What do you believe in?
a leaf: if u study weather patterns and the earth's rotation around the sun and the elements that make up a leaf at the atomical level it is easy to understand how a leaf changes colors. the human eye: over millions of years every animal has evolved from the same single cell organism from different theories (i believe in darwinism). and if all we have to truely mean when we say it is "im sorry" then why would we spend time worshiping god when we could spend that time on things we enjoy more (of coarse some people find the time that they spend worshiping god quite enjoyable)
bdawg46 wrote:Yes, even you dont believe in Hell, it still exist. whether YOU believe in it or not. sorry if that hutrs, but thats the best way i can put it
I find it truly irritating when one - lacking any empirical evidence - would hold their beliefs out as the true belief. While I wholly respect your right to believe that, as I stated before, you cannot make an argument on faith. Thus, it is your argument, not your belief I find fault with. I can just as forcefully make the same argment based on the Vedas or the Quran, or my own personal pholosophy as you have just made. However, if I were to make a statement as such. I would preface that statement with "my personal unsubstantiated belief is..." In recognition that in a logical argument I could not defend that belief.
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TurboKA37 wrote:(of coarse some people find the time that they spend worshiping god quite enjoyable)
ABSOLUTELY!!! And there is nothing wrong with that at all.
I have two sisters, who disagree (gently) with me about my beliefs. They like to pray and they have both told me that it "feels good" when they do so. Calms them down and allows them to feel better about life. Particularly on a rough day. Good!!!
Z
P.S. It is late for me at work, and I have to go home. So I havta bow out of this discussion for now ... will continue later if I get a chance. Regards to all!
TurboKA37 wrote:and if all we have to truely mean when we say it is "im sorry" then why would we spend time worshiping god when we could spend that time on things we enjoy more (of coarse some people find the time that they spend worshiping god quite enjoyable)
I personally enjoy mass. To me, taking part in mass is one of the most healthy and useful things I can do for myself. I have crappy weeks and towards the end of each mass, I start feeling a lot better. If a person worships but doesnt enjoy it, he shouldnt be worshipping, or he should do it a different way under different circumstances....
I understand you completely, but Jesus Christ himself said "i am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to Hevean except through Me" That is enough for me, he is the ONLY way, there simply is no other way and i understand it is hard to accept it, but i cannot ignore it sa anything else but fact and truth.
Also, empirical - releying on practical experience. i have enough practicale expierience in my own life ot know what i believe is true. it takes great faith at start, but once u commit ot Jesus, there simply isnat a better way to live life. and religion isant to practical anyway. will exlplain further later iy u want me to, i must leave.
Also, empirical - releying on practical experience. i have enough practicale expierience in my own life ot know what i believe is true. it takes great faith at start, but once u commit ot Jesus, there simply isnat a better way to live life. and religion isant to practical anyway. will exlplain further later iy u want me to, i must leave.
"we are saved through God's grace and mercy, not by works, so that no mna can boast" It actually says something like belief AND good works are necessary.(At least in my bible, I don't know how the translator of your protestant bible interpreted things..)
"Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we could have eternal life with Him, He conquered sin, which no human can do. and we all sin, that is a clear fact ." Almost nothing in this debate is a fact, and Jesus dying for our salvation is most certainly not a "clear fact". It is a fact, however, that there was a man named jesus who was crucified in the manner stated in the bible. This has been backed up through ancient Roman records. Also note that Jesus fully man as well as fully divine(unless your particular denomination doesn't teach this)
Can I ask what your specific Christian religion is? I'm gonna guess its something Calvin based...
"Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we could have eternal life with Him, He conquered sin, which no human can do. and we all sin, that is a clear fact ." Almost nothing in this debate is a fact, and Jesus dying for our salvation is most certainly not a "clear fact". It is a fact, however, that there was a man named jesus who was crucified in the manner stated in the bible. This has been backed up through ancient Roman records. Also note that Jesus fully man as well as fully divine(unless your particular denomination doesn't teach this)
Can I ask what your specific Christian religion is? I'm gonna guess its something Calvin based...
umm i am a Christian... dont know any other way to say it. I use the NIV version of the Bible most the time. and by what i meant was a fact is that we all sin. and yes Jesus was fully man and fully god. sorry i dont type good i guess and type fast and dotn read over what i type.
U might want to read over your Bible agains as we are saved by grace, NOT works. Our good deeds and works are friut of our faith in Christ as Lord. Meaning good deeds just coem if we do as in God ( his word, the Bible) tell us. OUr good deeds, our fruit, show others that we are different, that God is working in us, if you have no fruit u might want to question if you really belive in Jesus, if you really mean it in your heart.
U might want to read over your Bible agains as we are saved by grace, NOT works. Our good deeds and works are friut of our faith in Christ as Lord. Meaning good deeds just coem if we do as in God ( his word, the Bible) tell us. OUr good deeds, our fruit, show others that we are different, that God is working in us, if you have no fruit u might want to question if you really belive in Jesus, if you really mean it in your heart.
i thought the shroud was a hoax? didn't someone examine it from the church and determine that it was dye on the fibers of the shroud and not blood?
Sorry i just couldn't stay away...
I believe some peoples minds are quite capable of understanding the nature of something always having been around... Heck MOST hard sci-fi guys would be totally open to the idea and be able to grasp it... i think there is some sort of creator.
for him time is meeningless. He may infact be 'created' in the future. When things get small all the rules change.
I look at god as sort of a programmer. WAY WAY down deep in our universe things are very simple. Protons, Electrons, Strong forces, electromagnetic forces exc... Those are like 0's and 1's of the universe but fortunately "god" "God" "Creator" had a system with more than 2 states to work with (possibly an infinate number of states whitch is why it's so complicated to do anything with 0's and 1's but so easy with slightly higher level thinking ie...)
Next comes the mollecular level... I believe that the "Creator/God/god" designed this level so that interfacing with the universe would be less bulky. Thats why there are so few elements and even fewer truley exotic forms (neutroniumm, true plasma, exc) So in my idea the periodic table is sortof like Assembly language (if you know what that is)
now you take those mollecules and make up chemical compounds. That stuff is high level programming language like C, Fortran, and Java (i think the universe is written in C personally
)
The reason i think that this example has such pertinance is the fact that as logical humans we have approached the problem in mutch the same way. We looked at the complexities of the behaviour of electricity in semiconductors and created a useful and interesting thing by adding several layers of abstraction.
If you want the electrons in the computer vs. universe theory then you can talk about sub atomic particles. They don't seem to follow the rules at all but are predictable enough to build on.
I know the univers isn't one big computer... thats not what i'm saying at all. But from what i see it looks like some entity has taken the complex and flexible rules that govern our universe and built apon them the environment that currently exists.
Becuase deep down those rules are only based on the expected behaviour of unpredictable particles you will have interesting things happening sometimes. It will however be very rare. (notice how even Windows is more stable nowadays?) The universe has been through thousands and thousands of "patches" to arrive at the mostly stable thing we see today.
See i told you guys you would think i'm crazy. I hope you can understand my reasoning and at least get a kick out of it
Sorry i just couldn't stay away...
I believe some peoples minds are quite capable of understanding the nature of something always having been around... Heck MOST hard sci-fi guys would be totally open to the idea and be able to grasp it... i think there is some sort of creator.
for him time is meeningless. He may infact be 'created' in the future. When things get small all the rules change.
I look at god as sort of a programmer. WAY WAY down deep in our universe things are very simple. Protons, Electrons, Strong forces, electromagnetic forces exc... Those are like 0's and 1's of the universe but fortunately "god" "God" "Creator" had a system with more than 2 states to work with (possibly an infinate number of states whitch is why it's so complicated to do anything with 0's and 1's but so easy with slightly higher level thinking ie...)
Next comes the mollecular level... I believe that the "Creator/God/god" designed this level so that interfacing with the universe would be less bulky. Thats why there are so few elements and even fewer truley exotic forms (neutroniumm, true plasma, exc) So in my idea the periodic table is sortof like Assembly language (if you know what that is)
now you take those mollecules and make up chemical compounds. That stuff is high level programming language like C, Fortran, and Java (i think the universe is written in C personally
)The reason i think that this example has such pertinance is the fact that as logical humans we have approached the problem in mutch the same way. We looked at the complexities of the behaviour of electricity in semiconductors and created a useful and interesting thing by adding several layers of abstraction.
If you want the electrons in the computer vs. universe theory then you can talk about sub atomic particles. They don't seem to follow the rules at all but are predictable enough to build on.
I know the univers isn't one big computer... thats not what i'm saying at all. But from what i see it looks like some entity has taken the complex and flexible rules that govern our universe and built apon them the environment that currently exists.
Becuase deep down those rules are only based on the expected behaviour of unpredictable particles you will have interesting things happening sometimes. It will however be very rare. (notice how even Windows is more stable nowadays?) The universe has been through thousands and thousands of "patches" to arrive at the mostly stable thing we see today.
See i told you guys you would think i'm crazy. I hope you can understand my reasoning and at least get a kick out of it
Actually, I wasn't much of a believer in the shroud until my teacher read and handed us an article on recent studies that had been done.
Basically, some scientist tests the material and discovered that it had been turned into a super-ordered state. Something that intigrates itself, rather than disintigrates as it ages. They said something like.. these super ordered pieces can travel at the speed of light and through time or soemthing like that. Its sounds confusing, but I'll try to find something about it online as I lost the copy of the article she gave me.
Basically, some scientist tests the material and discovered that it had been turned into a super-ordered state. Something that intigrates itself, rather than disintigrates as it ages. They said something like.. these super ordered pieces can travel at the speed of light and through time or soemthing like that. Its sounds confusing, but I'll try to find something about it online as I lost the copy of the article she gave me.
"The STURP scientists concluded that the image on the Shroud could not be the work of a painter or artist, for it is too thin, & lies only on the very topmost surface of the threads, nor has it soaked into or left any deposits between the threads as would happen had it been painted. The scientists also agreed that the dark stains that permeated the image were human blood. But the question that haunts them & that has eluded their grasp is, what then could have created this mysterious image? The general consensus is that the molecular composition of the image is similar to faint scorch of some kind, yet the scientists cannot determine by what means such a delicate image could have been made. It is now being suggested that an unknown energy force was applied to the lifeless body wrapped within the Shroud, & that a burst of extremely high intensity heat or light for an extremely short duration--probably milliseconds--somehow caused the Shroud to become a primitive polaroid film. Robert Dinager of the Los Alamos scientific laboratory in New Mexico stated,
"It seems as if the image possibly came from some short-term pulse of energy. You could say it was instantaneous. It would have had to be a pretty good amount of energy, but not too much or it would have destroyed the cloth."
For those who believe the Bible, the answer to this riddle is apparent: At the climactic moment that Jesus dead body was quickened to life, this "photograph" was left behind on His burial cloth as a silent witness of the greatest miracle that ever took place: The resurrection of Christ! "
That's not exactly what I was looking for, but I searched for a few minutes and found this site which I got the excerpt from http://heavenlyparadise.cjb.net/shroud/shroud1.htm
"It seems as if the image possibly came from some short-term pulse of energy. You could say it was instantaneous. It would have had to be a pretty good amount of energy, but not too much or it would have destroyed the cloth."
For those who believe the Bible, the answer to this riddle is apparent: At the climactic moment that Jesus dead body was quickened to life, this "photograph" was left behind on His burial cloth as a silent witness of the greatest miracle that ever took place: The resurrection of Christ! "
That's not exactly what I was looking for, but I searched for a few minutes and found this site which I got the excerpt from http://heavenlyparadise.cjb.net/shroud/shroud1.htm
I dissagree with the thing (posted by bdawg46)about everybody being 'saved' by merely confessing that Jesus is the Christ. But yeah everybody is saved regardless. Thanks to the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, we can all be ressurected and live forever just as he was.
But being saved from all the bad stuff we've done in this life, thats not so easy. Being saved from death is a free gift from God. To what degree of glory you live the rest of your eternity in, and what degree of power you have, that all depends on what you do in this life. The bible says to confess that Jesus is the Lord, but merely confessing isn' t enough. What the bible, and a lot of other religious volumes indicate is that you need to be baptized. Not just any baptism, but a real baptism like Jesus himself received from John the Baptist. John the Baptist had the authority to perform the baptism ordinance, and he did so by immersion in the River Jordan. Baptism is a covenant with God, that you are willing to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and follow the commandments of God. Baptism demonstrates your willingness and desire to be forgiven of your sins. Thats why everybody needs to be baptized.
You were baptized allready were you? By immersion was it? What authority did the person who baptized you have? Where did he get it from?
Another good question to ask the [priest/bishop/deacon/whathaveyou] at a church your considering attending:
How much money do you make? Most of them will act very insulted and be offended, why? Cause most of them do make money and sometimes a lot of it and theres no way they wanna tell you or anyone else how much.
In my church nobody gets paid a dime. Not one person in the entire structure of the church is paid whatsoever.
But being saved from all the bad stuff we've done in this life, thats not so easy. Being saved from death is a free gift from God. To what degree of glory you live the rest of your eternity in, and what degree of power you have, that all depends on what you do in this life. The bible says to confess that Jesus is the Lord, but merely confessing isn' t enough. What the bible, and a lot of other religious volumes indicate is that you need to be baptized. Not just any baptism, but a real baptism like Jesus himself received from John the Baptist. John the Baptist had the authority to perform the baptism ordinance, and he did so by immersion in the River Jordan. Baptism is a covenant with God, that you are willing to accept Jesus Christ as your savior and follow the commandments of God. Baptism demonstrates your willingness and desire to be forgiven of your sins. Thats why everybody needs to be baptized.
You were baptized allready were you? By immersion was it? What authority did the person who baptized you have? Where did he get it from?
Another good question to ask the [priest/bishop/deacon/whathaveyou] at a church your considering attending:
How much money do you make? Most of them will act very insulted and be offended, why? Cause most of them do make money and sometimes a lot of it and theres no way they wanna tell you or anyone else how much.
In my church nobody gets paid a dime. Not one person in the entire structure of the church is paid whatsoever.
Well in my church the pastor gets paid by the members of the church. If they mark the pastor box on the offering envelope then the money would go to him and his family. The tithe, however, goes to church repairs, remodeling, equipment, ect... Ther is a lot of work going on right now. They have done a great job with what they've done already. My favorite is the 2 PS2's you can play after the youth service. We also have a PS1 and a Dreamcast. Our pastor isnt rich although he dose have a nice house with a pool and a few acres. He was telling me that money was getting tighter cuz his daughter is at college combined with the atithe he puts out every week, but wont stop titheing. I also think they need another car cuz their son has their 99 Accord and they only have the 2002 4 door civic left. The wife is a nurse, so it brings in extra cash, but still needs some. The reason for this is that the pay isnt too consistent every week.
Dareo-
"(9)That if tou confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.(10) For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" - Holy Bible (NIV)
Straight from the Word of God buddy. Also no where in the Bible does it say that you must be baptism. Although if you are a true Christian and you do it on tour own will (so its between you and God), i believe that baptism is what you should do to publicly announce your faith to other believers. I have been baptized. But it is definatly not neccesary.
"(9)That if tou confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.(10) For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved" - Holy Bible (NIV)
Straight from the Word of God buddy. Also no where in the Bible does it say that you must be baptism. Although if you are a true Christian and you do it on tour own will (so its between you and God), i believe that baptism is what you should do to publicly announce your faith to other believers. I have been baptized. But it is definatly not neccesary.