! i ought to re-steal that book from my friend.

[Aztek72]

the last 2 posts were alittle much considering the little amount of information we know about the accident. given the right situation i could definitly see the e-brake as a way to avoid a crash.

Hmmm...I'll have to disagree on this one. Next time I post a response I may have to type a disclaimer saying in no way am I trying to be offensive or insensitive. But enough with opinions, let's look at facts.

Having worked for an EMS I've seen more than my share of accidents attributed to vehicle negligence (as Q45tech constantly stresses) and/or driver incompetence. Let's say you were a parent and found out your child was involved in a deadly wreck because another driver neglected to maintenance their vehicle to at least an adequate level. Riding on bald tires, in the rain, in a RWD vehicle without mastering and knowing the limits of your vehicle is outright dangerous to yourself and others on the road. Not knowing how to react in an emergency situation in a car not properly equipped only compounds the problem.

I've worked many graveyard shifts to know that hundreds of accidents could have been avoided had someone had a decent set of tires, made sure they had brake pads or a knuckle assembly wouldn't buckle loose.

In today's world, cars are every bit a dangerous weapon as they are a mode or transportation.

Still I didn't mean to offend and glad HKC is doing fine.

[TurboKA37]

well lets look at my facts: when HKC started to slide out it became an emergancy situation. an emergancy situation calls for an emergancy brake!! so i see nothing wrong with it

(kidding)

[skydragoness]

your points are well taken Aztek,---if not miscontrued by others--it definitely was a situation that had a catalyst.

it's surprising and *blatantly* obvious how much tires have an impact on evasive maneuvers. being they are what connect the car to the road, you don't want to skimp in that area. and i'm guilty of that. learned my lesson the hard way..

after i had my 180 situation, i decided to go out on rainy nights to abandoned parking lots/empty lots in undisclosed locations to pratice sliding and learning on how much grip my previous tires were giving me and at what point they gave up (which was low, cause dunlops aren't really known for wet traction, all 4 had decent tread depth though) practicing in parking lots in foul weather definitely helps a lot. i suggest going by yourself, or else you'd attract the cops, although if it's raining enough, the only noise should be from your engine. hehe.

[MrFox]

The instant you feel the rear-end give out or lose traction you should let off the gas. This will slow down the drive wheels and drag them back into grabbing traction.

The above is bad advice IMHO.

HKC reacted correctly by keeping the gas on.

Letting off the gas will drag the drive wheels, which will not "drag them into grabbing traction". It will...

A) Load up the back tires with engine braking, and

B) Transfer weight forward, putting even less weight on the back tires.

You WILL snap the car into severe oversteer, probably end up in a fishtail and spin. Try it in the wet sometime and you'll understand. It is counter-intutive to keep gas on, but it works.

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by MrFox "]This is bad advice...

If you are referring to your post, then yes... you're correct.

HKC reacted corrected by keeping the gas on.

Okay... i'm just going based on her description of the events.... and that would tend to prove you wrong. Her reaction obviously didn't correct the spin out. From my VAST experience with RWD vehicles and traction loss her actions seem to have made the situation worse.

Letting off the gas will drag the drive wheels,

exactly. It seems like you understand

which will not drag them into grabbing action. It will...

A) Load up the back tires with engine braking, and

Yep... so far so good...B) Transfer weight forward, putting even less weight on the back tires.

Exactly what you WANT! The LAST thing you need with a wild rear end slide is to transfer MORE weight to the part of the vehicle that is sliding out of control!

Ooops, it appears I've spoken to soon. Apparently you don't understand. It WILL infact slow the drive wheels which is infinately more likely to make them grab traction than spinning them faster! You would have us believe that spinning a tire FASTER will make it grab the ground. Have you ever seen a burn-out at a drag strip? They don't regain traction by speeding up... this is pretty much common sense. Ever spent any time off roading in the mud or slickrock? If you have you'd know that wheel spin is your enemy.

To illustrate my point:

When you begin to lose the rear end, this means the REAR tires are spinning FASTER than the front tires. If you then allow the rear tires to maintain this rotation (or even worse, hit the gas and speed them up)... they will almost always come around in front of the FRONT wheels! They have nowhere else to go! The only reasonable solution is to let off the gas (not hitting the brake) and allow the rear wheels to slow their rotation and pull the rear of the vehicle back in line with the front. You are very wrong in your theory and there isn't anything more I can say about it. You WILL snap the car into severe oversteer, probably end up in a fishtail and spin.

This is EXACTLY what keeping on the gas DID in this case and 99% of the time it will garner the same results.

Try it in the wet sometime and you'll understand.

Trust me... I have.... not that I need to defend myself... but I've been driving RWD vehicles of all sorts since my very first car. I know a bit about what makes traction and what loses traction.

[MrFox]

Please forgive the tone of my previous post. I totally started it off on the wrong tone with that first sentence. However, I still stand by my point that letting off the gas in HKCs situation will make matters worse rather then better.

Quote » Have you ever seen a burn-out at a drag strip? They don't regain traction by speeding up. [/quote] Quote » Ever spent any time off roading in the mud or slickrock? If you have you'd know that wheel spin is your enemy. [/quote]

But notice that letting off the gas (or braking) while turning will kick the tail out much more than spinning the wheels. Especially in dirt, mud or rain. Its a totally different form of oversteer than your burnout box example, and cannot be recovered by letting off the gas because it was not caused by excessive wheelspin, but rather the lack of load on the back tires.

Quote » Trust me... I have.... not that I need to defend myself... but I've been driving RWD vehicles of all sorts since my very first car. I know a bit about what makes traction and what loses traction. [/quote]

I'm sure you are a very experience driver. But experience is no subsitute for understanding. I'm simply speaking from my own understanding of the situation based on my study in vehicle dynamics, from hands on experience at driving schools and on the road, wet, dry, paved or unpaved. I'm eager to hear your reply, I don't mind if I end up being the the one who ends up learning something from this.

[MrFox]

Addition:

Quote »You WILL snap the car into severe oversteer, probably end up in a fishtail and spin.This is EXACTLY what keeping on the gas DID in this case and 99% of the time it will garner the same results. [/quote]

I believe she spun after she hit her tail on the guard rail. If she spun before, she might've hit nose first.

Quote »The LAST thing you need with a wild rear end slide is to transfer MORE weight to the part of the vehicle that is sliding out of control![/quote]

More weight on the sliding rear end increases the available traction on those wheels, placing them back inside the traction circle. More weight transfer on to a spinning/sliding tire will stop it from spinning/sliding. Again, we have a totally different situation than power oversteer. Powering (or not lifting) through a skid pushes your car in the right direction, prevents lift throttle oversteer, and allows excellent chances of recovery by countersteering. She did the correct thing given the situation... there just wasn't enough luck/median space for her to recover.

[nlzmo400r]

you've got to love responsible debates, none of this 'you suck and you're gay', well, 'U suck!' crap, you both have very valid points, but to an extent mr FOX is right, atleast about the weight transfer. If u transfer enough weight to the rear wheels before TOTALLY losing them, it will squash the tires to the road more, giving it more traction. However, if u transfer the wheels to the back end that is already sliding out of your control, then all that added weight is just giving it more intertia to spin. The same goes with the front, if u had weight the front wheels after the car is out of control, it will help somewhat by taking away inertia in the back end, and loading down teh front tires helping aim the car. If you put all the weight in the front end before teh back tires are out of control, the rear will lift up (no, not off the ground, but u get the point) and you'll have less weight on the tire trying to hit the road= not good.

[skydragoness]

ah. it's really hard to give advice when it comes to situations like these.

i'll just quote from my experiences in wet parking lots, blipping the throttle mid-turn, pitches the car sideways, countersteering in the begining of the slide causes 360's and 180's. .. knowing when to grab the wheel is crucial. letting off the gas (not a sudden let off, but gradual) *does* help. as does not using too much steering input.rwd cars are like shopping carts in that effect.

it really depends on the driving conditions as well-- IMO, staying on the throttle in a rwd car, on wet pavement, that's beginning to get squirrelly can only instigate a spin-out. but at the same time too much steering wheel input is what directs you into that spin.

my conclusion is steering wheel input or lack-there-of makes a huge difference. throttle is what gets you into it, and out of it.

if that made any sense

[Mr1der]

my personal experiences in rain with bald tires, I had to let off the gas to even think about catching traction, otherwise the wheels would just keep on slipping, this in a car with a killer LSD too, most of the time when I even think about breaking traction, I'll get all kinds of hop from the tires trying to bite, I can hardly cut donuts in the rain with good tires now, snow and Wal-Mart parking lot is a completely different story though....

[HongKongChick]

wow..i did not come here for a day, and it's caos....

ok, obviously i dont know much about my car given that i have only driven it for a month and only had gotten my liscence for a few months.

and my car does NOT have LSD, had two pretty bald back tires (not there anymore, bought some new ones)

on the highway, doing 50, back started to slide....

did not let off the gas, left rear hit the median ( i was pretty close to the median anyways), then spun out, then pulled e-brake.

so based on that info, what should i do in that situation?

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by MrFox "]Please forgive the tone of my previous post.

Sure thing... and I apologize for my overreaction. Long day at work + neck pain = bad mood!

But notice that letting off the gas (or braking) while turning will kick the tail out much more than spinning the wheels.

It has been my experience that braking or hitting the gas in this situation will have surprisingly similar results.... none of which are good. But, I can ONLY speak from experience. I have lived and driven in New England my entire life, in all manner of RWD and 4WD vehicles. Not to mention hill climb and off road racing.

Its a totally different form of oversteer than your burnout box example,

Agreed.

and cannot be recovered by letting off the gas because it was not caused by excessive wheelspin, but rather the lack of load on the back tires.



This I must disagree with. The only way a rear-end spin out can be caused at 50mph in a straight line (as far as I can tell) is by excessive wheel spin OR braking. Now, she didn't mention that she had hit the brakes so I can only assume that the rear tires were LOADED and spinning faster than the fronts... causing them to come out of line with the front. Therefore the solution would be to gently ease off the gas and allow them to slow to the pace of the front tires... pulling the rear back into alignment. Also, shifting some of the weight off the rear (the part that is losing control) and placing more on the tires that still control the vehicle. This is also not to negate the obvious importance of counter steering into the slide. This, as sky so eloquently mentioned, is vital. Steering input can make or break your recovery.

The other possible explanation would be TURNING, in which case bald tires would certainly be the culprit on wet pavement. Now.... if turning initiated the spinout, then the nearly perfect weight distribution of the 240 would tend to leave the outside wheels equally loaded and the bald rears would have created the slide. In this case it's hard to say what would have worked. I still believe that easing off the gas would tend to shift the weight forward and pull the rear into alignment.... but again... that's hard to say... I always have good tires on my vehicles. I'm sure you are a very experience driver.

Experienced.... I dunno... maybe. But, my Grandmother has been driving for over 60 years and even in her prime I wouldn't set foot in a car with her. Experience means little.

But experience is no subsitute for understanding.

Again.... we agree. I'm eager to hear your reply, I don't mind if I end up being the the one who ends up learning something from this.

Thanks.... umm I think. I've never studied on the issue... so obviously I can learn some things as well.

[HongKongChick]

but i thought that even a slight shift will make a big difference in a RWD car specially with one that does NOT have good tires:(

um...so there is no sure way or absolute right or wrong..kinda still puts me in confusion a bit....

[MrFox]

The grip each tire has depends its coefficient of friction with the ground and the amount of weight placed on it by the car. F = uN!Typical street tires can pull somewhere around 1.0-1.5g in the dry.

The grip of most tires (drag tires are the exception) is about the same in any direction. Thus a circle is used as a visualization aide to show the avaliable amount of grip each tire has. The outside edge of the circle represents the limits of adhesion - Beyond this line, the tire is no longer in static contact with the ground and will slide in any direction as it pleases.

This is HKCs traction circle, rear tires, as she drove at steady 50mph on the highway, straight and true.

continued...........

[MrFox]

The red arrow is the amount of forward thrust her tires are pushing to overcome the cars rolling resistance and aero drag. The blue arrows are the amount of side grip the tire are providing to overcome directional instabilities caused by various factors: uneven power distribution, bumps, slope, wind gust, etc...

continued.....

[MrFox]

From her description, HKC probably hit a patch of standing water or slick asphalt (its not her fault, its the asphalt!) . Once she started hydroplaning, the tire's coefficent of friction was drastically reduced, resulting in the shrinkage of traction circle like this.

continued.....

[MrFox]

She had suddenly exceeded her traction limits due to the slick road surface. Reducing power will shorten the red arrow, but her tires now do not have enough lateral traction (blue arrows) to correct any deviation from straight and true driving. Letting off the gas will make matters worst. The red arrow will point down, decelerating the car causing a weight transfer forward. This will cause furthur shrinkage of the rear tires traction circle.

continued....

[MrFox]

The size of the rear tire traction circle has to increase (at the very least not get any smaller) in order for the rear tires to provide enough lateral force for her to recover. Either u or N needs to increase for this to happen. Getting better tires or finding a grippier road surface will increase u. Transfering more weight on the back by accelerating will increase N. However accelerating will cause other problems...

continued....

[MrFox]

Even though powering through oversteer can work, lets not get into why it does work for now (another can of worms). My point was that letting off the gas will not be benificial in recovery. Maintaining weight on the rear wheels is critical to keeping control in a slide.

So HKC now has her rear sliding, now she must countersteer to recover. As sky pointed out steering input is very important. If there was no countersteer after an incipent spin...\

continued....

[MrFox]

The fronts will exert a side force perpendicular to the wheel because they are still rolling. But the rear tires will drag against the direction of vehicle motion, and the force they produce is much less than the front (because friction of a sliding tire is much lower than a rolling tire with a stationary contact patch witht he road). The stronger blue arrows will rotate the car clockwise around the vehicle CG (orange dot). The purple arrows will try to fight the rotation, but they are not strong enough because of the lack of traction in the rear.

continued.....

[MrFox]

Countersteering into the slide will get the front tires rolling in the same direction as the sliding vehicle. This will eliminate the front blue arrows. The rear purple arrows are now able to rotate the car counterclockwise and straighten everything out. The size of the purple arrows, which are the forces of recovery, are propotional to the amount of weight that is on the rear wheels. Again F=uN!

continued....

[MrFox]

Actually, thats it... no more continues!

Its chaos, HKC. Caos was from the three kingdoms, which was in chaos.

do u like my traction circle smily?